The only thing I would say is that Madrid were really weak at that time. Unfortunately, we never played them then.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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The reaction to last night's match shows how this debate is becoming more about comparing team success than individual performance. Ronaldo was completely anonymous in all three matches after the quarterfinals last season, yet his PR team on here was still saying he carried Madrid to the title almost singlehandedly. On the other hand, Messi scores twice and creates five great opportunities against Liverpool but it's apparently a terrible display from him because the other ten Barca players besides Vidal were all dreadful.
On an individual level, Messi was comfortably better in the knockout stages this year than Ronaldo was in 2014, 2016, and 2018.
It seems like Ronaldo's fanboys are trying to turn the narrative into blaming Messi for all of Barca or Argentina's failures because even they probably know deep down that it isn't a contest in who is the better player individually.
On an individual level, Messi was comfortably better in the knockout stages this year than Ronaldo was in 2014, 2016, and 2018.
It seems like Ronaldo's fanboys are trying to turn the narrative into blaming Messi for all of Barca or Argentina's failures because even they probably know deep down that it isn't a contest in who is the better player individually.
I'm sorry but that's just stupid.
So from 2016 to 2018? 2 years?
It's not even true for 2017-18 but whatever... glad you agree with me then.
If only... I'm not going to watch the CL final.
Actually disagree with that. Do you still remember recent performances of Ronaldo vs Athletico (Juventus poor midfield) and Ronaldo vs Spain (Portugal poor midfield), he is quite extraordinary.
You may argue without exquisite midfield, he may not win everything on his own. But looks “ordinary” is quite a massive underrated.
He scored 85 international goals for Portugal, no one with sane mind will rate a player “ordinary” scoring that amount of goals for a poor side in Europe.
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If this forum ever needed an enema, this thread is where you'd put it.
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Quarter-finals, not semi-finals. Messi also had scored two goals in the first leg like CR7. CR7 only saved Real due to a stoppage time penalty.
There are at least two goals better than CR7's bycicle kick against Juventus in the UCL history: the second Messi goal against Real in 2011 and Zidane's goal in the 2002 final.
Messi created some great chances and forced Alisson to make great defenses. If anything, he was the only Barcelona player outside of Ter Stegen who did not bottle it tonight, even tough he was not great by his standards. Had only one of Messi's shots went in, you would not say that he bottled it. Messi did not hide from the game.
No, my point is only that all great players also make bad matches. In this year, Messi almost dragged Barcelona to the final all by himself, for example.
Also, Messi is far more Barcelona's comfort zone than the reverse. And why does Messi need to prove himself on other club to be great? Many of the all-time greats virtually only played a single club. We talk so much of how players do not love their clubs and play only for money, we admire players who stay in the same club throughout their careers, like Totti, Giggs, Scholes, Xavi, Iniesta, Gerrard, Lampard, Baresi, Nesta and Maldini, but then people here criticize Messi for staying at Barcelona? This is hypocrisy and incoherence.
Messi had a great performance against City in 2015 in Etihad. He was the best Barcelona player in that game. Search Messi vs. Manchester City in YouTube.
CR7 may not have been bailed out by Modric, but he was bailed out by the collective play of his team sometimes. Benzema and Bale bailed CR7 out in the semifinals and final of 2018. Di María and Sergio Ramos bailed him out in the 2014 UCL final. Sergio Ramos also did the same in 2016. All fantastic players were bailed out sometimes in their careers.
