A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

cjj

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If you don’t bother to actually know about the conversation you partake in, it’s pretty pointless to expand any further. I understand talking about your manager leaving for another club in the same league is a touchy subject for you lot though, but other Spurs fans could do it.

You can start from here and work your way through.
I have done. You don't seem willing to accept that there is a scenario that exists where it simply is not possible for United to sign Pochettino. I, and other spurs fans, are more than willing to discuss the topic in realistic terms, but there seem to be very few United fans who are willing to forgo the type of entitlement that belongs in the mid-90's.

Pochettino has his flaws, and is still learning, which is practically one of the reasons why he hasn't won anything. The reality is that the only type of manager that will survive at United (imo) is one like Solksjaer or Giggs, whose club connections will entitle them to more excuses from the fans if things don't go well.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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I have done. You don't seem willing to accept that there is a scenario that exists where it simply is not possible for United to sign Pochettino. I, and other spurs fans, are more than willing to discuss the topic in realistic terms, but there seem to be very few United fans who are willing to forgo the type of entitlement that belongs in the mid-90's.

Pochettino has his flaws, and is still learning, which is practically one of the reasons why he hasn't won anything. The reality is that the only type of manager that will survive at United (imo) is one like Solksjaer or Giggs, whose club connections will entitle them to more excuses from the fans if things don't go well.
I have no opinion either way on whether Pocchetino want to come to United or not. I simply pointed out that if he does then it won’t matter what Levy asks for, the price of buying out his contract won’t be the astronomical amount stated, because he wouldn’t want a manager who has his heart elsewhere being in charge of the team. If he doesn’t then we simply don’t get to that stage.
 

Dec9003

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Entitlement that belongs in the mid-90's, because United and Tottenham have been equals this century. lol
 

Dec9003

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Even in our worst period in 30 odd years, United have won more trophies than Spurs.
Exactly, we're only 4 points off them currently after having just beaten them recently, along with knocking them out the FA cup last season and finishing above them last season. If we wanted Pochettino you'd have to imagine he'd be interested given we can give him things Tottenham for all their recent success simply can't.
 

cjj

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I have no opinion either way on whether Pocchetino want to come to United or not. I simply pointed out that if he does then it won’t matter what Levy asks for, the price of buying out his contract won’t be the astronomical amount stated, because he wouldn’t want a manager who has his heart elsewhere being in charge of the team. If he doesn’t then we simply don’t get to that stage.
You don't know (or have observed) Daniel Levy very well then. He has, historically, been more than happy to let expensive players rot in the reserves, rather than 'cut his losses'. If push came to shove, like I said, he would simply put him on gardening duty whereby he would still not be able to take up alternative employment without settlement (likely significant settlement, too, not just contractual). As Pochettino has said before, there is no buyout clause in his contract, and you can bet your bottom that Levy has a significant amount of power should another team make an approach - something that Redknapp complained a lot about when he was hawking for the England job. He's got form for it.

Entitlement that belongs in the mid-90's, because United and Tottenham have been equals this century. lol
Even in our worst period in 30 odd years, United have won more trophies than Spurs.
Exactly, we're only 4 points off them currently after having just beaten them recently, along with knocking them out the FA cup last season and finishing above them last season. If we wanted Pochettino you'd have to imagine he'd be interested given we can give him things Tottenham for all their recent success simply can't.
You're all missing the point and getting emotive. Fact is, United aren't a sole super-power in English football any more. You quite simply won't see a lot of movement between top-10 clubs, never mind top-6, because the PL isn't La Liga or the Bundesliga - all clubs are pretty flush, and there are at least 6 more than capable teams vying for CL spots (never mind the league). What a team has won in the past x years is simply not significant when it comes to competing in the current climate. Liverpool haven't won the league for donkeys, or a cup for some 6 years now, yet we all know that none of the top 4 would have a chance of swaying Klopp.

Whatever a rival team thinks it "can offer" is likely to be redundant - especially when the argument is contradictory. The point for Pochettino moving is often about transfers, yet what improvement would that really offer when he'll have seen some 7-8 years of managers getting handicapped by Ed and the Glaziers? The pattern generally suggests that at United you'll get an initial window or two of support, then you have to make do - at least at Spurs there are good reasons for it, and not just because of how it affects the clubs valuation (which seems to be the format Arsenal and Man United run on these days).

