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Ultimate Grib

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And all those things Thatcher removed were mostly reinstated in the 90s after a series of high profile screw ups. Brown reversed almost all of them.
What are you even talking about what was reinstated and what was reversed? Investment banks were still operating with customers money rather than their own. The housing bubble , one of the biggest contributors to the crash, was also started by Thatchers right to buy. You just keep waffling soundbites with no substance or any shed of proof. Are you Boris Johnson? :lol:

I told you to educate yourself with the "Big Bang" as you seem to have no clue especially since you're in the finance industry :lol:
 

11101

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What are you even talking about what was reinstated and what was reversed? Investment banks were still operating with customers money rather than their own. The housing bubble , one of the biggest contributors to the crash, was also started by Thatchers right to buy. You just keep waffling soundbites with no substance or any shed of proof. Are you Boris Johnson? :lol:

I told you to educate yourself with the "Big Bang" as you seem to have no clue especially since you're in the finance industry :lol:
After things like Barings Bank and the ERM mess a lot of regulations were put in place, and a lot of those were then removed by Brown.

I'm talking about deregulation of the financial markets anyway. You asked for examples, now you've been given them you're waffling on about Thatcher and totally unrelated right to buy schemes. Maybe best to leave it here.
 

Ekkie Thump

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Well wherever you've found that chart, it's wrong.
It's a simplified version of the one on the ONS's own website (Chapter 4, figure 4). The absolute figures in Grib's chart are wrong, but then it seems so are yours. The 9.1bn figure is from 1997-98. The 1996-97 figure is listed as £27.7bn. In terms of %gdp net borrowing was still lower than that inherited from the the Major government as late as 2007-08. Here's the chart:


You can download the xls spreadsheet yourself if you want (This is a directly downloadable link).
 

Ultimate Grib

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It's a simplified version of the one on the ONS's own website (Chapter 4, figure 4). The absolute figures in Grib's chart are wrong, but then it seems so are yours. The 9.1bn figure is from 1997-98. The 1996-97 figure is listed as £27.7bn. In terms of %gdp net borrowing was still lower than that inherited from the the Major government as late as 2007-08. Here's the chart:


You can download the xls spreadsheet yourself if you want (This is a directly downloadable link).

I just went back to the source there was a footnote there saying the chart above was adjusted for inflation at 2011/12 prices so actual borrowing/surplus in terms of money was lower but percentages of GDP were correct. Thanks

After things like Barings Bank and the ERM mess a lot of regulations were put in place, and a lot of those were then removed by Brown.

I'm talking about deregulation of the financial markets anyway. You asked for examples, now you've been given them you're waffling on about Thatcher and totally unrelated right to buy schemes. Maybe best to leave it here.
Yes lets leave it there because clearly you don't know your arse from your elbow considering you haven't brought a single regulatory safeguard that was removed by Brown.
 

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Just a quick reminder for anyone who still thinks the Tories actually give a damn about them..

Voters are right to think Tory MPs largely do not care about poorer people or the NHS, according to Dominic Cummings in comments that have emerged from two years ago.

Boris Johnson’s new senior adviser and a key architect of Brexit gave his damning view on Conservative MPs at a conference in 2017, where he said: “People think, and by the way I think most people are right: ‘The Tory party is run by people who basically don’t care about people like me.’

“That is what most people in the country have thought about the Tory party for decades. I know a lot of Tory MPs and I am sad to say the public is basically correct. Tory MPs largely do not care about these poorer people. They don’t care about the NHS. And the public has kind of cottoned on to that.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ries-do-not-care-about-poor-people-or-the-nhs
 

Kentonio

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So Boris majority could be cut to 1 tonight, if they lose Brecon and Radnorshire to the Lib Dems. I'm actually speechless that the stupid cnuts thought it was a good idea to put forward the same guy who just got removed for rigging his expenses.
 

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Lib Dems certainly not going away then.
 

Cheesy

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Good thing the Greens and Plaid Cymru decided not to field candidates so there was only one remain candidate.
Much as it pains Labour to admit if they're polling like that it's hard to justify them standing in some seats considering any election is basically going to be a Remain/Brexit referendum at this point. Especially if they don't want the Lib Dems to prevent them from winning lots of key seats that'll otherwise go to the Tories. Obviously by-elections are unpredictable and it's not one you'd expect Labour to win but those results are utterly pitiful for a party that wants to even campaign for an election on the basis of forming a government.
 

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I really don’t know when the penny will drop for Labour that at this point people no longer give a shit about any other issues other than Brexit and that nothing else can be achieved until that’s out of the way.