I do not deny that Messi had some pitiful performances in which he truly disappeared and was terrible. I already gave examples here of his game against Croatia, his games against Atletico in 2016 quarter-finals and the second leg against Roma in 2018. I am not blind to Messi's failures. My point is that CR7 also went through similar situations. Do you remember when Real was knocked out in 2010 by Lyon? Barcelona in 2011? From 2010-2013, 4 years playing for Real in which he did not win the Champions (an equivalent situation to Messi's streak of 4 consecutive years without winning the UCL) and Real often lost to Barcelona (with CR7 missing many goals in some games and unable to make the difference many times), he was, sometimes unfairly, deemed as a bottler and as overrated almost all the time and many people were saying that Xavi and Iniesta were better players than him too. People said that CR7 only cared about his hair and looking himself at the screen. 2009-2011, specially 2010, were terrible years for his image. Messi, instead, was seen as the player who was both clearly better technically (something that he still is) AND decisive. The tide changed since then because CR7 started winning and being decisive while Messi was not. Even until 2015, Messi was still clearly above CR7, the three consecutive UCLs in the last years, coupled with Messi failing, are what truly changed the public perception about them. The public and many users here seem to have only short-term memory. I remember all of his careers, both good and bad moments, and I take into consideration the whole of their careers. Messi once edged above Ronaldo with a gigantic distance both in titles, Baloon D'ors and public consciouness. A single game can not change my analysis and I hate the immediatism and short-sight of so many both Messi and CR7 irrational, blind fanatics in this thread. This thread is often disgusting and disgraceful.
I do not deny that Messi seems to feel the pressure and crumble under it more than CR7. 2018 World Cup was specially a sad example. Still, there are fine margins for everything in football, fine margins that decide titles.
This does not mean that Messi shot badly. Alisson made some fantastic saves from Messi's shots. Scoring the goal always needs luck. Sometimes, you score with one shot, other times you do not. Cristiano Ronaldo also had matches in which he shot many times, but failed to score, like the 3-1 Barcelona victory over Real in 2011 in Bernabéu. These things happen, sometimes because the adversary goalkeeper pulled off great saves or the shots were not well aimed. You again seem to think that a player is only worthy in a match when the player scores. This is factually wrong.Now apparently shooting without scoring is good? I thought shots to goals ratio is key?
Messi was very good in the Etihad game, the best Barcelona player in that day. Please, search Messi vs. City 2015 Away. The first goal was Messi dribbling many players and passing tô Alba who crossed to Suárez. He was constantly being a very good playmaker, dribbling and creating Barcelona's chances.
The point here is that both Messi and CR7 have been bailed out many times at least almost equally. And other times they were not and fell in the UCL. This is normal, all of the all-time greats also were bailed out and "bottled" many big games in their careers, games in which they either were saved by teammates or lost. Romário made a fantastic World Cup 94, almost single-handedly carrying Brazil to the final, he was a genius and of the greatest strikers and players in football history. Yet, he disappeared in the final, he missed an easy goal and was nulified by Baresi. He won the World Cup in the penalties, including scoring his own penalty, but he would not be a bottler if he lost the final in the same way that Roberto Baggio was not a bottler for missing that penalty, he was the man that almost single-handedly dragged Italia to the final, he was fantastic, a genius too. Some bad big games do not make a player
Remember what was happening with Real against Juventus in Turim last year?
Messi was not at his best yesterday, but you will see if you watch the whole match and take in consideration the whole context, Barcelona's players were totally scared! They could not make simple passes, they could barely even reach the central circle! What do you want Messi or any player to be able to do in that situation? Receive the ball in the midfield and score a goal like Maradona in 86 against England, dribbling the whole adversary team? Because that was the only way that Barcelona could attack Liverpool during a good part of the game, such was the state of total panic and despair of Barcelona's players. Messi still created some good chances and tried to solve the game, he was the only Barcelona player who did not give up to despair and tried to make things happen, but his teammates were too scared. Even if Messi "bottled it" yesterday, something that I have doubts because of all the arguments that I exposed here, he would still be the Barcelona player who "bottled it" the less. Why focus all the harsh criticism on Messi, why is no one talking how trash Suárez was yesterday? Why is Messi always the person who gets blamed the most when his team loses even when he was from being the worst Barcelona player? Why it is only Messi who is hold accountable for his team's losses? Why Messi must carry all the blame here? This is a problem that I have also seen many times with CR7 too, specially in fanboys wars like at least half of this thread is! This is unfair to Messi, unfair to CR7, unfair to any great player! This comproves how short-sighted, toxic, immediatist and low is the overall level of discussion and arguments in the history thread and in this site overall!
