Rewatch Kelly's challenge on Martial and explain how he can escape a red card for a deliberate foul inside the box?
Cahill's challenge on Martial also was as cynical as they come. that's a red too.
State of the refs in this country
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Cahill's challenge on Martial also was as cynical as they come. that's a red too.
You aren’t too wrong here but if every attack we try to start leads to getting fouled (even if it’s just a minor one) then of course we’re going to struggle. We were also denied a penalty and the time wasting was also diabolical.
It was absurd that the Martial foul wasn't given as a pen.
It would've been a horrendous decision before VAR , but to still not give it with VAR? They should come out and explain their decision because it doesn't make sense otherwise.
The fact that even with VAR that Martial penalty claim wasn't awarded was just mind-boggling.
It would've been a horrendous decision before VAR , but to still not give it with VAR? They should come out and explain their decision because it doesn't make sense otherwise.
In no way am I personally blaming the refereeing for our result today as, like you say, we shot ourselves in the foot, but that doesn't mean said refereeing doesn't deserve criticism.
The fact that even with VAR that Martial penalty claim wasn't awarded was just mind-boggling.
Say's it all doesn't it? Complete and utter farce today.
I’m not saying they can’t get red carded for these types of fouls. I’m just letting you know that the rules have changed. I thought a penalty and a yellow would of been a fair outcome. Unfortunately we got nothing
I was raging with the officiating today but the difficulty of facing shit house teams is not exclusive to us - City and Liverpool cope just fine. We need to stop making excuses for our mediocrity. We missed penalties and made shit defensive errors.
I get it. I looked up the rules to make sure it wasn't me. Considering the way the match was being played, with Palace defenders being extremely rough and cynical, I would want the ref to follow the law to the letter and not let them off with anything. Letting them off gives them something to take advantage of, which they definitely did do today.
If he had punished Cahill strongly earlier on, maybe they wouldn't have been so dirty. I don't blame them though, they are pros. I fully blame the refs.
The referee's incompetence endangered the players.
I have just read the article again and yes, it’s a straight red if the foul is deliberate and prevents a clear goal scoring opportunity.
So Cahill should of been sent off. Clear as day
That only applies to offences inside the box. Cahill's was a definite red, as it was a clear DOGSO that took place outside of the box. Kelly's could also easily have been a red, as holding is generally not considered an attempt to play or challenge for the ball.
Relevant explanations from the FA:
e: Saw your latest post, but I'll leave it for the explanation as to why Kelly's could have been a red as well.
Thanks for the share that’s interesting...
So twice the ref and the VAR has failed to make a correct decision regarding red cards. And how they checked Pogba for a red card incident now is even more suspicious and infuriating... how can they mess it up so badly? I keep imagining what SAF reaction would of been after today’s game and only wish that Ole would show some of that anger too...
I've heard through the grapevine that the ref had VAR in mind and didn't give a penalty with the understanding that VAR was watching and would tell him if it was. He was afraid of doing something wrong they said, and that the misunderstanding happened when VAR team decided to trust the refs opinion due to the slight interpretative aspect of it. They both knew it was a penalty, but didn't give it.
I mean, to have this happen one time is one thing but twice in the same game? Hysterically bad. At least you'd have thought the refs have been informed enough to learn the system and not become so lazy as they wont blow the whistle "let VAR take care of it". With the standard of refereeing I would be fine with that becoming the norm, but that is clearly not the way things work right now. The fact he didn't know that.... Speechless.
I mean, to have this happen one time is one thing but twice in the same game? Hysterically bad. At least you'd have thought the refs have been informed enough to learn the system and not become so lazy as they wont blow the whistle "let VAR take care of it". With the standard of refereeing I would be fine with that becoming the norm, but that is clearly not the way things work right now. The fact he didn't know that.... Speechless.
What’s the point of this shit (VAR) if they don’t look at the stonewall Martial pen and the clear red for Cahill? Proper pisstake.
And the ref just going along with the (unwarranted) narrative that James dives really summed up the cnut. Why’s he not booking Martial for diving for a pen, or Rashford then if that’s his stance? Have some consistency perhaps.
Yes, we don’t like to blame the officiating but it did cost us today even though we didn’t perform.
The ref let us down and VAR let us down. VAR is utter fecking wank.
And the ref just going along with the (unwarranted) narrative that James dives really summed up the cnut. Why’s he not booking Martial for diving for a pen, or Rashford then if that’s his stance? Have some consistency perhaps.
Yes, we don’t like to blame the officiating but it did cost us today even though we didn’t perform.
The ref let us down and VAR let us down. VAR is utter fecking wank.
It's ridiculous. James literally dived once against Wolves and got a warning for it, gets caught by the defender later and gets cautioned for diving, and all of a sudden he's an established diver. Other players have been diving for years without ever seeing a booking for it, even in the most blatant situations, and James gets booked twice in two games for actually being caught by an opponent. With how small and quick he is, he's going to get caught and go flying a lot, so I fully expect to see the incompetent idiots continue to book him for getting tackled.
