Why are we dropping the standards for Ole?

[Ecstatic]

I do not like this thread.

The management had to replace Mourinho. Ole was supposed to be an interim manager recruited because of his extreme familiarity with the club and squad.

His first games were extremely positive and the management gave him his chance.

Standards are derived fron the squad's quality in a much more competitive landscape than in the past.

Also, his powers are more restricted than you would think.

 

[SteveW]

This thread shows nothing other than how entitled our fanbase are. None of the performances were bad so far this season. There is clearly progress being made but we need time and a few more signings.

It took Klopp 2 years to get Liverpool going but people expect Ole to do it overnight without even being backed in the transfer market. We have a small squad and we are relying on youngsters to make up the difference. This will take time no matter who the manager is.

His signings look good, we are playing better football and with a bit of luck could have won all 4 games. It's time to back Ole and see what they can do over the next few months. This constant moaning is helping nobody.

 

[SteveW]

If you're given 150m for one transfer budget, and you cant even create a team good enough to challenge top 6 then it's on the manager.

You can blame the board if we cant win the league, or sustained a title challenge. But not finishing top 6 with our squad is a sackable offence.

Do you think we wont challenge for top 6? That's mental

 

[ayushreddevil9]

This thread shows nothing other than how entitled our fanbase are. None of the performances were bad so far this season. There is clearly progress being made but we need time and a few more signings.

It took Klopp 2 years to get Liverpool going but people expect Ole to do it overnight without even being backed in the transfer market. We have a small squad and we are relying on youngsters to make up the difference. This will take time no matter who the manager is.

His signings look good, we are playing better football and with a bit of luck could have won all 4 games. It's time to back Ole and see what they can do over the next few months. This constant moaning is helping nobody.

Really? What I saw was cluelessness on the pitch. There are no attacking patterns, no fecking system in place. We play on the counter against everyone these days.

You don't even have to bring Klopp into discussion. He had a style and he sticked to it. He moulded his team to suit that. Ole for all good things he displayed in that winning run has put all that to trash bin for some reason and we are again playing like headless chickens on the field.

I'm okay with giving him time. Sacking him is pointless but where's the identity? Where's the in-game management? Soton were a man down but Greenwood was still warming the bench. I just wish we start playing the original Ole system.

 

[Sky1981]

Do you think we wont challenge for top 6? That's mental

Based on his form were relegation battler.

Anything could change, but based on our form the last 15 games we're looking at bottlm half at best

 

[SteveW]

Based on his form were relegation battler.

Anything could change, but based on our form the last 15 games we're looking at bottlm half at best

Why the last 15 games? Why not the last 25? Why not the last 4 games?

If you honestly think we are going to finish in the bottom half I feel for you because that's idiotic.

 

[Sky1981]

Ole doesnt need to spend 150m on defence.

His objective is a rebuilt, a slow one. Nobody expected him to win the title. Hence i think he should prioritise on less glamor signing and plug in more gaps than spending 150m on 2 defender.

Awb ane maguire are solid. But the overall strenght of the team is weaker and its not economical to spend 150m for 2 addition in the defence. We must be ruthless. Awb and maguire will probbaly won us a few pts but 4 cheaper signings in midfield and rw could probanly won us more points.

No manager gets a blank cheque. Even pep guardiola has to make use of what he had until the time comes to replace the least useful squad while making the current squad feels motivated enough to do the job. Our manager seems to be worried too much about deadweights, and their first priority is clearing them up.

I believe as bad as we think darmian and co are they can do a job with the right formation and the right motivation.

Notice all our supposed deadwoods suddenly does a better job after being moved on. Memphis, zaha, lukaku, smailing, bet on them being a good squad member to the very least. Blind was exceptional.

 

[Sky1981]

Why the last 15 games? Why not the last 25? Why not the last 4 games?

If you honestly think we are going to finish in the bottom half I feel for you because that's idiotic.

The last 25 games would put us in top 6 at least. But sure. You'd rather dwelve in optimism, your call. I based mine of actual stats and facts. Call it biased or selective but at the end of the day we won 3 in our last 16.

