I'm sure Kante has been brought up numerous times already in this thread, so I'll add it and say, Kante.
The "lazy black player" stereotype
- Thread starter Barca84
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
7. White people, especially white women (because this is yaw specialty — Nosey Jenny and Meddling Kathy), get a racist fired. Yaw know what the feck they be saying. You are complicit when you ignore them. Get your boss fired cause they racist too.
I'm not sure though, is it a satirical article? It is right?
If not, erm,
This undercurrent has been around in both the Lukaku and Pogba threads for a while now.
This is the problem of identity politics. People are keen to segregate people I to different groups, then attempt to understand the world through that lens.
I'd rather treat people as unique individuals and take things from there. Best person for the job gets it, people clearly discriminating on racial grounds get sanctioned.....
Can we just agree that the guy is shite and should be jettisoned from the club asap.
Because you are missing the point. This is not just about the obvious racism, that nobody can miss, for example calling someone a gorilla. This is about a much more subtle kind of racism, about stereotyping without using slurs.
Just because someone doesn’t use slurs, doesn’t mean he’s not racist.
The issue here is, that this is incredibly difficult to proof. Which is why this is such a tiring and annoying discussion. Because it basically ends with one side being ignorantly happy, because nobody will be able to proof racism and the other side feeling left alone and not being taking seriously.
I know that side incredibly well due to my sexuality. If you are a minority, you experience disenfranchisement and discrimination on a near daily basis. But very seldomly can you point at someone and say: „he’s racist. He said this.“
That‘s just not how it works. So many people will tell you, there is no homophobia, racism or antisemitism. And it gets to a point where some victims of discrimination actually believe it themselves. But then you start to wonder why people treat you the way they do. Why you are always the lazy one, the dangerous one and so on.
The racism that is talked about here, is a racism of expectations and being put in your place. For POC that means having to work much harder to proof yourself. It means having to give it everything you can, whenever you can, being the best version of yourself all the time, dancing on eggshells all the time and the best thing you can hope for, is some sort of acceptance, that might never be the same another person would get.
In football, the best thing a black player can aspire to, is basically being a good teammate, hard worker and physically imposing. In order to be acknowledged as a creative and intelligent player, you have to be exceptional. You have to be so good, people have no other choice but to acknowledge your greatness. And that‘s obviously racism.
But you won’t find a single person you can point to as the guilty party. There is no obvious racist, insulting you everywhere you go. There are just the coaches who will love your athleticism, your strength and your speed. Who will teach you accordingly to those stereotypes.
And this is why POC are seen the way they are. It’s a sort of self fulfilling prophecy. It’s why there are so few black QB‘s in the NFL. So few black coaches everywhere, so few black playmakers in football and so few black goalkeepers. They put you in your place all your life. They take away your choice, your possibility to be more than just that. Not through sole incidents of overwhelming racism, but due to many, many small and subtle stereotypes, that basically control your life. And it’s not just England it the US. A guy like Boateng had to put in years of complete brilliance at his position, before he was regarded as the incredible player he is. He was criticized for his lack of bull up play during a time, where he might have been the very best in this discipline worldwide.
And whenever people talk about it, ignorant people will tell them, that nobody called them a gorilla. Or wielded a swastika around them, or beat them up because they are just a fag. But it’s still there and we need to be conscious about it, so we can do better.
These people aren’t lying. What they experience is true. We should listen and think about the way, that we conduct ourselves. Otherwise we’re part of the problem.
And no, calling a POC lazy is not necessarily racist. But we tend to attribute negative and positive (also harmful) stereotypes to people all the time, because of the way they look. And that‘s racist. And Lukaku, Pogba and Sterling aren’t lazy. At least not any bit more than comparable players. Yet they have this stigma attached to them all the time. That’s racist.
Whats race got to do,got to do with it,
Whats race ? When the twat plays in slow motion!!
Whats race ? When the twat plays in slow motion!!
"Do the research yourself"?. Come come, Bola, you've changed your tune!
Come on mate, I know from your other posts that you don't place any trust in anecdotal evidence - you demand statistics... you just told me so. One article is not a statistic, is it?
Remember the claim we're looking at is that:
So to meet your own standards what I'm going to need from you is a study showing that a statistically significant proportion of anti-racist groups aren't anti-racist. I know that you wouldn't have made those claims in the first place if you didn't already have those statistics at your disposal, because those are your principles, right? So why the delay in giving me the statistics?Bola said:
I agree there's racism, obviously, but calling Lukaku fat and not so smart isn't racist, it's stating the bleeding obvious, if we're not allowed to call a black player shit/overweight/thick then that's racist in its self.
@crossy1686 that silver back gorilla comment (I didn't see it, and haven't really been in player performances threads) was a little daft, but doesn't make it racist, could be taken in that context, so the poster shouldn't have used that analogy.
I'm highlighting a pattern of attitude and behaviour to a black player that is consistent in displaying certain beliefs that some non black people have held about black people historically and to this day. Now in no way am I saying that everyone quoted is a card carrying KKK member but it shows, in just that snapshot, that for some reason this player is believed to be fat, lazy, stupid, untrustworthy and a liar by many people. And the amount of people who believe Lukaku is all these things seems significant. These are all traits attributed to black people over the years from the days of the cotton plantation so the question should be asked.