Exactly! This is valid both for the wins and the losses and it is why I hate how Messi and CR7 fanboys are immediatist to take advantage of any big game that they lose, which is ridiculous. Single good or bad games do not define the level and greatness of a player!
This! He did not play well in that Euro, far from it, his importance was far more his leadership. The technical level of that Euro was overall atrocious! Portugal dragged wins in the KO drawing all games in normal time! CR7 played badly AND did not score in the KO, if I am not mistaken. Terrible, ugly matches. Portugal 2016 is the worst Euro winner ever! CR7's 2016 Euro does not compare with Zidane's 2000 Euro.
What does Messi's performance have to do with Liverpool's misses? Messi was crucial in making Barcelona have such a good lead.
I am not sure that both CR7 and Messi are really in the top 5 of all time. Top 20? Sure! Top 10? Probably. But Top 5? There are players such as Pelé, Maradona, Garrincha, Di Stéfano, Cruyff, Puskás, Beckenbauer and so on.
I am talking only about yesterday, not their overall careers. In their careers, Messi has been bailed out sometimes and CR7 sometimes too. That is normal, they are humans. Like my Romário and Roberto Baggio examples, very fine margins happen in many wins and losses, specially in big games.
No truly rational and toughtful person would change a vote because of a single game.
And the GOAT is obvious: Pelé.
Lyon, United, first leg against Liverpool
Liverpool should have won in 2018 and Atletico in 2016. That team did not deserve two, much less three in a row. Disgrace.
How come Messi's teammates can't bail him out when Messi makes everyone around him more productive and better?
And ya, now suddenly shots taken is an important metric while for years Ronaldo was beaten by this same stick. The M brigade
And ya, now suddenly shots taken is an important metric while for years Ronaldo was beaten by this same stick. The M brigade
His greatness comes from the fact he makes everyone around him better while simultaneously every single player turns to shit as soon as they're playing next to him so as to always form a one man team full of proven world class players he has to carry. You might thing this is completely nonsensical but it's actually too genius for you to understand.
The lengths they will goHow come Messi's teammates can't bail him out when Messi makes everyone around him more productive and better?
And ya, now suddenly shots taken is an important metric while for years Ronaldo was beaten by this same stick. The M brigade
Considering how Barca fans are calling everyone in the squad shit except for Messi, they need to sign Origi and Wijnaldum from their feeder club this summer.
And call them shite too some time later.
And call them shite too some time later.
Imagine listing one of the most memorable performances in recent years as a game where Messi needed to be “bailed out”
Oh my god
Anyone who quotes Ben Shapiro in a debate automatically loses that debate.
Kinda like how Madrid fans called benzema shit for years even though he’s a top 5 all time UCL scorer?
Honestly. What an embarrassing post
last year's madrid side was a long way from their greatest, however
The 2016-2017 side is arguably the deepest team ever assembled in world football.
Their 2nd stringers essentially won La Liga at the tail-end of the season.
Messi's job is to create chances and score goals. He's better than anyone else at the former and arguably the best at the latter.
If he scores two goals and creates numerous gilt-edge chances over the two legs then surely it is an example of him doing his job and team mates failing him? Perhaps he doesn't make his team mates better but he creates more chances for them than anyone else in the world would. Dembele, Suarez, Alba and Coutinho should have been able to finish one of the chances he laid on for them and as much as you can laugh about world class players letting him down, these two legs are surely evidence of that happening no matter how much of a myth you claim it to be in the past.
Do you disagree with any of what I wrote?
He'll find a way to put his spin on it and blame Messi.
Messi created more gilt-edged chances in the 2 legs than perhaps anyone else did in the past 10 years.
It's not his fault his teammates kept missing them.
All this stuff about Messi and Ronaldo being bailed out by their teammates is bullshit.
It's 11 man teamsport. Neither Messi or Ronaldo is supposed to score every single decisive goal or every important assist. Obviously if your a striker, you have the responsibiltity of scoring goals, but your not gonna score ALL the goals ALL the time. Team winning trophies and matches is a collective TEAM effort. Even though Messi and Ronaldo are the best players in their team, they are not 1 man teams.