If Pochettino leaves at any point, it'll likely be for Real or PSG imo, but I don't think he'll choose either until he's later in his career, whereby he'll know it'll be a couple of seasons of money and trophies, prior to picking up the Argie job.
 

Suedesi

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You don't know (or have observed) Daniel Levy very well then. He has, historically, been more than happy to let expensive players rot in the reserves, rather than 'cut his losses'. If push came to shove, like I said, he would simply put him on gardening duty whereby he would still not be able to take up alternative employment without settlement (likely significant settlement, too, not just contractual). As Pochettino has said before, there is no buyout clause in his contract, and you can bet your bottom that Levy has a significant amount of power should another team make an approach - something that Redknapp complained a lot about when he was hawking for the England job. He's got form for it.





You're all missing the point and getting emotive. Fact is, United aren't a sole super-power in English football any more. You quite simply won't see a lot of movement between top-10 clubs, never mind top-6, because the PL isn't La Liga or the Bundesliga - all clubs are pretty flush, and there are at least 6 more than capable teams vying for CL spots (never mind the league). What a team has won in the past x years is simply not significant when it comes to competing in the current climate. Liverpool haven't won the league for donkeys, or a cup for some 6 years now, yet we all know that none of the top 4 would have a chance of swaying Klopp.

Whatever a rival team thinks it "can offer" is likely to be redundant - especially when the argument is contradictory. The point for Pochettino moving is often about transfers, yet what improvement would that really offer when he'll have seen some 7-8 years of managers getting handicapped by Ed and the Glaziers? The pattern generally suggests that at United you'll get an initial window or two of support, then you have to make do - at least at Spurs there are good reasons for it, and not just because of how it affects the clubs valuation (which seems to be the format Arsenal and Man United run on these days).

If Pochettino leaves at any point, it'll likely be for Real or PSG imo, but I don't think he'll choose either until he's later in his career, whereby he'll know it'll be a couple of seasons of money and trophies, prior to picking up the Argie job.
That worked out well for Spurs that season, missing out on top 4 and getting rid of Harry soon thereafter.
 

Random Task

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I have done. You don't seem willing to accept that there is a scenario that exists where it simply is not possible for United to sign Pochettino. I, and other spurs fans, are more than willing to discuss the topic in realistic terms, but there seem to be very few United fans who are willing to forgo the type of entitlement that belongs in the mid-90's.

Pochettino has his flaws, and is still learning, which is practically one of the reasons why he hasn't won anything. The reality is that the only type of manager that will survive at United (imo) is one like Solksjaer or Giggs, whose club connections will entitle them to more excuses from the fans if things don't go well.
The hypocrisy in this post is astounding. You accuse other posters of possessing a sense of entitlement when it is, in fact, you who is the entitled one. Suggesting that it is not possible for United to sign Poch is a not only a falsehood but an incredibly arrogant statement. You don't know anything more about Poch's situation than the rest of us. I doubt the man himself has made up his mind yet.

The only other fan on this board who believes as you do is Glaston and he's the biggest WUM on the forum.
 

Dec9003

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It isn't getting emotive to suggest Tottenham can't compete with United past or present in the hunt for trophies, it's just the truth.
 

cjj

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The hypocrisy in this post is astounding. You accuse other posters of possessing a sense of entitlement when it is, in fact, you who is the entitled one. Suggesting that it is not possible for United to sign Poch is a not only a falsehood but an incredibly arrogant statement. You don't know anything more about Poch's situation than the rest of us. I doubt the man himself has made up his mind yet.

The only other fan on this board who believes as you do is Glaston and he's the biggest WUM on the forum.
It isn't getting emotive to suggest Tottenham can't compete with United past or present in the hunt for trophies, it's just the truth.
It isn't at all - what you're completely circumnavigating is the fact that there are no stand-out clubs in the Premier League any more - that gap has closed.

If (heaven forbid) Liverpool managed to win the league, there will have been (by the EOS) 4 different PL winners in the last 4 seasons. As a result, the respective top-6 managers know that there are fewer factors involved in winning titles when comparing the clubs. City can spend £200m every window, but it doesn't guarantee them the title as it's not down to resources. Klopp has managed to sort out his squad's weaknesses by means of recycling funds (one Allison and one Van Dijk in exchange for one Coutinho).

