What does this mean? He's not white because he isn't. Read his Wiki.How is Zidane not white?
The "lazy black player" stereotype
- Thread starter Barca84
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You'd say that because you're spewing the same racist bullshit that he was, in more or less the same words.
I know his descent. What constitutes white people? Only practicing orthodox Christians?
With respect, I'm not sure how many more times I can say this.How is Zidane not white?
Zidane is a full Algerian berber, with a berber name and berber heritage. The fact he is pale skinned does not make him white (or perhaps better and more accurate to say Caucasian) and if he did not have the good fortune to become a famous footballer, would certainly be seen as an Arab rather than a white European in France, whether it came to face to face interactions or applying for jobs with the name Zinedine.
Yeah but you’re trying to apply logic to racists, which isn’t something I’d say they were known for. Just because they’d treat someone differently based on their nationality, does that mean that person isn’t white? Black English people get racially abused all the time in England, as I know you’re aware, but they’re still English. It doesn’t change anything. Idiots treating you like an outsider doesn’t change the fact you’re still one of them.
I’m not French or black so what the hell do I know, I just can’t get my head around the fact that I’m looking at a white man who isn’t white because he’s not from a white mans country.
The list of players in mention is from someone else’s post, someone I was merely defending as I don’t think he had particularly bad intentions in what he was saying. And yes absolutely the conditions of which you have to play football under and the coaching plays a big part in the style of player you will become. It’s ironic that you mention Rio though who undoubtedly was a very intelligent footballer as somewhere within the thread is the debate of black players being labelled as athletes and not credited for intelligence like their white counterparts, which in the case of Rio doesn’t stand up as he was widely lorded for his incredible reading of the game, intelligence and athleticism.
With all respect, Zidane is born in France and is a non practicing Muslim.
This is his parents:
By definition:
Zidane has all the traits of being closer to the Caucasian race than any other. If you apply other definitions:
In any case just being from berberian descent doesn't make him non-caucasian by definition.
Car crash of a thread.
Yes well done. I tried to help out someone who I don’t believe is trying to be racist and was clearly about to be savaged by pointing out that there was a a bit of logic or factual basis behind one sentence of his fifty sentence post and now I’m apparently a racist.
Asian football is a long way behind for obvious reasons but in time it will catch up as the game grows in countries like China and India. You’ve got a point about the majority of “maestro” style players being white, whether thats down to coincidence or not I don’t know.
The countries that are best in terms of developing talent are mostly white and that's the biggest reason if you ask me. Germany, Italy, Spain, UK, Argentina, Brazil (only 7% currently are constituted as blacks) - generally countries with predominantly white population.
I dunno, is there a "Liberal of the Year" award that everyone's competing for?
The black man with a huge penis myth came about because old timey racists would refere to black men as aminalistic, sub human, driven only by lust. It’s all part the dehumanising racism that spurred hatred for black men on. Ie, a black man with his huge swinging cock is a sexual threat only caring about his own lustful wants. So while it may seem like a complimentary bit of harmless stereotyping, it’s actually quite fecked up.
Thing is, I'm actually not and I think it brings us back quite nicely to what I think was one of the main points of the OP of this thread, which is the subconscious ways we can view those of other races. I'm not talking about your typical 'racist' who maybe goes around shouting racial slurs, saying the Poles need to get out of England or whatever. Those are in a minority, vocal and obvious. I am talking about the insidious racism which people probably don't even necessarily realise is happening.
Luckily, the guardian have recently done a whole series of articles on exactly this topic so it saves me having to dig for a while for some older ones.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/series/bias-in-britain
A whole series of excellent articles there which would take a while to peruse. So I'll quote the most relevant bit for this discussion I guess:
In France in 2016, a consulting firm commissioned by the labour ministry sent out 3,000 applications for 1,500 jobs advertised by 40 companies in six cities. It found that 47% of candidates with “traditional” French names got interviews, compared with 36% of those with north African names.
More recently, in 2009 the government carried out its own exercise, sending out nearly 3,000 job applications under three false identities – Nazia Mahmood, Mariam Namagembe and Alison Taylor, designed to represent Asian, African and white applicants respectively.
The study – the first to move largely to online applications – found that an applicant who appeared to be white would send nine applications before receiving a positive response of either an invitation to an interview or an encouraging telephone call. Minority candidates with the same qualifications and experience had to send 16 applications before receiving a similar response.
Last year the BBC’s Inside Out London sent out CVs from two candidates, Adam and Mohamed, who had identical skills and experience, in response to 100 job opportunities. Adam was offered 12 interviews and Mohamed four.
The study – the first to move largely to online applications – found that an applicant who appeared to be white would send nine applications before receiving a positive response of either an invitation to an interview or an encouraging telephone call. Minority candidates with the same qualifications and experience had to send 16 applications before receiving a similar response.
Last year the BBC’s Inside Out London sent out CVs from two candidates, Adam and Mohamed, who had identical skills and experience, in response to 100 job opportunities. Adam was offered 12 interviews and Mohamed four.