I've made the accusation that casual racism is significant in that thread and on this board. It is one form of racism, not necessarily particularly overt, and is often unintended. Some people can't work out why the Lukaku song is racial stereotyping and hence why it shouldn't be sung. We've had further reference to Lukaku's cock in that thread, and this one - it's a another racial myth and stereotype.
We can all be guilty of casual racism. Negative stereotypes and prejudices are a manifestation of it and I think there's significant evidence of that here on the caf. Downplaying it or allowing the predictable "oh no it's the pc brigade" to shout objections down shouldn't be an option.
That individual who called Lukaku a "gorilla" is not updated with the modern online racist mob. How to be a smart racist in 2018? You call the guy a gorilla, but in the next phrase you say:" watch the pc brigade accusing me of racism".
See? You can generalize entire cultures, races, countries, pointing out only their negative aspects from your point of view. You can call them dirty, rats, people who "will bring diseases", you can dehumanize 70% of mankind, but if you call yourself a "redpilled", a defensor of freedom or western values anti-pc you are still a "good boy" and mama would be proud.
See? You can generalize entire cultures, races, countries, pointing out only their negative aspects from your point of view. You can call them dirty, rats, people who "will bring diseases", you can dehumanize 70% of mankind, but if you call yourself a "redpilled", a defensor of freedom or western values anti-pc you are still a "good boy" and mama would be proud.
First of all. People claiming there's no racism or homophobia in the world are, for lack of a better word, fecking morons.
I entirely agree with your post. Not all racism is obvious and in most cases an individual can brush his casual racism aside with a simple, I didn't call him lazy because he's black, I just called him lazy because he doesn't run a lot.
The problem is that you should be able to call someone lazy regardless of his skin color if he is actually lazy. That's why to me, this debate isn't so much irritating, as it is almost impossible to navigate. Because I understand completely where you are coming from, but still cannot for the life of me accept that you can not call Lukaku lazy without being a racist at the same time. And that's not a position I can really defend since I am a straight white guy from western Europe and have never faced racism, prejudice, etc.
This thread really has less and less to do with football with each next post
No. It's racist. Whether he intended it to be racist or not is another matter but in this day and age that's as clumsy an analogy as you can make.
If it is satirical, then its based on a YouTube clip from a BLM senior member who made 10 claims that were racially structured.7. White people, especially white women (because this is yaw specialty — Nosey Jenny and Meddling Kathy), get a racist fired. Yaw know what the feck they be saying. You are complicit when you ignore them. Get your boss fired cause they racist too.
I'm not sure though, is it a satirical article? It is right?
If not, erm,
That's the best I can do for you my friend. Maybe I'll give you a Harvard referenced thesis if you give me your stats first...... or maybe I won't ;-)
Joking aside and back to your original point, I've not seen the issue you claim about being any different from non-black players. Grealish and Shaw being examples of players skated for their lifestyles when underperforming. Maybe there is a bigger issues, but I've not see evidence of it........yet (unlike the claim of mine you be highlighted, where I've personally seen bias of 'pressure groups' in promoting the interests of a certain grouping of people).
What is defintely wrong is the unjust targeting of players by the media. Sterling is the classic example of someone who is effectively getting harrassed by the media, with a raft of undue criticism that I think is unrelated to his performances. Rooney and Beckham were earlier examples. Lazy media who are trying to sell headlines, rather than give us insights into the game
The point of your thread is clear to me and there's no attempt to downplay its existence.
What I'm asking is quite simple, unless you have something to back you up, do not quote posters and accuse them of being white folks who are racist. Calling Lukaku fat or lazy isn't racist. Calling him a gorilla is. There's a very simple difference.
So a black player could do feck all, but should not be called lazy or incompetent or fat, because some racists in history have used those terms against black people.
In short, it is ok that we could call Rooney and Shaw fat feckers, but not Lukaku.
Don't you see the hypocrisy??
You can. But you should be sensible about it. Ask yourself why you make an accusation like this beforehand. Most people don’t, that’s the issue.
On what do you base your assessment of Lukaku‘s intelligence? He comes across as quite clever to me.
I thought it was the more fatter footballers or the more slower footballers that were stereotyped as lazy.
Heck even the ones who’s style of play is be more relaxed and composed like Berbatov was, got branded lazy.
I don’t think I’ve even heard of that trope of lazy because of skin colour, and I’d be saying they were being satirical and/or funny in some way.
Heck even the ones who’s style of play is be more relaxed and composed like Berbatov was, got branded lazy.
I don’t think I’ve even heard of that trope of lazy because of skin colour, and I’d be saying they were being satirical and/or funny in some way.
That fact he doesn't makes the correct runs? A play during the Fulham game stood out for me, when Martial (possibly Lingard) passed the ball and if he had left the ball run and chased after it, he'd have been through on goal, but he didn't.
On a football forum when someone calls a player stupid, it means their football IQ, not their general IQ.