Based on pretty much everything he's said on the subject, Pochettino likes to build a squad and bring through club-developed players. People are ignorant to what he is saying and keep retorting that he isn't being given funds and deserves better, even when the man himself says otherwise. So, with that in mind, it's perfectly logical that he would see little benefit in sacrificing 4 years of work just to win a cup with someone else's squad or by simpling spending £300m on players. If he went anywhere else, you can pretty much guarantee he would do exactly the same as he has done at spurs - bin off the big money "stars", then bring through his own breed of players. That'd take another few years. LVG sort-of started this process with players like TFM, Lingaard and Rashford (plus a dozen others), and yet he got the sack (despite still winning a cup).

As much as you might want to disregard the opinions of a Spurs fan, I doubt there are many Man Utd fans who have read his Balague-published diary cover to cover, and read/watched every press conference and interview over the last 4 and a half years, and observed the things he does and says in his job. It's pretty arrogant to turn to someone who has and suggest that they haven't got a pretty good idea of what makes him tick. To suggest otherwise would be to imply that Pochettino is quite the method actor.


So, with all that in mind, what can Man Utd offer Pochettino over what he has now? That's what he would potentially be considering. More importantly, the balance will be "what can't they offer him":

Patience - he is not under pressure at Spurs and won't get the sack for anything but extreme circumstances. If Ole carrys on breaking records and winning games, and still doesn't get the job, he won't be the first Man Utd manager in recent years to have been let go despite success. After all, every one of the post-Fergie managers upto OGS has "won a trophy", but that mean nothing when it came to job security.
Chairman relationship - he values his relationship with his chairman, and had a strong relationship with Cortese at Southampton (regularly tying their destinies together), and speaks publicly (including in said diary-book) about how important his relationship is with DL. I'd be intrigued to hear any evidence of where he would find that at United.
Control/Structure - he openly spoken (with friction in his words) in his first season at Spurs about how he didn't like being "head coach" and not "manager". The result of keeping him happy was essentially Baldini and Mitchell leaving. Would Ed or the Glaziers give him that level of freedom?


You can't keep re-iterating that any and everyone will want to join Man Utd just because you're Man Utd - it doesn't work like that any more.
 

hellohello

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It isn't getting emotive to suggest Tottenham can't compete with United past or present in the hunt for trophies, it's just the truth.
Spurs are competing for the same trophies and on a similar level over the last few seasons, that's the truth.
 

Revan

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Spurs are competing for the same trophies and on a similar level over the last few seasons, that's the truth.
Our darkest spell in the last 3 decades coincided with Spurs best team in arguably more than half a century, and we still won 3 trophies while you won feck all.

This shows quite well the difference between the two clubs. Even when we are shit, we still win much more than you.
 

hellohello

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Our darkest spell in the last 3 decades coincided with Spurs best team in arguably more than half a century, and we still won 3 trophies while you won feck all.

This shows quite well the difference between the two clubs. Even when we are shit, we still win much more than you.
I'm not arguing against United, and we all know how successful you've been with the best manager of all time imo. I was just responding to yet another poster who want to put a club in their place by saying that we can't even compete. The truth is that we are and have been competing. Winning and competing is not the same, and having 3 consecutive top 3 finishes, and being in successive semi-finals in domestic cups is definitely competing.

If you're one of those who only measure success in trophies, regardless of what trophy they are then be my guest. Personally I think Liverpool had a better European campaign last season compared to when you won the EL although they won nothing, and similarly I think that our league finishes are worth something even though we didn't come first. I'm tired of this black and white view of success as well as people who only come here to belittle anything a smaller club achieve since it's not 'winning' and that's apparently the Manchester United way. Please go to one of the threads where United fans are excited about finishing top 4 and talk some sense into them of how it's not winning a trophy.
 

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I'm not arguing against United, and we all know how successful you've been with the best manager of all time imo. I was just responding to yet another poster who want to put a club in their place by saying that we can't even compete. The truth is that we are and have been competing. Winning and competing is not the same, and having 3 consecutive top 3 finishes, and being in successive semi-finals in domestic cups is definitely competing.