 

[SteveW]

Really? What I saw was cluelessness on the pitch. There are no attacking patterns, no fecking system in place. We play on the counter against everyone these days.

You don't even have to bring Klopp into discussion. He had a style and he sticked to it. He moulded his team to suit that. Ole for all good things he displayed in that winning run has put all that to trash bin for some reason and we are again playing like headless chickens on the field.

I'm okay with giving him time. Sacking him is pointless but where's the identity? Where's the in-game management? Soton were a man down but Greenwood was still warming the bench. I just wish we start playing the original Ole system.

Im not going to bother arguing with your assessment of those games because you are miles off.

But towards your point about systems and patterns of play etc. This stuff takes time. Have a bit of patience.

 

[SteveW]

The last 25 games would put us in top 6 at least. But sure. You'd rather dwelve in optimism, your call. I based mine of actual stats and facts. Call it biased or selective but at the end of the day we won 3 in our last 16.

Its completely selective. No point in pretending to be a reasoned fact based observer when you are going to be as selective as that.

Couple of penalties hit the net and facts would have us level with City. You need to look at the context too.

 

[SteveW]

Ole doesnt need to spend 150m on defence.

His objective is a rebuilt, a slow one. Nobody expected him to win the title. Hence i think he should prioritise on less glamor signing and plug in more gaps than spending 150m on 2 defender.

Awb ane maguire are solid. But the overall strenght of the team is weaker and its not economical to spend 150m for 2 addition in the defence. We must be ruthless. Awb and maguire will probbaly won us a few pts but 4 cheaper signings in midfield and rw could probanly won us more points.

No manager gets a blank cheque. Even pep guardiola has to make use of what he had until the time comes to replace the least useful squad while making the current squad feels motivated enough to do the job. Our manager seems to be worried too much about deadweights, and their first priority is clearing them up.

I believe as bad as we think darmian and co are they can do a job with the right formation and the right motivation.

Notice all our supposed deadwoods suddenly does a better job after being moved on. Memphis, zaha, lukaku, smailing, bet on them being a good squad member to the very least. Blind was exceptional.

What's our net spend?

 

[Enigma_87]

So you are happy with the business done and think thins squad is good enough to challenge for major honours.

Not really. As I said if you are given 150m this is not how you do a rebuild - completely disregarding midfield and attack. You can't afford to spend 80m on a single player.

This is of course if he was restricted in terms of cash. Considering if Dybala was a realistic one (in terms of budget) and we couldn't really sell anyone else bar Pogba(who we didn't have suitors this year for his price) it's not wildly unoptimistic to say that he even might had 200m or so at his disposal.

There were tons of useful players we could've signed for about 30-40m bringing in 5-6 and not only 2-3.

 

[Enigma_87]

It makes no sense to sack him now, I wouldn't get rid of him even if we're languishing properly in mid-table. He has certain ideas about the kind of team/football he wants to build/play, give him another window and until the end of season to see if there has been any progress.

Now yes. Problem is - he's a poor manager and another one can get more out of the current players. He is not capable of producing those ideas on the pitch, hence I'd be happy with him in a technical role rather than the manager.

Another one is that our board is fickle and he's a very cheap option. Have us languish midtable the whole year and then end the season with 6-7 wins to finish 6th and they can give him a new contract.

 

[Roboc7]

If you're given 150m for one transfer budget, and you cant even create a team good enough to challenge top 6 then it's on the manager.

You can blame the board if we cant win the league, or sustained a title challenge. But not finishing top 6 with our squad is a sackable offence.

I don’t know why it would be a shock if we didn’t finish in the top six. This is a weak squad, midfield in particular is a shambles where Mctominay is a regular starter and we have number 10’s that don’t score or assist. Sixth is by no means a given and if Pogba and Martial were to be injured at same time the team is arguably just about top ten quality.

This is going to be a really difficult season, maybe our worst ever of the Premier League era. Reasons for that are numerous and a lot go back years, that’s just reality of what this club is now.

We need a top class coach and a better recruitment team until then expectations need to be realistic as whether Ole stays or goes nothing much will change.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

As I said if you are given 150m this is not how you do a rebuild - completely disregarding midfield and attack.