I’ve done a full 360 on Corbyn and think he absolutely needs to go if there’s any chance of stopping a Conservative government. Considering the state of the country the opposition should have been miles ahead but it has been failed by its leadership of both Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn. If only David had won we wouldn’t need to be talking about Conservatives, Corbyn or indeed fecking Brexit :mad:
 

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Lib Dems winning a marginally pro Brexit seat. Farage has Boris over a barrel.
 
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Kentonio

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And I can't se a credible policy that the likes of mogg or bone would back that the dup or ken Clarke / hammond would go with

Election called in early September I think to force through a hard brexit on 31st october
It's just a shame that those feckers on the Labour Leave side seem quite happy to line up behind the government like loyal little Tories so far. Makes the maths more complicated. Although I still think there's enough discontent actual Tories to make up the numbers.
 

Smores

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Much as it pains Labour to admit if they're polling like that it's hard to justify them standing in some seats considering any election is basically going to be a Remain/Brexit referendum at this point. Especially if they don't want the Lib Dems to prevent them from winning lots of key seats that'll otherwise go to the Tories. Obviously by-elections are unpredictable and it's not one you'd expect Labour to win but those results are utterly pitiful for a party that wants to even campaign for an election on the basis of forming a government.
As you said they're not expected to win it and will have barely campaigned especially given it's not a GE campaign. It's not been won since the 70s.

This was a Lib Dem seat to win and they should have done it by a much bigger margin considering the tory candidate.
 

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Lib Dems winning a marginally pro Brexit seat. Farage has Boris over a barrel.
All that tells me is that Tories will form a majority government with TBP and DUP next election with a no deal mandate. Labour’s lukewarm, soft Brexit stance means they’ll neither finish first (and therefore will not be given a chance to form a coalition) nor will they have enough allies to form a government.

Lib Dems, Plaid, Greens and probably SNP will be in a coalition of Remain while Labour will stand alone. No doubt Labour will blame it on the Remain coalition for taking voters away from them, on voters for voting on a GE like it’s a single issue referendum and everything else under the sun apart from their own disastrous stance and leadership.
 

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As you said they're not expected to win it and will have barely campaigned especially given it's not a GE campaign. It's not been won since the 70s.

This was a Lib Dem seat to win and they should have done it by a much bigger margin considering the tory candidate.
Should have done by a much bigger margin? What? A pro-Brexit constituency, a 20 point Tory lead in 2017. Overturned. But somehow a failure?

What’s the basis for that argument?
 

Ultimate Grib

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Should have done by a much bigger margin? What? A pro-Brexit constituency, a 20 point Tory lead in 2017. Overturned. But somehow a failure?

What’s the basis for that argument?
It's not a failure. It should have been a bigger margin because the main opponent was the same guy who was unseated by a petition of 19% of the constituents for submitting false expenses. It kinda shows the weakness of the other parties with the Conservatives fielding any old shit and still making it a close contest. It's ridiculously frustrating to see.
 

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I really don’t know when the penny will drop for Labour that at this point people no longer give a shit about any other issues other than Brexit and that nothing else can be achieved until that’s out of the way.

I’ve done a full 360 on Corbyn and think he absolutely needs to go if there’s any chance of stopping a Conservative government. Considering the state of the country the opposition should have been miles ahead but it has been failed by its leadership of both Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn. If only David had won we wouldn’t need to be talking about Conservatives, Corbyn or indeed fecking Brexit :mad:
:lol:

You probably would, to be fair, just to avoid discussing Britain's role in extraordinary rendition.

So looking at the results it's 49.5% for no deal and 43.5% for another vote where no deal is on the ballot.

Edit: Make that over 50% for no deal, I forgot about the existence of UKIP.
 
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Ultimate Grib

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You probably think I made a mistake but I was hugely critical after the referendum and wanted him gone, then warmed to him during the election and fully supported after, and now after 2 years of shambles I'm back to where I started.
 

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It should have been a bigger margin but doesn't take away from the fact that Labour are in no position to be contesting GE until they sort their Brexit policy. I even think it's too late.
 

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You probably think I made a mistake but I was hugely critical after the referendum and wanted him gone, then warmed to him during the election and fully supported after, and now after 2 years of shambles I'm back to where I started.
That's a shame. I really wish Labour was more appealing to people who 'no longer give a shit about any other issues other than Brexit'.
 

Ultimate Grib

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That's a shame. I really wish Labour was more appealing to people who 'no longer give a shit about any other issues other than Brexit'.
It's not difficuilt to see that his country is gridlocked. It's no longer 2017 when the Brexit process had barely started and Labour can ignore it and press the social issues. As hugely important as they are people are completely fatigued with Brexit now and want it over and done with. There's absolutely nothing that can be achieved until that is out of the way. You can't invest in services, people and the economy until you free up funds that are constantly being set aside for Brexit. They will never win a general election if they don't adress the main sticking point of Brexit. They can bang on about social inequality and everything else that is wrong with this country as much as they want, people have Brexit on the brain and they've no chance of changing that unless they fully address it!
 