If you're one of those who only measure success in trophies, regardless of what trophy they are then be my guest. Personally I think Liverpool had a better European campaign last season compared to when you won the EL although they won nothing, and similarly I think that our league finishes are worth something even though we didn't come first. I'm tired of this black and white view of success as well as people who only come here to belittle anything a smaller club achieve since it's not 'winning' and that's apparently the Manchester United way. Please go to one of the threads where United fans are excited about finishing top 4 and talk some sense into them of how it's not winning a trophy.
Finishing third with 10+ points behind the champions is not competing. We finished second last season but we were never computing for the title.

Liverpool's season was better but they didn't win anything. At the end of the day you want to win, and we will remember the Europa League trophy while they won't have good memories for getting silver.

Fourth places vs FA Cup? A trophy is a better feeling but getting UCL is more important when it comes to getting players and for the finances of the club. But when it comes to feeling, nothing beats winning trophies.
 

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It isn't at all - what you're completely circumnavigating is the fact that there are no stand-out clubs in the Premier League any more - that gap has closed.
City and Liverpool are quite clearly the standout clubs in the PL - by a fairly large distance truth be told. United will always stand out from the pack due to the sheer size and stature of the club. Current league positions are not relevant when measuring the appeal of a club like United.

If (heaven forbid) Liverpool managed to win the league, there will have been (by the EOS) 4 different PL winners in the last 4 seasons. As a result, the respective top-6 managers know that there are fewer factors involved in winning titles when comparing the clubs. City can spend £200m every window, but it doesn't guarantee them the title as it's not down to resources. Klopp has managed to sort out his squad's weaknesses by means of recycling funds (one Allison and one Van Dijk in exchange for one Coutinho).
City has, on paper anyway, the best first eleven in the league. They acquired that status by investing north of £1 billion on transfer expenditure. Pep played his part by identifying the correct targets for his system and adapting them to his style of play, but let's not pretend that he achieved what he has with City due to unparalleled football club management, he did so because he was backed, and continues to be, without restraint in the transfer market. Klopp, hypocrite that he is, began his tenure with Liverpool by suggesting that he need not spend excessively on player acquisitions in order to achieve his goals, he later discovered how incredibly naive that statement was when his Liverpool team could achieve a league finish no higher than 4th. He then went on a spending spree, smashing transfer records in the process, bringing in the likes of Allison, VVD, Fabinho, Keita among others who in turn promptly elevated the club to the top of the table.

So, yes, investing resources (cash money to be precise) is absolutely essential to the success of a PL football club. Go ahead and check the last 30 winners of the PL title and tell me they did not spend heavily in the transfer market in order to achieve that feat. Leicester aside, of course, which was a straight up anomalous event.

Poch clearly concurs with the idea of transfer investment as he has stated as much quite openly. Something along the lines of "it is not possible to win trophies with Spurs without being backed". He has also complained in the press of a lack of backing from his chairman and 'friend', Daniel Levy. So their relationship is perhaps not as tight as you would indicate.
 
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Marcus

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I like that Alli, Kane and Son are unavailable for Spurs. If Pochettino manages to still keep Spurs winning, this trial by fire would give United a chance to see if he is really worth pursuing. If he doesn't, then it is good for United as we would know he is over reliant on key players and assess our managerial options accordingly. I personally hope that Ole does really well and makes it a tough decision for the board at the end of the season.
 

Adisa

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Will have achieved a minor miracle of his team come top four.
No signings, crack midfueld and injuries to key players.
 

crossy1686

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I like that Alli, Kane and Son are unavailable for Spurs. If Pochettino manages to still keep Spurs winning, this trial by fire would give United a chance to see if he is really worth pursuing. If he doesn't, then it is good for United as we would know he is over reliant on key players and assess our managerial options accordingly. I personally hope that Ole does really well and makes it a tough decision for the board at the end of the season.
This Tottenham team are Newcastle circa 1990's. They're over reliant on their first 11 and one or two very good players and have a manager that plays attacking football but they don't challenge for anything, they're just there in the background. At least Newcastle gave the league a good go and got to some cup finals.
 

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This Tottenham team are Newcastle circa 1990's. They're over reliant on their first 11 and one or two very good players and have a manager that plays attacking football but they don't challenge for anything, they're just there in the background. At least Newcastle gave the league a good go and got to some cup finals.
They had lot of injury problems.