Similar studies have been carried out overseas, yielding similar results. In a 2016 study, 1,600 CVs were sent to employers in 16 metropolitan areas in the US. Among African American candidates, 25% of résumés that were “whitened” to remove any indication of minority ethnicity received callbacks, compared with 10% of those left unaltered. Among Asian applicants, 21% heard back after they had changed their résumé and 11% if not.
And there are loads more similar examples from this article in particular, which is the source for the above
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...a-name-how-mystery-shopping-studies-show-bias
So Nazia Mahmood may well be white than Alison Taylor. Mohammed may well be whiter than Adam and Zindedine or Riyad may be whiter than Thierry. But when it really comes down to it, they are not treated as white. And not by racists only but on a day to day basis, most likely by those as above who I reckon have no idea they're discriminating in any way at all.
And of course Black English people can be English. We're not white though and are never treated as such, regardless of how we act. I guess in a similar way to how Obama is just as white as he is black, how he was actually raised by his white mum and white grandparents but is still always the first black president, not the 44th white one.
Besides, weren't the 1998 WC winning French team hailed by the French as 'black, blanc, beur'? Not black, blanc? And were there not stories about the French authorities discussing imposing a 30% quota on black and Arab players? This would be a strange thing to do if they saw Benzema, Zidane, Nasri (who is one of the palest people I've ever seen) and Rami the same as they saw Lloris, Pavard and Giroud?
Right, I never said he and his family weren't light skinned though. As I said, my mother in law is incredibly pale, despite being Egyptian. She married a Dutch man and my wife is similarly very pale but has an Arab first name which marks her out quite clearly. Especially when people find out her name, the treatment changes.
I also didn't mention anything about his religion or place of birth. Pogba was also born in France, though does happen to be a practicing Muslim apparetly but I don't think anybody would call him white. My statements were never anything to do with his place of birth or religion.
I think you've shown the problem with the definition there and of itself. I am not talking about the classical definition of caucasian, which by the above would include all of the following:
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I think it is quite obvious that today most people would not use caucasian in that context but would use it in the context of white Europeans or people of white European descent. If you wish to use the official definition, then yes, I guess Zidane does share caucasian ancestry with all of the above.
The Americans do class Arabs as 'white' on their census, despite repeated efforts, over years and years, from those very same Arab and Middle Eastern communities, to have a different, distinct category on the census. It is something the bureau have been considering and something they have become more open to of late.
Having said all this, I have no idea why a throwaway comment, completely meaningless to my actual point or indeed the point of this thread, has become the focus of discussion here.
If your truth is "...white players are more intelligent than black players."Or as most people like to call it, telling the truth
And you have the audacity to use green smilies to support such comments! Wow!
The reference to Shearer was in response to the suggestion that if Alan Shearer says Lukaku is lazy then he must be. I'm not sure that Shearer even used that term but if he did it doesn't suddenly legitimise anything.
No if you read the post I quoted, he clearly said the majority of those “maestro” type players are white, which is true and as someone rightly pointed out above, this is largely due to the countries best know for developing talent are predominantly white. But no, don’t bother reading whats posted and just cry racism.If your truth is "...white players are more intelligent than black players."
And you have the audacity to use green smilies to support such comments! Wow!
Here's a reasonable explanation of what casual racism is from top of a google search
https://itstopswithme.humanrights.gov.au/what-can-you-do/speak/casual-racism
A good example would probably be the post we've just had from @OutlawGER I suspect he's not intended to say anything offensive, and alludes to his own lack of sensitivity, but unfortunately he has and has got flak for it.
Yep and it played it's part in the lynching of black men.
My point wasn't meant to be criticism by any means mate. However it is a problem nowadays that people are marked based purely on ancestry and name. People have become way too cosmopolitan to classify them based on single criteria and due to many mixed marriages the caucasian "definition" and family itself has grown immensely.Right, I never said he and his family weren't light skinned though. As I said, my mother in law is incredibly pale, despite being Egyptian. She married a Dutch man and my wife is similarly very pale but has an Arab first name which marks her out quite clearly. Especially when people find out her name, the treatment changes.
I also didn't mention anything about his religion or place of birth. Pogba was also born in France, though does happen to be a practicing Muslim apparetly but I don't think anybody would call him white. My statements were never anything to do with his place of birth or religion.
I think you've shown the problem with the definition there and of itself. I am not talking about the classical definition of caucasian, which by the above would include all of the following:
I think it is quite obvious that today most people would not use caucasian in that context but would use it in the context of white Europeans or people of white European descent. If you wish to use the official definition, then yes, I guess Zidane does share caucasian ancestry with all of the above.
The Americans do class Arabs as 'white' on their census, despite repeated efforts, over years and years, from those very same Arab and Middle Eastern communities, to have a different, distinct category on the census. It is something the bureau have been considering and something they have become more open to of late.
Having said all this, I have no idea why a throwaway comment, completely meaningless to my actual point or indeed the point of this thread, has become the focus of discussion here.
Apart from being pale skin he shares a lot of other traits that would make him as white as some other people from aryan or catalan types for example.
Either way we digress.
Perhaps you should read the post he's defending:
If you had already read this and are still trying to argue with me then I'm not gonna waste my time with you because there clearly is no point!
