MikeKing
Full Member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2017
- Messages
- 5,125
- Supports
- Bournemouth
I don't like stereotypes. I'm more of a mono type myself.
Good posts, man. To be honest, I learn a lot from threads on the Caf about this issue. Thanks for posters like you who are willing to spend time engaging in a professional way.I agree. Calling someone racist shouldnt be taken lightly. Also in most cases the person isnt a racist or isnt even being called a racist. However once the word is used in any way, lets say someone is advised that something they have said has racist connotations then it seems that is taken as an accusation. We need to be able to get past that to have sensible discourse about such a conplex issue.
Apologies for the delay redlamb. Re the bolded. An important point missed here in the expected and predictable melee is that I called the thread in question as being full of casual racism. This was denied vehemently by a majority of posters, again not unexpectedly, whilst simultaneously showing a lack of understanding of the nature of casual racism as a form of racism itself. At no point have I called anyone a racist. They may be, they may not, I don't know this but what I have highlighted is, in my opinion, a high level of casual racism in that thread and also in matchday threads and in Lukaku's player performance thread. I've pointed out upthread how casual racism can manifest itself and how it can often be unintended or not meant as opposed to more overt racism. I also stated that we can all be guilty of it. I also stated early on that we can all be theoretically described as lazy irrespective of colour. This goes without saying.
There has been a "lazy black player" stereotype in football and as an older fan remember it well from the 70s onwards hence my reference to how far we have moved on since then. One of our former managers has been ostracised from the game for these very views. Is it as prevalent now? That was the question raised for me by the unending accusations of laziness directed at one player in particular. He may be lazy, he may not, but it is the insistent and consistent levelling of this particular accusation that resonated. It partly resonates because it comes in partnership with several other repeated accusations. One is that Lukaku is dumb, another is that he is fat, and another in that particular thread is that he is lying and untrustworthy. The repeated use of the "dumb" word is problematic for me also as for decades black people have been described as being dumb with the n-word attached as a chaser. Ir seems to me we've largely outlawed the n-word but a lot of the sentiment remains. Throughout that thread it's suggested that Lukaku's supposed dumbness has played it's part in him getting fat. His laziness also is implied as being a factor. So he's dumb, and he's lazy, he's fat and then according to multiple posters he's making excuses ie lying. In summary a thread on a Manchester United player develops over pages of what I interpret as casual racism to paint a picture that is, almost to a tee, a present day example of the Coon Caricature posted by @villain upthread (a good read) A black man employed for his physical prowess consistently described as dumb, fat, lazy, and untrustworthy because he is not performing to expectation.
So I should perhaps have titled the thread "Black player stereotypes" because the casual racism is much wider than mass and consistent accusations of laziness and there's the mob/pack dynamic to it. And the reason I spoke out was because, as this casual racism proceeded unchallenged, the inevitable happened. We got the black man is a gorilla post. Possibly still casual but so outrageous in 2018 that it would be difficult to not classify that as overt and intended and that's the end product of unchallenged, repeated casual racism.
I thought the talksport host was spot on. I'd not seen/heard that but he'd echo my views re the importance of the words we use, why we are using them and in what context. .
I find casual racism is rife on this board. It runs like a vein through the recent Raheem Sterling thread and is never far away from any thread, football or non football related, that touches on BAME players, people and culture. This thread is another example. It's a reflection of what I sense is the prevailing demographic on this board and the fury you get when you poke your head over the parapet and point out the issue isn't enough of a reason to keep silent and let it go. A baying mob decrying that this is an "attack on free speech" by an "extreme left winger" , "deflecting from real racism", "stirring" etc etc. It's probably just a small taste of what it's like to be black in a white man's world but then a lot of white folk have always got very upset when they get told how they should speak about black people.
We still have bananas being thrown at black players.
How dare you come on here, posting something sensible like thatPhil Jones constantly gets called unintelligent, David Beckham was labelled as thick, Berbatov was lazy.
If a black person said this about these three players would he be considered racist?
People are always looking for something to be offended about.
We've had a pretty horrendous post in the Lukaku thread comparing him to a gorilla. All very 1970s. What he also gets a lot of are accusations of laziness and of being dumb. Check out the performance thread - it does not make edifying reading.
Anyone can be lazy of course, irrespective of colour, but I made reference to black players long being subjected to far more accusations of this nature than their white counterparts. Not all, of course, but it happens and has been for a long time. Pointing out it's prevalence gets the usual response of "oh it's the PC brigade"
Black players have spoken at length about it this stuff about how they are only regarded as physical specimens lacking in intelligence and often the same work ethic as white players. Yet still it gets denied in places like this. Is the racism so casual and ingrained that the people participating aren't even aware of it?
I thought things had moved on from the 70's but maybe they haven't moved on a far as they should?
Awfully tempting to take a warning on the chin to post a gif!Wowzer.
Where's that Homer backing up into a hedge .gif again?
I want to ignore what's going to come, but I...just...can't...look...away...Awfully tempting to take a warning on the chin to post a gif!