Depends on the nature and the time frame of the rebuild. And, not least, on what the expectations are - with regard to short term results - during said rebuild.

If it's true that Ole is now working closely with Woodward, and they're on the same page as far as both long and short term expectations are concerned, it's not particularly alarming that we haven't replaced every departure (sales and loans) man for man - yet. Not least since most of these departures weren't starting players, but more or less genuine "deadwood" in one way or another.

Then again, it's also possible that Ole is vastly overrating any number of the options currently available to him, especially in the middle of the park.

 

[Enigma_87]

Depends on the nature and the time frame of the rebuild. And, not least, on what the expectations are - with regard to short term results - during said rebuild.

If it's true that Ole is now working closely with Woodward, and they're on the same page as far as both long and short term expectations are concerned, it's not particularly alarming that we haven't replaced every departure (sales and loans) man for man - yet. Not least since most of these departures weren't starting players, but more or less genuine "deadwood" in one way or another.

Then again, it's also possible that Ole is vastly overrating any number of the options currently available to him, especially in the middle of the park.

I really doubt that the expectations during the rebuild are finishing outside top 4. It's not like it isn't feasible, even with the current state of the squad under good guidance and coaching. Our rivals aren't breaking strides either and if we're to compete with Leicester(taking one of their best players as well) we certainly should be finishing above them on paper.

If a rebuild doesn't include top 4, then you will need another rebuild each year because top players won't stick around languishing around 5-6.

Our midfield is based on Pogba - when he leaves next year as we won't be competitive, that means we're up for another rebuild.

There is absolutely no guarantee that James, Maguire, AWB will turn out to be servants for a decade. Injuries happen, sometimes they don't fit in new ideology/system. We're only 4 games into the season so we can't really pin them down as a massive success.

You simply can't disregard 2 lines in your team and rebuild one line at a time. You will get mishmash of a squad that is hugely dependent on certain players/areas and have no option in those.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don’t know why it would be a shock if we didn’t finish in the top six. This is a weak squad, midfield in particular is a shambles where Mctominay is a regular starter and we have number 10’s that don’t score or assist. Sixth is by no means a given and if Pogba and Martial were to be injured at same time the team is arguably just about top ten quality.

This is going to be a really difficult season, maybe our worst ever of the Premier League era. Reasons for that are numerous and a lot go back years, that’s just reality of what this club is now.

We need a top class coach and a better recruitment team until then expectations need to be realistic as whether Ole stays or goes nothing much will change.

Fergie won titles with a worse midfield.Good management and coaching can elevate players abilities.

There's no excuse when you had the funds and you found yourself short in certain areas.

Despite the bad Summer window our rivals for top 4 aren't exactly in much better position. Chelsea had a transfer ban, Arsenal is well...Arsenal and we have Leicester and Everton. By no means we're not competitive compared to those sides.

 

[NJM78]

Fergie won titles with a worse midfield.Good management and coaching can elevate players abilities.

There's no excuse when you had the funds and you found yourself short in certain areas.

Despite the bad Summer window our rivals for top 4 aren't exactly in much better position. Chelsea had a transfer ban, Arsenal is well...Arsenal and we have Leicester and Everton. By no means we're not competitive compared to those sides.

Exactly this, it's like if we finish in 6th again Ole would have done a great job, I dont buy that. We were close to top 4 last season and if it wasnt for that abysmal last two months of the season probably would have made it.
That was blamed on fitness and Jose. Now that excuse is not there anymore and I could easily see us being in the bottom half by the end of this month. Ole like the players need to take responsibility and do their job better, window was bad but that has gone now. We can't just be excusing dropping points every week!

 

[Roboc7]

Fergie won titles with a worse midfield.Good management and coaching can elevate players abilities.

There's no excuse when you had the funds and you found yourself short in certain areas.

Despite the bad Summer window our rivals for top 4 aren't exactly in much better position. Chelsea had a transfer ban, Arsenal is well...Arsenal and we have Leicester and Everton. By no means we're not competitive compared to those sides.

The league is more competitive 5th-8th is this squads level. The games has moved on and this club as a whole has been left behind.