I've got too many warning points for this thread. Good
Massive post - one thing right. I don't view myself as any sort of victim.
Ozil is a poor choice here. He resigned from his national team for a specific reason..
https://www.ft.com/content/24d0d0aa-9196-11e8-b639-7680cedcc421
No Zlatan did not get the abuse Lukaku does - the amount of it or the terminology used. Neither did the much mentioned in this thread Berbatov who was equally often referred to as the term you've just used "languid" or "laid back" "mercurial" a "luxury player" etc etc The talksport host is spot on here.
All of those "dumb" Lukaku posts came in a thread not about his on field performance but about his body shape. There is a persistent inference that he's too "dumb" to look after himself. Oh and that he lies quite a lot too. No other players have routinely and persistently been referred to as "dumb" to the same extent. It's sinister. The man is thoughtful, intelligent and reflective in interview. And where does this idea that he's lying come from? What's it based on?
I've not said all black players are a victim of this stereotyping at any point. That would be absurd. I'm stating that it appears to be happening with Lukaku.
Big one this for you squish ...I've made this point about casual racism twice now and this is the third and last time I will do it. It is often unintentional and we can all be guilty of it. Being guilty of it doesn't necessarily make you a racist although obviously you could be.
The big question your post raises for me though is why do you insist on putting casual racism in quotation marks like that? That would suggest you deny it occurs and is not a real form racism that needs challenging. Why would you do that?
What a car crash of a thread. A lot of unconscious casual racism in this thread. Some posters asking whether calling a white player a gorilla would be as big of a deal? Ofcourse it wouldn't, because white people haven't been stereotyped and persecuted for decades based on their appearance.
That's why it's an isolated case (though classless) if bale is called an ape based on his appearance. Because it's very different from using stereotypes which are used to simplify and judge an entire race.
Also re: Lukaku. I don't understand the hatred here for him. Yeah he's been woeful this season but compared to the bang average players we have, he's shown that he has much higher ceiling and has actually consistently been a good goal scorer since a very young age in the PL. I don't think it's racism related of course, just something which puzzles me a lot.
That's why it's an isolated case (though classless) if bale is called an ape based on his appearance. Because it's very different from using stereotypes which are used to simplify and judge an entire race.
Also re: Lukaku. I don't understand the hatred here for him. Yeah he's been woeful this season but compared to the bang average players we have, he's shown that he has much higher ceiling and has actually consistently been a good goal scorer since a very young age in the PL. I don't think it's racism related of course, just something which puzzles me a lot.
Indeed people of colour give a shit about being seen as liberal
Yeah fair enough mate, I know you weren't trying to criticise.
Either way, like we said, probably deviating the thread a bit too far from its original op so let's agree to disagree!
In response to Prometheus once again sticking to his guns that i am being rasist defending this lads post. As I’ve already said I’m not defending his post, and already made it quite clear that I was pointing out that one particular point in there did hold some weight to it. That part being that the “maestro” style player has been predominantly white throughout history. I don’t agree with the rest of the post. For a start I could think of a number of “maestro” style black players with ease but still less so than white. I firmly believe as do others who have posted that this is the result of decades of majority white countries having more focus on football and better facilities for football. It has nothing to do what so ever with a perception that white people are more intelligent people and more intelligent footballers. I originally posted on this thread because I don’t believe lukaku should be exempt from being called lazy due to a historic racial stereotype, that’s my opinion. If you think he’s lazy you should feel free to call him lazy without there being a subliminal rasist undertone to it. Personally I don’t care what colour united players are, I couldn’t care less if every single player in the squad was black as long as they were playing well and represented the club with pride. Personally I find topics like this interesting and it’s a fine example of people of different races and cultures being able to discuss what differences they see or experience and could be used as a good way to learn from each other. But then in comes someone like you aggressively branding me racist for pointing out something factual with no malice, hate or predujice to it at all. And that’s the wrong attitude to have as its part of the problem of why topics like these turn out to be such sensitive subjects that most people choose to avoid them all together which in the end only segregates us all further.[/QUOTE]
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Yaya used to get this all the time at City. It was never true and it always drove me mad.
Why would you link a series of posts that you consider to be racists to your own comment about 'white lads'.
It appears you are making an assumption that these posts (that you suggest are racist) are written by 'white lads'. Your previous explanation appears to suggest that you are making generalised assumptions about individuals based on race
So you think that is acceptable?
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At his peak he was phenomenal. In his last two years he did become lazy.
He was always labelled as lazy for one. In his later years maybe he just didn't have the engine?
Sorry why is my post quoted here?
Just a reminder:
People care more about being called racist, than the actual racism itself.
To add to the collection;
People care more about being called racist, than the actual racism itself.
Apologies, my response to barca must have picked up a quote to a post that I never finished a response to. I'll edit
Haha I was getting a little confused
People care about both. Being described as a racist is a horrible slur. People have a right to be annoyed when it is thrown at them, particularly in the context of a debate when it is thrown at them during a reasoned discussion
Very true from my observations in life
I think its terrible to call someone a racist falsely, I don't think many times people are actually called racist though before they start defending themselves. This usually leads to not being able to have a discussion.