For feck's sake.Well even if so, what's the problem? Black players are far more talented if it comes to physicallity, i think no one can deny that. They are usually faster, bigger and stronger. And it seems that white players are usually more intelligent. So what? In both cases there are of course exceptions, but have you seen many black players play like Iniesta, Xavi, Modric, Zidane, Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, etc.? I can't even name one black 'maestro' tbh. Maybe we could count Ronaldinho into this as the exception though.
Why is it racism if we say white players are more intelligent than black players, but it isn't racism if we say black players are physically more gifted (not only in sports btw...) than white players? It reminds me of german schools, when turkish kids say to german kids "you damn german!" and the german kid responds "you damn turk!", only the german kid is getting accused of racism. And i think that's bs.
This .. this is not going to go well.Well even if so, what's the problem? Black players are far more talented if it comes to physicallity, i think no one can deny that. They are usually faster, bigger and stronger. And it seems that white players are usually more intelligent. So what? In both cases there are of course exceptions, but have you seen many black players play like Iniesta, Xavi, Modric, Zidane, Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, etc.? I can't even name one black 'maestro' tbh. Maybe we could count Ronaldinho into this as the exception though.
Why is it racism if we say white players are more intelligent than black players, but it isn't racism if we say black players are physically more gifted (not only in sports btw...) than white players? It reminds me of german schools, when turkish kids say to german kids "you damn german!" and the german kid responds "you damn turk!", only the german kid is getting accused of racism. And i think that's bs.
I want to ignore what's going to come, but I...just...can't...look...away...
Well even if so, what's the problem? Black players are far more talented if it comes to physicallity, i think no one can deny that. They are usually faster, bigger and stronger. And it seems that white players are usually more intelligent. So what? In both cases there are of course exceptions, but have you seen many black players play like Iniesta, Xavi, Modric, Zidane, Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, etc.? I can't even name one black 'maestro' tbh. Maybe we could count Ronaldinho into this as the exception though.
Why is it racism if we say white players are more intelligent than black players, but it isn't racism if we say black players are physically more gifted (not only in sports btw...) than white players? It reminds me of german schools, when turkish kids say to german kids "you damn german!" and the german kid responds "you damn turk!", only the german kid is getting accused of racism. And i think that's bs.
Don't even know where to start....Well even if so, what's the problem? Black players are far more talented if it comes to physicallity, i think no one can deny that. They are usually faster, bigger and stronger. And it seems that white players are usually more intelligent. So what? In both cases there are of course exceptions, but have you seen many black players play like Iniesta, Xavi, Modric, Zidane, Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, etc.? I can't even name one black 'maestro' tbh. Maybe we could count Ronaldinho into this as the exception though.
Why is it racism if we say white players are more intelligent than black players, but it isn't racism if we say black players are physically more gifted (not only in sports btw...) than white players? It reminds me of german schools, when turkish kids say to german kids "you damn german!" and the german kid responds "you damn turk!", only the german kid is getting accused of racism. And i think that's bs.
And we are back in the 70s...Well even if so, what's the problem? Black players are far more talented if it comes to physicallity, i think no one can deny that. They are usually faster, bigger and stronger. And it seems that white players are usually more intelligent. So what? In both cases there are of course exceptions, but have you seen many black players play like Iniesta, Xavi, Modric, Zidane, Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, etc.? I can't even name one black 'maestro' tbh. Maybe we could count Ronaldinho into this as the exception though.
Why is it racism if we say white players are more intelligent than black players, but it isn't racism if we say black players are physically more gifted (not only in sports btw...) than white players? It reminds me of german schools, when turkish kids say to german kids "you damn german!" and the german kid responds "you damn turk!", only the german kid is getting accused of racism. And i think that's bs.
Out of interest, where does this end for you, in terms of the spectrum of intelligence?Well even if so, what's the problem? Black players are far more talented if it comes to physicallity, i think no one can deny that. They are usually faster, bigger and stronger. And it seems that white players are usually more intelligent. So what? In both cases there are of course exceptions, but have you seen many black players play like Iniesta, Xavi, Modric, Zidane, Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, etc.? I can't even name one black 'maestro' tbh. Maybe we could count Ronaldinho into this as the exception though.
Why is it racism if we say white players are more intelligent than black players, but it isn't racism if we say black players are physically more gifted (not only in sports btw...) than white players? It reminds me of german schools, when turkish kids say to german kids "you damn german!" and the german kid responds "you damn turk!", only the german kid is getting accused of racism. And i think that's bs.
To be honest i don't want to go that deep. I am not here to talk about politics, just about football. Shouldn't have said anything in this thread i guess.Out of interest, where does this end for you, in terms of the spectrum of intelligence?
So if white players are usually more intelligent in football, does that mean that footballing intelligence is an innate trait? Like your lung capacity, speed, strength etc? If so, why do you think white players have it and others don't?