Expectations have to be lowered because there’s no ambition or competence at the club. If Ole goes it’s incompetent people finding a replacement, there’s the same issues every transfer window etc etc. This is the club now it’s what we do, can’t expect title challenges or even top 4 finishes whoever is in charge.

Ole isn’t a great manager but the club is broken and until that changes it’s more of same.

 

[romufc]

We are in the very beginning of a multi year/transfer window tear down and complete rebuild of team and club culture with NO focus on where we are in the league right now. This team in its current form cant compete. SAF couldnt win with this team. but you expect Ole to?
Tear down and Rebuild from the ground up IS the business plan..
again not sure how so many people have missed this or why so many people are struggling with this concept.

scrap everything that happened POST SAF. Tear down, re-build
get the deadwood OUT, get the right players in, build around YOUTH, PACE, and POWER - rinse and repeat until the results come.

No one is getting sacked anytime soon because a team that can't compete doesn't compete.

Yes, I agree and I am much happier with this plan.

I think the comment about SAF couldn't win with this team is crap, just have a look at the team he won his last title with.

I don't expect Ole to win the league this year, but I do expect to get top 4 and look to challenge next year.

 

[Leftback99]

Fergie won titles with a worse midfield.Good management and coaching can elevate players abilities.

Which season was this? Even if it was true we would have had a far better attack and/or defence than what we have now.

Was Mancini a better manager than SAF in 11/12? No he just had better players at his disposal.

 

[romufc]

And a big part of that plan should be to ensure that Manchester United has the very best coaches to deliver the very best coaching in order to improve each of the players within the squad.
To me that is a fundamental problem with United.
Far too many players are either bought but fail to perform or come into the squad and don't improve.
We only have to look at City to see the massive improvements that Pep and their coaching staff have achieved.
By comparison, we are light years behind.
And until that changes we will not be able to challenge for the top honours.

I agree, we are years behind some of these teams. When you look at players who have improved under Pep, Klopp and Poch and we our players have done nothing.
Rashford - broke into the scene 4 years ago, he needs a manager to improve him - can you imagine him under pep or klopp?
Martial - Stagnant
Lingard - Regressed
Pogba - Stagnant
Shaw - Regressed
CB's - Stagnant

It is so worrying to see and when we get players who we think will propel us, Sanchez and Lukaku became worse at United.

Lukaku's last season at Everton, he was lethal a menace to play against

Don't get me started on Sanchez.

So is this the manager? or the coaches?

 

[Enigma_87]

Which season was this? Even if it was true we would have had a far better attack and/or defence than what we have now.

Was Mancini a better manager than SAF in 11/12? No he just had better players at his disposal.

Last title? Carrick was on his last legs, we had Cleverley, Anderson, Giggs on last legs rotating in the center.

Not sure we had the far better squad in other positions either. Apart from RvP being the bright individual you had off peak players and rotational players at best.

We had plenty of injuries as well.

 

[Leftback99]

I think the comment about SAF couldn't win with this team is crap, just have a look at the team he won his last title with.

There's no comparison. Rooney and Van Persie up front, Scholes, Carrick, Rio, Vidic, Evra, Rafael, Giggs, Valencia, Nani. Who are our equivalents these days?

It's obvious the standard of player has dropped so we can't currently expect the same standard of results.

 

[Enigma_87]

The league is more competitive 5th-8th is this squads level. The games has moved on and this club as a whole has been left behind.

Expectations have to be lowered because there’s no ambition or competence at the club. If Ole goes it’s incompetent people finding a replacement, there’s the same issues every transfer window etc etc. This is the club now it’s what we do, can’t expect title challenges or even top 4 finishes whoever is in charge.

Ole isn’t a great manager but the club is broken and until that changes it’s more of same.

I don't buy that. We are as competitive as any other team bar City/Liverpool, granted put Spurs if you like. You are only lowering the expectations because we have a poor coach.

If we had Rodgers or Poch and Spurs/Leicester had Ole would you say that expectations would've been quite different?

It's the manager that's the difference at the moment when we compare those squads/clubs.