Also the fact that this season is apparently a failure for not winning the CL for both Messi and Ronaldo despite winning their domestic league and being their team's topscorer says alot of about what incredible expectations are on them every season.
It's 11 man teamsport. Neither Messi or Ronaldo is supposed to score every single decisive goal or every important assist. Obviously if your a striker, you have the responsibiltity of scoring goals, but your not gonna score ALL the goals ALL the time. Team winning trophies and matches is a collective TEAM effort. Even though Messi and Ronaldo are the best players in their team, they are not 1 man teams.
Also the fact that this season is apparently a failure for not winning the CL for both Messi and Ronaldo despite winning their domestic league and being their team's topscorer says alot of about what incredible expectations are on them every season.
The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Except the part where he says Messi is the best player in the world.
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And don´t mention Argentina, we are not playing any World Cup since 2010 without him.
I quoted a "genius" in fairness watching him destroy people is hilarious but anyways we digress.
Oh dear.
I just find it funny how him creating chances and his teammates missing is his teammates letting him down regardless of the fact he was the one that missed the biggest chance of the game. How can it be others' fault for missing chances when he had more and better chances to score than any other player? That's what I don't understand.
This is just following that logic btw, it's not what I believe in. Like I've said here, I don't blame Messi for what happened in this Liverpool tie. I found it disappointing that he got completely out of the game after the 2-0 and don't think he acted like a captain should act. That second half was Messi at his worst and it would have been forgivable if it was a one off but it's happened too often in these moments. Overall he played very well in the lwo legs, the last 45 minutes can NEVER happen though and it does put a big stain on it.
I still believe that his quality is undeniable but the way he affects Barcelona's game in the past few years has plenty of downsides for the team too which has nothing to do with one particular performance but with the entire identity and style of play of this team that isn't getting the best out of the squad. Main culprit is Valverde, but it's something that happened with Luis Enrique too and in Argentina. They funnel their attacks through him making it tougher for other forwards who need the ball at their feet, their pressing game has gone to shit, they become too dependent on him creating when they have more than enough quality for that not to be the case and their 4-3-3 standard Barcelona shape hasn't worked with this central version of Messi + Suarez. I believe there's a reason classic number 10s are dying out in modern football and I believe that Messi is simply the only one who has enough quality to make up for these tactical downsides, but the downsides are still there.
With a bigger set of balls they'd have won two trebles in a row even with all those problems though so it's not like it destroys their chances, I just don't believe it's the best way to maximize their chances of winning the Champions League. And I believe that the older he gets, the worse these tactical problems are going to get regardless of who the manager is.
I see you lean towards the left side of things. Oh boy indeed.
Obviously Messi has his share of the blame for his performance in the 2nd leg, but it was mostly down to him that they were leading 3-0 on aggerate.
A 'genius'?...No.
A formidable debater?...Yes. That he routinely 'destroys' people who lack said skills isn't surprising.
Anyway, tangent over.
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I didn't mean when he talks to college kids because like you said it is not a fair debate. But he has many of times made people or debaters from the left looking stupid and with nothing to say.
Also I put genius in quotation marls because I was saying it mostly as an exaggerated joke just so you understand.
His grasp of statistics and facts together with his rapid fire delivery are a potent combination. People on the left tend to have a much poorer grasp of the former imo, which always provides a sizeable advantage to anyone who wishes to challenge their assumptions.
I know. That part of my response was more for Fridge chutney.
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Yup and I'll be the first to say Messi was AWFUL in that second leg against Roma. Maybe the worst game I have seen from him this decade.
But in the second leg against Liverpool he wasn't great but literally every single chances Barca had was all because of him.
What a joke of a post
Yes, every post which doesn't eulogize Messi is "a joke of a post".What a joke of a post
As I said after the first-leg:
It's idiocy to look at one game, and then draw broad conclusions from it. Arguably, it is justifiable in a one-on-one sport, but in a team sport it's completely stupid.