Don’t want to sound like a scouse bastard but the ref cost us today.
The state of referees in the Prem has been bothering me for some time. I’ll admit, it likely grows when your team is playing poorly, but I had to turn the match off today because I just couldn’t watch that man be the one in charge of a professional match.
Nevermind the penalty/red card decisions, but the amount of fouling and kicking players that was occurring with no bookings was just unbelievable. Then Wan-Bissaka gets a yellow for pulling someone back and it happens down the other end and nothing is given. It’s getting to the point that I don’t even care to watch matches because I end up focusing on the officials and how dreadful they are, and the complete lack of consistency.
What bothers me even more is that nobody will call them out for it. Sure commentators may talk about the big incidents like the penalty but you could do a whole show on all the inconsistencies of the match which has a big impact on how a match is played. They could have had numerous players on cards in the first half alone. That changes how aggressive they can be and limits what they can do on the pitch.
The league has to do something to increase the level of officiating in my opinion.
Nevermind the penalty/red card decisions, but the amount of fouling and kicking players that was occurring with no bookings was just unbelievable. Then Wan-Bissaka gets a yellow for pulling someone back and it happens down the other end and nothing is given. It’s getting to the point that I don’t even care to watch matches because I end up focusing on the officials and how dreadful they are, and the complete lack of consistency.
What bothers me even more is that nobody will call them out for it. Sure commentators may talk about the big incidents like the penalty but you could do a whole show on all the inconsistencies of the match which has a big impact on how a match is played. They could have had numerous players on cards in the first half alone. That changes how aggressive they can be and limits what they can do on the pitch.
The league has to do something to increase the level of officiating in my opinion.
It is so ludicrous. He is literally punished for being quick.I'm pretty sure the guy would have to quit this gig in Brazil after a performance like this. For his own sake.
Agree. Sacking Mike Riley and getting younger referees in as step one. Force mandatory retirement at 45 ish like other leagues. I would like them to publish the minutes of referees meetings as well, so we can see what they're doing and why.
The difference between Salah / Martial penalty incidents yesterday puts me off even bothering with the premier league. It's not a fair sporting competition in any way shape or form.
Basically if you're the leagues "marketing flavour of the month" a slight shirt pull is a pen? If you're Martial, a rugby tackle with no attempt to play the ball isn't even a foul. You can be taken out going clean through and defender only gets a yellow?
I watched the Real game after Chelsea, Utd games yesterday, football is so much better to watch when it's officiated compitently and with consistency between different games. Plus VAR being used sensibly so you don't even notice it.
I’m sure the ref watch piece that appears on sky news, will skip past the United incidents like they have in the past.
Or, they will find some inexplicable reason to defend the decisions.
The officiating in the last 2 United games, has seriously put me off bothering to watch.
Or, they will find some inexplicable reason to defend the decisions.
The officiating in the last 2 United games, has seriously put me off bothering to watch.
We need a proper explanation of what happened in the Martial penalty incident. It's not good enough.
The most suspicious parts for me with VAR yesterday were twofold :-
Firstly the Chelsea game was live on Sky, high profile. It seemed to use VAR at every questionable decision. Checking everything. Yet in the lower profile game where we know things won't be highlighted hardly anything was checked. How didn't the Cahill yellow get checked for a red when Tammy Abraham did ?
Secondly, and this is the killer for me....how did VAR check the Rashford penalty, which wasn't a penalty.....but not the Martial one, which was?
Suggests that the VAR team and Craig Pawson, who's never given us the rub of the green as a ref, can pick and chose what to review based on their own biases. "Well we did check for a penalty on another occasion"
we just knew in advance it wasn't
Firstly the Chelsea game was live on Sky, high profile. It seemed to use VAR at every questionable decision. Checking everything. Yet in the lower profile game where we know things won't be highlighted hardly anything was checked. How didn't the Cahill yellow get checked for a red when Tammy Abraham did ?
Secondly, and this is the killer for me....how did VAR check the Rashford penalty, which wasn't a penalty.....but not the Martial one, which was?
Suggests that the VAR team and Craig Pawson, who's never given us the rub of the green as a ref, can pick and chose what to review based on their own biases. "Well we did check for a penalty on another occasion"
we just knew in advance it wasn't
Also on the buildup to our goal, Pogba takes the ball from Zaha who lashes out and kicks out at Pogba right after he's sent the ball through to Martial.
Zaha was on a yellow and should have been sent off. But of course as we scored none paid attention to that.
Anyone know if there's a blind panel that rates ref performances to keep them honest?
Like when their keeper got booked for time wasting. It was clearly Cahill who told the keeper to stay where he was, then decided to run off. But giving Cahill a 2nd yellow would have been an actual punishment, albeit too late, so he gave the keeper the card instead.
It was a really horrible performance from the ref, somehow made worse by the fact that the VAR team must have been able to see all the mistakes.
