Why are we dropping the standards for Ole?

[Enigma_87]

We didn't sign cheaper options, we just didn't hire better manager/coach who had ability to bring the best out of the players. We signed players who had very good seasons and showed lot of promise, somehow most of them didn't step up. If we had someone like Klopp, Poch most of the players would have been a success.

2014-15:
Herrera - Very good player for Bilbao
Shaw - PFA team of the year when he was just 18
Blind - Dutch league footballer of the year.
Di Maria - CL team of the season, most assists in La Liga, FIFA team of the year.
Rojo - Not sure how good he was for Sporting but he was good in the world cup. We can add him to not so good category.

2015-16:
Depay - Dutch league top scorer and 2nd best player. Rated as best young player by France Football.
Darmian - Serie A team of the season for 2 seasons
Schneiderlin - He was very good for Southampton
Martial - Golden boy award winner in 2015
Schweinsteiger - He was on decline.

2016-17
Pogba - Serie A team of the season, FIFA team of the season, I think most assists in Serie A
Zlatan - He had probably his best season for PSG
Mkhitaryan - Among top 3 players in Bundesliga, most assists in Bundesliga
Bailly -

At least till that point, we signed players who had good seasons. Next season we signed Lukaku who scored 25 league goals, Matic who was one of the main midfielders for the team that won the league.

Somehow they all regressed once they joined the club, at least most of them.

Some of those players suffered injuries that set them back and you really can't predict that. Shaw, Bailly, even Rojo who oddly enough looked good for couple of months.

Indeed coaching is the root of the problem, because most if not all regressed. Depay for example was badly treated - hitting the gym and taking the agility out of him, considering he wasn't the most dynamic forward to begin with. Mkhi was a total failure - it's like different player that came here. You also missed Sanchez.

Some players were just average, Schneiderlin(despite the stats), Fred..

Some times it was not identifying the talent as a main issue but rather bedding that player in a coherent style.

 

[Leftback99]

Based on the quality of the squad last season no way Jose should've been allowed to finish 6th. Backed or not. If he did that he should have been sacked.

That's just how I saw it. It didn't look good enough for a higher finish even with one of the top managers in charge and so it proved.

 

[roonster09]

Some of those players suffered injuries that set them back and you really can't predict that. Shaw, Bailly, even Rojo who oddly enough looked good for couple of months.

Indeed coaching is the root of the problem, because most if not all regressed. Depay for example was badly treated - hitting the gym and taking the agility out of him, considering he wasn't the most dynamic forward to begin with. Mkhi was a total failure - it's like different player that came here. You also missed Sanchez.

Some players were just average, Schneiderlin(despite the stats), Fred..

Some times it was not identifying the talent as a main issue but rather bedding that player in a coherent style.

I did till only 2016-17, from 2017-18 it wasn't very good.

Yeah, coaching has been the issue. Big problem is Woodward + managers.

 

[SteveW]

I'm definitely not Ole out, but for the bolded part above; have you forgotten we got beaten by palace for the first time in PL history!? 5 from 12 points is cr@p, So I have to disagree that performances weren't bad. Chelsea result was flattering too if you look at it in context.

Results and performances are not the same thing.

 

[Leftback99]

Tomorrow Leicester will have a better starting line up than us. That's unfortunately where we're at, Ole or otherwise.

 

[Sky1981]

He doesn't what?

Did I say he will be twice as good?

Alot of players improve post 23/24 btw.

Top player he aint gonna be next year

 

[romufc]

Top player he aint gonna be next year

Okay, using your special skills will we finish top 4 next year?

 

[Sky1981]

Okay, using your special skills will we finish top 4 next year?

No need to be sarcastic mate. I'm not the one with a grand predicition here

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Depends on the nature and the time frame of the rebuild. And, not least, on what the expectations are - with regard to short term results - during said rebuild.