Him consistently being called fat, lazy and dumb above all others is a pretty solid indicator that this board might just have an issue with casual racism. And I d say that theory is backed up with plenty of evidence in other unrelated threads. Are you aware of the difference between casual racism and other more overt forms of it? It certainly is not simple and is far more nuanced than you appear to be aware of.
That's not what I've said and there is zero hypocrisy.
It is generally the taller/heavier set players that get accused of laziness. Particularly targetmen like Lukaku (Ibra got shit for his languid style of play for years, constantly branded lazy).
Quite a lot of strikers have had that label to be honest, Berbatov being another good example. The traditional CF role requires less work rate and you're generally meant to provide a focal point so don't want to be caught out of position too often (this has changed with the more fluid, modern game but plenty of teams still use that focal point) so I do think this gets mistaken as laziness sometimes. People wanting the striker to run around all day long which in a lot of sides would just mean very little presence in the box.
With Lukaku though, he genuinely just lacks any energy this season. He doesn't even make the effort to run in behind. People are calling him lazy because he's being lazy, it's nothing more insidious than that. If he was white and showing the same level of commitment and energy, do people genuinely think he wouldn't be getting called out? He's a striker not scoring goals who also spends most of his time strolling about the pitch. I honestly have no idea what the feck people expect people to call him.
He's getting accused of being both.
fecking hell, some of these comments are disgraceful. Now I realise why you created the thread.
I don't even pick up on them when I casually go through the threads.
Well he is lazy this season, and hasn't the player himself admitted that as of now he is carrying too much weight and it is impacting his game?
I thought he was a hard worker and had the right attitude. Gorilla was a bit racially insensitive when considering the profile of the player and past usage against people of colour.
Incredibly disingenuous, false and frankly ignorant.
This isn't 'from BLM' nor are they affiliating themselves to BLM. They've provided links for the reader to contribute to a fund, but in no way does this writer represent BLM or their stance.
The writer doesn't even attribute herself to BLM in anyway; https://twitter.com/ChanelleHelm
All this serves is to deflect attention from what BLM is actually trying to achieve. I could quite easily form a faction called 'BLM South England' and practice hate-speech doesn't mean it holds legitimacy as any subsidiary of BLM.
Jesus christ, how many times do I need to point out that the point of the thread is fine?
You cannot quote a specific poster calling him fat and brand him a racist because the board may have a casual racism problem. How is this tough to grasp?
Are you saying they’re disgraceful in the sense that it’s harsh criticism, or disgraceful in the sense that they’re racist? You could literally go through any United players thread black/white over the past few years and find similar abuse. Most of those players won’t have threads like this created for them though, because that would be literally insane.
Or down to the fact he runs around a lot which is highly valued in English football, and has won titles commanding 2 different midfields, so is actually a top player. I feel you are reaching a bit here. people in England prefer footballers in general to be more humble and less flashy as they think it winds up the fans.
You are reaching incredibly now, you can easily can accuse people as racists like its nothing, but you should be called out for stirring.
These things have been directed at Luke Shaw as well just as much in the last few years. Lukaku has been sh!t, and has a issue with his gaining too much "muscle", but anyone making fun of this is a racist.
He’s not lazy
Just sluggish and unable to win nearly any 50/50 In the air or on ground.
Poor first touch too. And too heavy
Color irrelevant
Just sluggish and unable to win nearly any 50/50 In the air or on ground.
Poor first touch too. And too heavy
Color irrelevant
Absolutely. But at the same time the line is so blurred nowadays that people get accused as being racists for saying the most trivial of things, that we've reached a point where it's better for some not to say anything at all for fear of being labeled a racist. I think that's also a problem.
It's hard to imagine a player complaining about fans singing about his 'huge penis'.
All the more reason to say something, or else free speech will be completely dead, which is what many extreme left wing folk want. It's when we stay silent that these absolute lunatics win.
Not this again. There are clear colonial roots of the racial fetishism of black men and the song was rightly called out for being racist. That said, as a person of East Asian stock, in my humble opinion the Park chant is also as racist and as far as I know it never got called out.
I know I'm digressing here, but I personally feel there's a bit of hypocrisy on how liberal Western folks view racism.
THANK YOU
It's a contemporary issue that transcends this board. And you've lost the plot and have swung from trying to address it here to going on some sort of witch hunt that does nothing but support those criticizing the whole movement against institutional and casual or subconscious racism. It doesn't sound like you're really appreciating how adversely you are affecting the cause you supposedly support...some of your posts sound almost satirical of late, like you are making fun of people that cry racism too often. That's how bad it is.
Conceptually what you are trying to highlight isn't very challenging at all. It's not always totally obvious to everyone, but even so it's still a very basic concept. But challenging the merits of the argument doesn't mean people don't understand what you are trying to say. I think this is one of the weaknesses of people who argue from a "progressive" perspective often have. They think people don't understand the basic concept and have difficulty accepting that those who don't always accept it aren't either stupid or bigoted.
I'm aware of the origin. That said I find it hard to imagine a player complaining about song because it refers to his 'huge penis'.
In a further digression...a minor bugbear of mine is how this use of the term 'Western' has grown in recent times; as if the 'West' is one big homogenous block.