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It's not difficuilt to see that his country is gridlocked. It's no longer 2017 when the Brexit process had barely started and Labour can ignore it and press the social issues. As hugely important as they are people are completely fatigued with Brexit now and want it over and done with. There's absolutely nothing that can be achieved until that is out of the way. You can't invest in services, people and the economy until you free up funds that are constantly being set aside for Brexit. They will never win a general election if they don't adress the main sticking point of Brexit. They can bang on about social inequality and everything else that is wrong with this country as much as they want, people have Brexit on the brain and they've no chance of changing that unless they fully address it!
:lol:

That's some turn around. Maybe not 360, but you're half way there at least.
 

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All that tells me is that Tories will form a majority government with TBP and DUP next election with a no deal mandate.
Despite their polling percentage, the Brexit Party are forecast to win exactly 0 seats. Looking at polling percentages is basically meaningless in terms of who will hold power after the next election.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
 

Ultimate Grib

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:lol:

That's some turn around. Maybe not 360, but you're half way there at least.
What are you even on about? No one is saying the issues this country is facing are not important, just that Brexit is far more important than all of them and closesly tied to anything that comes afterwards depending on which way it will go. You must be Corbyn in disguise if you don't recognise that Brexit is the stumbling block that must be removed in order to move on.
 

Dobba

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What are you even on about? No one is saying the issues this country is facing are not important, just that Brexit is far more important than all of them and closesly tied to anything that comes afterwards depending on which way it will go. You must be Corbyn in disguise if you don't recognise that Brexit is the stumbling block that must be removed in order to move on.
No one is saying the issues this country is facing are not important, people just no longer give a shit about any of them other than Brexit. Got it.
 

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No one is saying the issues this country is facing are not important, people just no longer give a shit about any of them other than Brexit. Got it.
Do people care about being able to pay their bills each month? Sure. Do people care about their kids getting a good education? Sure. Do people think about these things at a moment when their house is on fire? No, and that's the effect Brexit is having at the moment.

It's the single biggest British political event of our lifetimes and it will decide the future direction of the country for good or ill. Pretending we can just ignore that and focus on other things, ALL of which will be effected by this event is just weird.
 

Dobba

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Do people care about being able to pay their bills each month? Sure. Do people care about their kids getting a good education? Sure. Do people think about these things at a moment when their house is on fire? No, and that's the effect Brexit is having at the moment.

It's the single biggest British political event of our lifetimes and it will decide the future direction of the country for good or ill. Pretending we can just ignore that and focus on other things, ALL of which will be effected by this event is just weird.
The single biggest British political event of my lifetime was Yvette Cooper and then the Tories deciding that disabled people like the one I loved more than anybody on the face of this earth, needed to be demonised and punished for being unable to work.

I do enjoy this line of reasoning though. So how come all these people who are suddenly concerned about the effect Brexit will have on us little people, were happily throwing us under the bus for years before Cameron dreamt up this shit show and why can't you stop cheering them?
 

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It's not a failure. It should have been a bigger margin because the main opponent was the same guy who was unseated by a petition of 19% of the constituents for submitting false expenses. It kinda shows the weakness of the other parties with the Conservatives fielding any old shit and still making it a close contest. It's ridiculously frustrating to see.
And? As if the majority of voters don't vote for the party and the politics instead of the actual MP.

If you manage to be disappointed at the overturning of this 2017 result, then the problem is merely with your exceptions, I'd say.
 

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Do people care about being able to pay their bills each month? Sure. Do people care about their kids getting a good education? Sure. Do people think about these things at a moment when their house is on fire? No, and that's the effect Brexit is having at the moment.

It's the single biggest British political event of our lifetimes and it will decide the future direction of the country for good or ill. Pretending we can just ignore that and focus on other things, ALL of which will be effected by this event is just weird.
That is Corbyn in a nutshell. He is is totally ambivalent about Brexit. He cares more about the social issues and injustices. Nothing wrong with that but, as per your post he doesn't appear to be able to join the dots.
 

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The single biggest British political event of my lifetime was Yvette Cooper and then the Tories deciding that disabled people like the one I loved more than anybody on the face of this earth, needed to be demonised and punished for being unable to work.

I do enjoy this line of reasoning though. So how come all these people who are suddenly concerned about the effect Brexit will have on us little people, were happily throwing us under the bus for years before Cameron dreamt up this shit show and why can't you stop cheering them?
And do you know what is going to happen? They will continue to do that with more and more people and if we don't get rid of them.

There's currently no chance of that happening if Corbyn continues to ignore the Brexit elephant.