If it's true that Ole is now working closely with Woodward, and they're on the same page as far as both long and short term expectations are concerned, it's not particularly alarming that we haven't replaced every departure (sales and loans) man for man - yet. Not least since most of these departures weren't starting players, but more or less genuine "deadwood" in one way or another.

Then again, it's also possible that Ole is vastly overrating any number of the options currently available to him, especially in the middle of the park.

We've said before that no world-class manager would tolerate this squad. Well, one thing to consider, is - think about the quality of footballer Ole is used to working with. Think about the squads he's managed in the past. This squad might well seem 'good' to Ole to be honest and that's partially why this could prove to be a disastrous appointment. We need to separate Ole the player from Ole the manager and you can bet Ole does the same - he's not looking at Cardiff, Molde and this current squad and comparing those teams/players to the class of 99.

This what worries me. Ole might genuinely believe that what he has is good enough, when it's the complete opposite.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Tomorrow Leicester will have a better starting line up than us. That's unfortunately where we're at, Ole or otherwise.

Yep. The fact Leicester will be bookies favourites against United at home also shows that.

 

[Enigma_87]

Tomorrow Leicester will have a better starting line up than us. That's unfortunately where we're at, Ole or otherwise.

This is the difference between established manager and Ole. No one would go into a season like that. We’re in week 4 and there is an injury crisis. Not even began playing 2 games per week.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Yep. The fact Leicester will be bookies favourites against United at home also shows that.

Well Leicester were 4/1 earlier in the week best priced 7/2 now so not really true although I am thinking it’s one of these rare occasions where I might have to get involved

 

[Casanova85]

18/19 doesn't count anymore.

1 win out of 4.

I think Ole will be sacked if were are not 4th-5th, close to 3rd, by Xmas.

 

[Leftback99]

This is the difference between established manager and Ole. No one would go into a season like that. We’re in week 4 and there is an injury crisis. Not even began playing 2 games per week.

It was the same last season under Mourinho as soon as we had a few injuries the team looked poor.

 

[Enigma_87]

It was the same last season under Mourinho as soon as we had a few injuries the team looked poor.

We didn’t have to play 17 year olds and last season is not a good comparison as Jose probably did what it takes to get sacked.

Squad was never that short even if you compare it to the 80s.

 

[Roboc7]

I don't buy that. We are as competitive as any other team bar City/Liverpool, granted put Spurs if you like. You are only lowering the expectations because we have a poor coach.

If we had Rodgers or Poch and Spurs/Leicester had Ole would you say that expectations would've been quite different?

It's the manager that's the difference at the moment when we compare those squads/clubs.

No one is expecting to mount a challenge, but excusing a finish outside top 4 is really poor state of affairs.

We’ve finished in the top 4 twice in 6 seasons we’re not a top 4 club anymore other than in supporters heads. We get worse and rest of the league gets stronger and it’s still not changing.

The manager, the players and the people running the club aren’t good enough, this squad isn’t fit for purpose and won’t finish in the top 4 it’s as simple as that. Sack Ole tomorrow and that won’t change.

 

[Leftback99]

We didn’t have to play 17 year olds and last season is not a good comparison as Jose probably did what it takes to get sacked.

Squad was never that short even if you compare it to the 80s.

We won't have to play 17 year olds tomorrow.

I agree it's our weakest squad since the 80s but it's not all on the manager.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

18/19 doesn't count anymore.

1 win out of 4.

I think Ole will be sacked if were are not 4th-5th, close to 3rd, by Xmas.

Well we won't be that is for sure.

 

[Mr Anderson]

Standards dropping as any manager would struggle here - so it's not really a standards thing, its accepting how bad a position we are really in. Jose moaned to the public about lack of business (among other things) - got him nowhere. Ole's flip flopping in press conferences shows he is told one thing and the club fail to deliver (a continuous pattern for years), so he back peddles and says "all is good".

Board were more concerned with flogging people out the door than signing the players we needed this summer. We done business but on the books we spent little. How can anyone work with a squad that is even lighter than last season?? We have a few injuries now and we are struggling already in September....