Alli - 2 months
Wanyama - Almost all season
Dembele - 2-3 months
Sanchez - 1 month
vertonghen - 3 months
Lucas - 2-3 weeks
Trippier - 2-3 weeks
Dier - 1 month

Eriksen also missed 1 or 2 weeks and was on bench for few games. It's superb job by manager to be in that position considering they haven't signed anyone and had so many injury issues.
 

crossy1686

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They had lot of injury problems.

Alli - 2 months
Wanyama - Almost all season
Dembele - 2-3 months
Sanchez - 1 month
vertonghen - 3 months
Lucas - 2-3 weeks
Trippier - 2-3 weeks
Dier - 1 month

Eriksen also missed 1 or 2 weeks and was on bench for few games. It's superb job by manager to be in that position considering they haven't signed anyone and had so many injury issues.
I'm not saying he hasn't done well with what he has, I'm just saying Keegan did exactly the same thing at Newcastle and finished 2nd in the league two years on the trot.
 

roonster09

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I'm not saying he hasn't done well with what he has, I'm just saying Keegan did exactly the same thing at Newcastle and finished 2nd in the league two years on the trot.
It was in replay to "they rely lot on their first team". Their midfield is anything but first team and also so many of their first choice players have missed 2-3 months.

They rely on first team like any other team. There are few players who will be missed more than others, like Kane. So will have to see how they cope.
 

balaks

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I like that Alli, Kane and Son are unavailable for Spurs. If Pochettino manages to still keep Spurs winning, this trial by fire would give United a chance to see if he is really worth pursuing. If he doesn't, then it is good for United as we would know he is over reliant on key players and assess our managerial options accordingly. I personally hope that Ole does really well and makes it a tough decision for the board at the end of the season.
Absolutely hilarious. Thanks for giving me a laugh on what otherwise will be a stressful day.
 

charlenefan

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True. Imagine us without Pogba, Rashford & Martial.
Spurs still have Eriksen so he's their Pogba. It would be like us without our current front 3 but then we'd still have Sanchez, Lukaku and Mata, much more strength in depth (wasn't so long ago that that was our starting 3 as well)
 

Vadim

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I am convinced he will leave.
Yeah I think he will. He's fed up at Spurs. No cash to spend on players, it's like Groundhog Day every season for him.

Go on a nice little run in the cups and Europe, finish in the top 4, win nothing, rinse repeat.

If he's ambitious and hungry, and I think he is - he'll be off to Real in the summer I think and Spurs will drop like a stone.
 

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I'm not saying he hasn't done well with what he has, I'm just saying Keegan did exactly the same thing at Newcastle and finished 2nd in the league two years on the trot.
Newcastle were one of the biggest spenders in that time.
 

Mastadon

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Spurs have a huge disadvantage financially against the big teams. Expecting to win titles with such a 300m-500m handicap against the likes of Chelsea, Pool, City and United is insane. Imagine if Poch had 300m to spend how much closer to the title would he be.

Just look at the value of the respective squads.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/f...ers-cost-money-fees-total-spend-cash-finances

The advantage other clubs have over Spurs is insane. The fact that Spurs are even competing is a miracle in itself.
 

Amadaeus

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Spurs have a huge disadvantage financially against the big teams. Expecting to win titles with such a 300m-500m handicap against the likes of Chelsea, Pool, City and United is insane. Imagine if Poch had 300m to spend how much closer to the title would he be.

Just look at the value of the respective squads.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/f...ers-cost-money-fees-total-spend-cash-finances

The advantage other clubs have over Spurs is insane. The fact that Spurs are even competing is a miracle in itself.
Yea, it would be interesting to see how well he does with a larger transfer budget. One of many reasons why United need to go all out for Pochettino.
 

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Yea, it would be interesting to see how well he does with a larger transfer budget. One of many reasons why United need to go all out for Pochettino.
That's hardly a reason to go for him, is it? We have tried managers before who were used to operate on a limited budget.
 

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It is always funny to read excuses for the failures of Caf's favourite son.
 

RedPed

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If this was OGS losing this match, all the doubters would be out in force with their 'told you so's' whilst Poch is still seen as the chosen one?