Would Messi have been a better player if Alba hadn't played so poorly, and if Ter Stegen hadn't made a terrible mistake, and if Barcelona had defended better, and they hadn't given away one completely stupid goal, and they'd lost 2-0? No, of course not. It is utterly stupid to suggest otherwise.
Is Messi now a worse player than he was one week ago, when he was absolutely brilliant in the first-leg, against a Liverpool team who proved they are the better side than Barcelona over the two legs? No, of course not.
Is Ronaldo now a better player having done absolutely nothing, just because Barcelona threw a big lead away in the Champions League semi-finals? No, of course not.
Would Ronaldo have become a worse player if Barcelona had won the Champions League? No, of course not.
It is nothing short of utterly senseless to argue on this basis, and to cite team results in an assessment of which individual player is the better footballer.
There are too many variables that the individual can never even influence in football, let alone control, and to then cite the outcome of these variables as being significant in an assessment of that player makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
That's why the poll hasn't changed, that's why the view of Messi as one of the greatest players of all-time, and probably the greatest, hasn't changed. And it won't change, no matter how many times Barcelona play poorly in the Champions League.
This remains the case after the second-leg.
It's idiocy to look at one game, and then draw broad conclusions from it. Arguably, it is justifiable in a one-on-one sport, but in a team sport it's completely stupid.
Would Messi have been a better player if Alba hadn't played so poorly, and if Ter Stegen hadn't made a terrible mistake, and if Barcelona had defended better, and they hadn't given away one completely stupid goal, and they'd lost 2-0? No, of course not. It is utterly stupid to suggest otherwise.
Is Messi now a worse player than he was one week ago, when he was absolutely brilliant in the first-leg, against a Liverpool team who proved they are the better side than Barcelona over the two legs? No, of course not.
Is Ronaldo now a better player having done absolutely nothing, just because Barcelona threw a big lead away in the Champions League semi-finals? No, of course not.
Would Ronaldo have become a worse player if Barcelona had won the Champions League? No, of course not.
It is nothing short of utterly senseless to argue on this basis, and to cite team results in an assessment of which individual player is the better footballer.
There are too many variables that the individual can never even influence in football, let alone control, and to then cite the outcome of these variables as being significant in an assessment of that player makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
That's why the poll hasn't changed, that's why the view of Messi as one of the greatest players of all-time, and probably the greatest, hasn't changed. And it won't change, no matter how many times Barcelona play poorly in the Champions League.
Just because Messi scores against PL teams doesn't mean he wouldn't struggle in the PL.
We bring this up not because the PL is harder but because Messi will be playing in a team outside his comfort zone.
Pep's City would be the only club he could play atleast to 85% of the level he does for Barcelona without ever having the likes of Iniesta, Xavi, Neymar, Suarez, Busquets, Puyok and Pique. Sure he would have Fernandinho, Sterling, Silva, De bryune - but no way would it be the same level of consistency he does at his home town club that ever since Pep - was built to get the best of Messi.
Ronaldo at United wasn't abnormally made to be the main attacking threat at United - he was given equal importance to Rooney & Tevez with usually Ronaldo outdoing them. At Madrid he got more targeted by their team as the main attacking threat but as a LW + he would find himself usually in the same position all the time whilst Benzema & Bale would play on the other side.
All Messi is - is more eye catching to watch. Ronaldo has better statistics and a CV across the world.
Whilst Messi plays - people will always talk about him being the GOAT for his wondegoals against betis and getafe he pulls three times a season - but when both retire - people will open their eyes about Ronaldo - seeing the things he has won, for the different teams, for the country whilst scoring the most goals and even assists.
We bring this up not because the PL is harder but because Messi will be playing in a team outside his comfort zone.
Pep's City would be the only club he could play atleast to 85% of the level he does for Barcelona without ever having the likes of Iniesta, Xavi, Neymar, Suarez, Busquets, Puyok and Pique. Sure he would have Fernandinho, Sterling, Silva, De bryune - but no way would it be the same level of consistency he does at his home town club that ever since Pep - was built to get the best of Messi.