No one is expecting to mount a challenge, but excusing a finish outside top 4 is really poor state of affairs.

 

[Leftback99]

Last title? Carrick was on his last legs, we had Cleverley, Anderson, Giggs on last legs rotating in the center.

Not sure we had the far better squad in other positions either. Apart from RvP being the bright individual you had off peak players and rotational players at best.

We had plenty of injuries as well.

Carrick was outstanding that season (and was still our best CM for LVG), we also had Scholes. Some players were past their peak but still far better than what we have now like Rooney.

 

[romufc]

There's no comparison. Rooney and Van Persie up front, Scholes, Carrick, Rio, Vidic, Evra, Rafael, Giggs, Valencia, Nani. Who are our equivalents these days?

It's obvious the standard of player has dropped so we can't currently expect the same standard of results.

Yes, standards have dropped but it is the managers who have brought these players in. Why should we drop our standards because the manager's in charge fail to bring in the necessary quality? or improve the quality of current players.

In comparison, that was an ageing squad and at the moment we have a young squad

Maguire, AWB, Pogba, Martial, Rashford, DDG all have those qualities.

 

[JustAGuest]

I don't buy that. We are as competitive as any other team bar City/Liverpool, granted put Spurs if you like. You are only lowering the expectations because we have a poor coach.

If we had Rodgers or Poch and Spurs/Leicester had Ole would you say that expectations would've been quite different?

It's the manager that's the difference at the moment when we compare those squads/clubs.

No one is expecting to mount a challenge, but excusing a finish outside top 4 is really poor state of affairs.

I agree we are on a level to compete with everyone bar the top 2. My expectations include a top 4 finish, but it's a race for 2 places between 4 teams, so it's by no means a guarantee.

 

[Leftback99]

Yes, standards have dropped but it is the managers who have brought these players in. Why should we drop our standards because the manager's in charge fail to bring in the necessary quality? or improve the quality of current players.

In comparison, that was an ageing squad and at the moment we have a young squad

Maguire, AWB, Pogba, Martial, Rashford, DDG all have those qualities.

I don't think it's only on the managers but since SAF retired we've tried to replace a squad of ageing but top class players with 2nd rate cheaper options and got it wrong nearly every time. We've tried replacing a title winning squad with top 6 standard players and this is where we end up.

We pin our hopes on Rashford but in 4 years he's never shown anything like Rooney, Ronaldo, Van Nistelrooy etc level that set our standard for a forward.

 

[romufc]

I don't think it's only on the managers but since SAF retired we've tried to replace a squad of ageing but top class players with 2nd rate cheaper options and got it wrong nearly every time. We've tried replacing a title winning squad with top 6 standard players and this is where we end up.

We pin our hopes on Rashford but in 4 years he's never shown anything like Rooney, Ronaldo, Van Nistelrooy etc level that set our standard for a forward.

I think Rashford is a funny one because people still forget he is 21, he could easily become a top player in a year or 2.

 

[kopviolator]

I don't know if Ole should be at the reigns or not but all talks about dropped standards and firing him when he's trying to clean house after gross negligence by our utterly incompetent management seems nuts to me. Our game is improving, we're recruiting decently, we're getting rid of deadwood and we're giving youth a chance. Points will come but this terrible fecking squad won't be repaired over one or two windows. And when Pogba goes next summer (by no fault of Ole btw) he will have to deal with that too.

 

[Sky1981]

I think Rashford is a funny one because people still forget he is 21, he could easily become a top player in a year or 2.

No he doesnt.

Just because he's young doesnt mean he'll be twice as good next year.

Most players plateaued at 22, with a slight improvement from experience. Not everyone is ronaldo

 

[Enigma_87]

Carrick was outstanding that season (and was still our best CM for LVG), we also had Scholes. Some players were past their peak but still far better than what we have now like Rooney.

Our best player is Pogba now. Of course Carrick was excellent but we were very limited in terms of choices. Cleverley I think was our second most capped player in midfield. Scholes barely played. We didn't have much options in midfield that year to be fair either. Everyone was moaning that we didn't do much to reinforce that area in the team for years.