There's certainly a blind panel, but i wouldn't count on it being honest. Look at the reporting and narrative from the match. Is the general public aware that we were robbed of at least 2 clear red cards yesterday? No. The concrete rules are subjective apparently.
But the ref gave Cahill a yellow and us a free-kick for the exact offence described above? Martial was clean through on goal with Cahill the last man who cynically took him out.
Based on this explanation, Kelly should have got a red for manhandling Martial to the ground inside the box. It wasn't even called as a foul.
Don't forget all the roughhousing and time-wasting allowed to go unpunished by the ref.
Why didn't Var step in to correct the referee?
So the referee and Var team clearly do not understand the rules and made a mockery of the match. You would think this would be a massive deal, but it's been swept under the carpet by the media.
The refs aren't even called out on their mistakes by the media, so what chance have we got? It's all one big farce by everyone involved.
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There is no way to justify it. They were both clear red cards which are fully defined and explained within the rules. It will just be swept under the carpet and forgotten about. Because if they report on it, everyone will know the referee and Var team clearly aren't fit for purpose.
I have seen some bad referee performances over the years, which ruins the enjoyment of the sport for me, but yesterday was insane considering we were supposed to have Var.
According to the BBC article its a yellow if it was deemed accidental. I think this makes it too easy for a ref to hide behind the rationale that 'he caught him accidentally'. Cahill deliberately grabbed Martial's arm though so the ref bottled this decision like many others.
Wasn't there an argument for Zaha getting a second yellow in the build-up to James goal for the late tackle on Pogba? He wouldn't then have been on the pitch to help them get their second.
I admit we weren't great in the first half, the setup was a bit strange and our play was extremely lethargic but even still, we were well on course for a victory in the second half i thought.
It felt like there was one set of rules for us and another for Palace, which says it all about the standard of refereeing yesterday.
I can't imagine too many neutrals could have enjoyed that too.
I'm not sure what we can do, but one thing I know probably would make a difference is if the fans did a bit more. You watch matches at Anfield, or the Camp Nou or pretty much any Italian stadium when the ref starts making some bad decisions and the pressure gets ratcheted up, it becomes deafening. Of course refs aren't supposed to react, but they're human beings.
We just kind of roll over and shrug now.
Personally I'm a bit disappointed in Ole for not saying anything. If he comes out with the comment that the poster did, something like: "People say we didn't create enough, twice our number 9 is through on goal and twice he is stopped illegally - so maybe we create but how do you overcome that?" it puts pressure back on the team for next time. At present we're the easiest club in the land to treat badly. All the other fans are delighted, we're used to it so stay quiet and Ole smiles and says these things happen.
We just kind of roll over and shrug now.
Personally I'm a bit disappointed in Ole for not saying anything. If he comes out with the comment that the poster did, something like: "People say we didn't create enough, twice our number 9 is through on goal and twice he is stopped illegally - so maybe we create but how do you overcome that?" it puts pressure back on the team for next time. At present we're the easiest club in the land to treat badly. All the other fans are delighted, we're used to it so stay quiet and Ole smiles and says these things happen.
That is the explanation for the offence commited by Cahill. Clearly states he should never have been awarded just a yellow.
The Zaha one, he definitely was late on Pogba and took him out. Considering he sarcastically applauded the ref for giving him a yellow in the first place, which Rooney was sent off for in the past, he was lucky to stay on the pitch.
Milovojevic was on a yellow when he took McTominay out for the penalty. That's a yellow and sending off for a DOGSO inside the box. He should have got a red too.
Don't forget Kelly's red card for a DOGSO inside the box, where he made no attempt to play the ball and deliberately bought him down.
There's 4 red cards. Absurd.
what about a second yellow for Milojevic (not sure spelling) for his trip on McTominay on the penalty? Anywhere else on the pitch that is a yellow so why not in this scenario? Not sure that falls under the double jeopardy rule, since it's a second yellow, not a straight red.
McArthur also got away with so many kicks after the whistle, holding the ball on our free kicks..and the ref would defend him when he's holding the ball and we can't play it, was crazy. Similar to the substitution incident. Player takes long route, McTominay runs over to hurry him along and the ref pushes Scott away and allow the player to continue at a slow trot all the way across the pitch.
Were you at Old Trafford yesterday? I was and the crowd was going ballistic at the big decisions which went against us.
Refs have been braver against us since Fergie left, as they knew he'd annihilate them both at the game, and in the press. Very clever at putting pressure on
Spot on
Yes but singing ‘you scouse b@stard’ means nothing. I really don’t get that. Why don’t we just sing ‘the referees a w@nker’
Weren't they chanting that at Kelly?
Is there one referee left in the league that you could say is a legitimately a good one? Maybe, Anthony Taylor as I can't remember him making a lot of controversial decisions.
It all depends on who you ask. I seem to recall Arsenal fans in particular hating Anthony Taylor. I think they're all shite to varying degrees.
Shambles that 3 years later this thread still relevant, looking forward to it being bumped every year for the next 10 years at least.