And where does this end, as I asked above? Would you say white people are more intelligent in general than black people? I guess, going by your example, most countries which have majority white populations have some kind of democracy and good living standards for their citizens while most countries with majority black populations...do not. And is there a difference between North Europeans and South? Why have the USA/Australia/ NZ come out how they have while Colombia, Bolivia and Venezuela have come out the way they have? So is there an innate level of difference in your opinion between the intelligence of white and black people? North and South European?
And if you don't think the above, why and how is it different for football?
Wow! Just wow! This place may as well be renamed StormfrontCafe or something now.Well even if so, what's the problem? Black players are far more talented if it comes to physicallity, i think no one can deny that. They are usually faster, bigger and stronger. And it seems that white players are usually more intelligent. So what? In both cases there are of course exceptions, but have you seen many black players play like Iniesta, Xavi, Modric, Zidane, Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, etc.? I can't even name one black 'maestro' tbh. Maybe we could count Ronaldinho into this as the exception though.
Why is it racism if we say white players are more intelligent than black players, but it isn't racism if we say black players are physically more gifted (not only in sports btw...) than white players? It reminds me of german schools, when turkish kids say to german kids "you damn german!" and the german kid responds "you damn turk!", only the german kid is getting accused of racism. And i think that's bs.
It seems to me that all the white players you mentioned aren’t blessed with much pace or physical prowess so maybe had no choice but to learn the other side of the game. If you’ve got that built into your skill set already, maybe it means you tend to focus on that, who knows? I’m just thinking out loud really.To be honest i don't want to go that deep. I am not here to talk about politics, just about football. Shouldn't have said anything in this thread i guess.
Maybe even intelligence is the wrong wording in this case. Maybe it's about vision or whatever. I don't know the physical reason, or if there even is a reason but my point is: Why is it, that the great 'maestros' in this game, known for their intelligence/vision/whatever on the pitch, are mostly white players? I mean players such as Iniesta, Xavi, Zidane, Modric, Kroos, etc. Except of maybe Ronaldinho, there comes no player into my mind which is comparable to them in that topic. At least not since i watch football. I haven't seen the likes of Pele etc.
It was not meant to be a 'gotcha' question. I am genuinely interested in your thought process and I don't feel that aggressively attacking people solves anything or changes anything.To be honest i don't want to go that deep. I am not here to talk about politics, just about football. Shouldn't have said anything in this thread i guess.
Maybe even intelligence is the wrong wording in this case. Maybe it's about vision or whatever. I don't know the physical reason, or if there even is a reason but my point is: Why is it, that the great 'maestros' in this game, known for their intelligence/vision/whatever on the pitch, are mostly white players? I mean players such as Iniesta, Xavi, Zidane, Modric, Kroos, etc. Except of maybe Ronaldinho, there comes no player into my mind which is comparable to them in that topic. At least not since i watch football. I haven't seen the likes of Pele etc.
He looks pretty white to me.Also Zidane is not white.
Some of the posts in here are getting dangerously close to the pseudo-science of differences in racial IQ perpetrated especially in the early 20th century.despite the fact this lads post is going to be picked apart, somewhere in there is a fair point. If you were to devise a list of quick minded, forward thinking, creative style “maestro” (as he put it) type players then I would have to say the vast majority of them in my lifetime would be white. Is there a correlation of racial intelligence in general to football? I would say no. As I believe Asians are considered to have the highest IQ in general more so than whites or blacks and yet Asian football is a long way behind European football.
They're both of Algerian descent and I doubt would self classify as white.He looks pretty white to me.
Someone claimed on here not long ago that Benzema wasn’t white. Is this a French/Algerian thing?
That’s opening a whole different discussion into what race is I guess. Is it literally what colour you are, or what you feel like?They're both of Algerian descent and I doubt would self classify as white.
Perhaps more importantly, especially if those players did not play football, I doubt most French would see them as white.
It is all about where you grow up playing, as an example there are very few of the "Maestro" types that you talk about from England because historically England youth teams have been encouraged to play a direct game which is devoid of intricate passing and does not necessarily foster great technical ability. There are of course outliers such as Carrick and Hoddle.despite the fact this lads post is going to be picked apart, somewhere in there is a fair point. If you were to devise a list of quick minded, forward thinking, creative style “maestro” (as he put it) type players then I would have to say the vast majority of them in my lifetime would be white. Is there a correlation of racial intelligence in general to football? I would say no. As I believe Asians are considered to have the highest IQ in general more so than whites or blacks and yet Asian football is a long way behind European football.
Zidane is not white. If he were not a footballer and was just living in the rough neighbourhood he grew up in, he would not be treated the same as Clement in most areas of his life.That’s opening a whole different discussion into what race is I guess. Is it literally what colour you are, or what you feel like?
I’m probably gonna go with the first one though.
How is Zidane not white?They're both of Algerian descent and I doubt would self classify as white.
Perhaps more importantly, especially if those players did not play football, I doubt most French would see them as white.
Burt Reynolds was part Native AmericanZidane's dad looks a bit like Burt Reynolds.