Rooney wasn't that that pivotal either that season. He had patches of form. Many were on their last legs. In terms of names there were Vidic/Evra, Rio - but all of them were also injured/not at their best.

I agree we are on a level to compete with everyone bar the top 2. My expectations include a top 4 finish, but it's a race for 2 places between 4 teams, so it's by no means a guarantee.

Yes, by no means it's a guarantee, but if we had more competent manager I'm pretty sure many would demand a top 4 finish, rather than lowering the expectations because it's Ole.

 

[Sky1981]

First. Answer this :

What's our expectations this year?

 

[Leftback99]

Yes, by no means it's a guarantee, but if we had more competent manager I'm pretty sure many would demand a top 4 finish, rather than lowering the expectations because it's Ole.

I predicted 6th last season under Mourinho even after finishing 2nd, based on the quality of the squad.

 

[Enigma_87]

I predicted 6th last season under Mourinho even after finishing 2nd, based on the quality of the squad.

Based on the quality of the squad last season no way Jose should've been allowed to finish 6th. Backed or not. If he did that he should have been sacked.

 

[TRUERED89]

This thread shows nothing other than how entitled our fanbase are. None of the performances were bad so far this season. There is clearly progress being made but we need time and a few more signings.

It took Klopp 2 years to get Liverpool going but people expect Ole to do it overnight without even being backed in the transfer market. We have a small squad and we are relying on youngsters to make up the difference. This will take time no matter who the manager is.

His signings look good, we are playing better football and with a bit of luck could have won all 4 games. It's time to back Ole and see what they can do over the next few months. This constant moaning is helping nobody.

I'm definitely not Ole out, but for the bolded part above; have you forgotten we got beaten by palace for the first time in PL history!? 5 from 12 points is cr@p, So I have to disagree that performances weren't bad. Chelsea result was flattering too if you look at it in context.

 

[romufc]

No he doesnt.

Just because he's young doesnt mean he'll be twice as good next year.

Most players plateaued at 22, with a slight improvement from experience. Not everyone is ronaldo

He doesn't what?

Did I say he will be twice as good?

Alot of players improve post 23/24 btw.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

I'm definitely not Ole out, but for the bolded part above; have you forgotten we got beaten by palace for the first time in PL history!? 5 from 12 points is cr@p, So I have to disagree that performances weren't bad. Chelsea result was flattering too if you look at it in context.

If the refs and var hadn’t been useless in that palace game the result would have been totally different.

 

[roonster09]

I don't think it's only on the managers but since SAF retired we've tried to replace a squad of ageing but top class players with 2nd rate cheaper options and got it wrong nearly every time. We've tried replacing a title winning squad with top 6 standard players and this is where we end up.

We pin our hopes on Rashford but in 4 years he's never shown anything like Rooney, Ronaldo, Van Nistelrooy etc level that set our standard for a forward.

We didn't sign cheaper options, we just didn't hire better manager/coach who had ability to bring the best out of the players. We signed players who had very good seasons and showed lot of promise, somehow most of them didn't step up. If we had someone like Klopp, Poch most of the players would have been a success.

2014-15:
Herrera - Very good player for Bilbao
Shaw - PFA team of the year when he was just 18
Blind - Dutch league footballer of the year.
Di Maria - CL team of the season, most assists in La Liga, FIFA team of the year.
Rojo - Not sure how good he was for Sporting but he was good in the world cup. We can add him to not so good category.

2015-16:
Depay - Dutch league top scorer and 2nd best player. Rated as best young player by France Football.
Darmian - Serie A team of the season for 2 seasons
Schneiderlin - He was very good for Southampton
Martial - Golden boy award winner in 2015
Schweinsteiger - He was on decline.

2016-17
Pogba - Serie A team of the season, FIFA team of the season, I think most assists in Serie A
Zlatan - He had probably his best season for PSG
Mkhitaryan - Among top 3 players in Bundesliga, most assists in Bundesliga
Bailly -

At least till that point, we signed players who had good seasons. Next season we signed Lukaku who scored 25 league goals, Matic who was one of the main midfielders for the team that won the league.

Somehow they all regressed once they joined the club, at least most of them.