Ronaldo at United wasn't abnormally made to be the main attacking threat at United - he was given equal importance to Rooney & Tevez with usually Ronaldo outdoing them. At Madrid he got more targeted by their team as the main attacking threat but as a LW + he would find himself usually in the same position all the time whilst Benzema & Bale would play on the other side.
All Messi is - is more eye catching to watch. Ronaldo has better statistics and a CV across the world.
Whilst Messi plays - people will always talk about him being the GOAT for his wondegoals against betis and getafe he pulls three times a season - but when both retire - people will open their eyes about Ronaldo - seeing the things he has won, for the different teams, for the country whilst scoring the most goals and even assists.
Just because Messi scores against PL teams doesn't mean he wouldn't struggle in the PL.
We bring this up not because the PL is harder but because Messi will be playing in a team outside his comfort zone.
Pep's City would be the only club he could play atleast to 85% of the level he does for Barcelona without ever having the likes of Iniesta, Xavi, Neymar, Suarez, Busquets, Puyok and Pique. Sure he would have Fernandinho, Sterling, Silva, De bryune - but no way would it be the same level of consistency he does at his home town club that ever since Pep - was built to get the best of Messi.
Ronaldo at United wasn't abnormally made to be the main attacking threat at United - he was given equal importance to Rooney & Tevez with usually Ronaldo outdoing them. At Madrid he got more targeted by their team as the main attacking threat but as a LW + he would find himself usually in the same position all the time whilst Benzema & Bale would play on the other side.
All Messi is - is more eye catching to watch. Ronaldo has better statistics and a CV across the world.
Whilst Messi plays - people will always talk about him being the GOAT for his wondegoals against betis and getafe he pulls three times a season - but when both retire - people will open their eyes about Ronaldo - seeing the things he has won, for the different teams, for the country whilst scoring the most goals and even assists.
We bring this up not because the PL is harder but because Messi will be playing in a team outside his comfort zone.
Pep's City would be the only club he could play atleast to 85% of the level he does for Barcelona without ever having the likes of Iniesta, Xavi, Neymar, Suarez, Busquets, Puyok and Pique. Sure he would have Fernandinho, Sterling, Silva, De bryune - but no way would it be the same level of consistency he does at his home town club that ever since Pep - was built to get the best of Messi.
Ronaldo at United wasn't abnormally made to be the main attacking threat at United - he was given equal importance to Rooney & Tevez with usually Ronaldo outdoing them. At Madrid he got more targeted by their team as the main attacking threat but as a LW + he would find himself usually in the same position all the time whilst Benzema & Bale would play on the other side.
All Messi is - is more eye catching to watch. Ronaldo has better statistics and a CV across the world.
Whilst Messi plays - people will always talk about him being the GOAT for his wondegoals against betis and getafe he pulls three times a season - but when both retire - people will open their eyes about Ronaldo - seeing the things he has won, for the different teams, for the country whilst scoring the most goals and even assists.
One with incredibly dumb argument? Oh you better believe it.Yes, every post which doesn't eulogize Messi is "a joke of a post".
It’s not like Messi let his teammates down, literally every chance they had in the second was all thanks to him. His teammates were awful so it’s not like they were playing their hearts out and he was the weak link.
Could Messi have played better in the second leg? For sure, but when he was STILL their best player he’s the last guy who deserves criticism.
So much wrong with this post. Messi with Liverpool, City, or even Tottenham and he would still dominate. You think he wouldn’t be able to put perform Aguero, or salah or mane? I mean seriously!?
As for Ronaldo having better stats that isn’t remotely true. He has better CL stats but Messi will overtake him for total goals if he hasn’t already and trumps him in assists.
Cristiano Ronaldo has played 118 games more than Leo Messi in all his club career and has scored only 1 goals more than the argentinian. Also, Leo Messi has given 45 assists more than Cristiano Ronaldo in all his club career, making a total of 834 goals generated in 684 games (1.22 goals generated by game).
Not sure what you’re on about.
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