People are not oblivious to the social issues, millions face them everyday, but they're sick and tired of hearing about Brexit, it just needs to go away so the focus can shift back to the things that are affecting people's lives on the daily.
 

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I'm not shocked by the numbers that still voted Conservative in the by-election. I don't think voters were particularly outraged that he fudged a few accounts with no particular financial gain and decided to still go out and vote for him.

As for Labour, I don't think they're appealing to enough people by trying to please all. I think adopting either extreme spells doom for them after Brexit is finalised given how traditional Labour territories in the north of the UK feel about versus London, Scotland etc
 

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As you said they're not expected to win it and will have barely campaigned especially given it's not a GE campaign. It's not been won since the 70s.

This was a Lib Dem seat to win and they should have done it by a much bigger margin considering the tory candidate.
But surely the argument it's a seat they weren't going to win isn't really relevant if they have decided to stand there? If they were so unconvinced at even making a respectable crack at it, they'd have been as well standing aside for the Lib Dems. I get that it wasn't a target seat but a party for aspiring for government shouldn't be seeing their vote cut by a third in any seat they're standing for.

To put it simply - if someone had shown you the 2017 result for that seat, and said last year there'd be a by-election, and that the Lib Dems would get over eight times the total vote of the vote Labour did, then any Corbyn fan would've likely laughed in their face.

If Labour choose to stand in seats then they're going to get judged on their results in those seats.
 

Smores

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But surely the argument it's a seat they weren't going to win isn't really relevant if they have decided to stand there? If they were so unconvinced at even making a respectable crack at it, they'd have been as well standing aside for the Lib Dems. I get that it wasn't a target seat but a party for aspiring for government shouldn't be seeing their vote cut by a third in any seat they're standing for.

To put it simply - if someone had shown you the 2017 result for that seat, and said last year there'd be a by-election, and that the Lib Dems would get over eight times the total vote of the vote Labour did, then any Corbyn fan would've likely laughed in their face.

If Labour choose to stand in seats then they're going to get judged on their results in those seats.
There are more benefits to standing for a seat than just winning it. Labour won't stand aside from seats without very good reason.

I'm not saying it's a good result I'm just saying it's not really worthy of much analysis. It's a Tory/Lib Dem swing seat in a constituency where the current Tory MP is being actively kicked out so it shouldn't be a surprise that people got behind the main opposition there. If i was in that seat I'd have probably voted Lib Dem too just to get rid of the Tory, which is what usually happens in these kind of seats.
 

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And do you know what is going to happen? They will continue to do that with more and more people and if we don't get rid of them.

There's currently no chance of that happening if Corbyn continues to ignore the Brexit elephant.

People are not oblivious to the social issues, millions face them everyday, but they're sick and tired of hearing about Brexit, it just needs to go away so the focus can shift back to the things that are affecting people's lives on the daily.
If by getting rid of them you mean whitewashing their records on such issues to give them rapturous receptions (i.e. Soubry, Grieve and Woke Jo Johnson) then absolutely. Look at the reaction people bringing up how Jo Swinson actually votes got.
 

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But surely the argument it's a seat they weren't going to win isn't really relevant if they have decided to stand there? If they were so unconvinced at even making a respectable crack at it, they'd have been as well standing aside for the Lib Dems. I get that it wasn't a target seat but a party for aspiring for government shouldn't be seeing their vote cut by a third in any seat they're standing for.

To put it simply - if someone had shown you the 2017 result for that seat, and said last year there'd be a by-election, and that the Lib Dems would get over eight times the total vote of the vote Labour did, then any Corbyn fan would've likely laughed in their face.

If Labour choose to stand in seats then they're going to get judged on their results in those seats.
You're not going to get Labour to stand aside on seats in England, Wales & Ireland any time soon. No matter how small a chance they have of winning. Pretty sure the Tories are the same.

If you'd told the Corbynite that the Tory majority was down to 2 and that the Lib Dems historically had a much better chance of winning the seat I'm not convinced they would have laughed in your face but we'll have no way of knowing especially since "Corbynites" don't have homogeneous views as much as dickheads would like to call them cultists or whatever the new insult is.
 

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You're not going to get Labour to stand aside on seats in England, Wales & Ireland any time soon. No matter how small a chance they have of winning. Pretty sure the Tories are the same.

If you'd told the Corbynite that the Tory majority was down to 2 and that the Lib Dems historically had a much better chance of winning the seat I'm not convinced they would have laughed in your face but we'll have no way of knowing especially since "Corbynites" don't have homogeneous views as much as dickheads would like to call them cultists or whatever the new insult is.
Labour need a kick up the arse then. This Tory government needs to be toppled before anything else positive can be achieved, and if that requires some tactical voting then that should be a no brainer. Especially as the other parties would reciprocate and help Labour win seats they might otherwise lose.