Ole is vastly inexperienced for this role - but at least with his past time as a player with us, the respect he has earned will direct pressure onto the board. Although this is a results business and he will fall on that sword eventually. But vast majority of the blame is with the board and Woodie. They agree the fees, they gave out the high wages. Now they are unwilling to hold their hands up and back the manager.

 

[Bestietom]

I keep saying that no matter what manager comes here, he can't do anything with a squad so thin as this. It's not Ole's fault that there was no replacements brought in for Herrera, Fellaini, and Lukaku.
Woodward taking the whole transfer window to sign Maguire was the problem. God help us if he wants to sign anyone in January, when he only has a month.

 

[AshRK]

Not really. As I said if you are given 150m this is not how you do a rebuild - completely disregarding midfield and attack. You can't afford to spend 80m on a single player.

This is of course if he was restricted in terms of cash. Considering if Dybala was a realistic one (in terms of budget) and we couldn't really sell anyone else bar Pogba(who we didn't have suitors this year for his price) it's not wildly unoptimistic to say that he even might had 200m or so at his disposal.

There were tons of useful players we could've signed for about 30-40m bringing in 5-6 and not only 2-3.

But you cannot forget that our defence was even more of a mess than other areas. Also, how do you know Ole did not want a midfielder and an attacker. We were after Maguire since June and it is not Ole's fault that the board could not sign him earlier. If you recall Ole's conference in mid to late July, he kept on saying he was expecting 2 or 3 players, if not 3 atleast 2 and the board only ended up giving him one in Maguire. So clearly the board did not do their job properly.

 

[red4ever 79]

I keep saying that no matter what manager comes here, he can't do anything with a squad so thin as this. It's not Ole's fault that there was no replacements brought in for Herrera, Fellaini, and Lukaku.
Woodward taking the whole transfer window to sign Maguire was the problem. God help us if he wants to sign anyone in January, when he only has a month.

We wont sign anyone in Jan. It's all a PR stunt to take the focus away from the poor start. It was the same the day after the transfer window closed and we didnt replace Lukaku, we had the DOF stories circulating again. Say what you want about Ed but he is the master of deflection.

 

[Sky1981]

We starting to create scenarios and hypothetical theory about the phantom sinister board handling ole like a puppet master.

Well at least we have a scapegoat ready for this season, and the next one. If its good ole is the genious, if shit hits the fans it's on the board.

 

[Enigma_87]

But you cannot forget that our defence was even more of a mess than other areas. Also, how do you know Ole did not want a midfielder and an attacker. We were after Maguire since June and it is not Ole's fault that the board could not sign him earlier. If you recall Ole's conference in mid to late July, he kept on saying he was expecting 2 or 3 players, if not 3 atleast 2 and the board only ended up giving him one in Maguire. So clearly the board did not do their job properly.

He did say that is happy with what Woodward has done and also was bigging up the youngsters the whole summer. It's either he had the faith in them and didn't need new recruits or identified only 1-2 options for certain positions that we were priced out/or the players rejected to move.

You can also argue the approach could limited his options(British players, etc).

He also said he wanted the business to be done early. It's bad preparation all over and bad execution in the end. There were loads of available midfielders and attackers in the summer that we didn't go after.

As much as Woodward is at fault you also have to pin it on him to leave the squad in this state...

 

[Jonno]

We sold Lukaku because it was pretty clear he's not in our plans and there was no point in keeping him. That doesn't mean we needed to sell in order to get new players in. We were hoping to get a straight swap with either Dybala or Eriksen (both rejected us) and it's not like we could've sold anyone else close to 70-80m pounds...

United didn't come from the Championship to compare them to Villa.

Who said we needed to sell to bring new players in?

I'm simply saying, we lost quality and gained quality and net spend was very low. So why are you expecting dramatic improvement when it's clear the squad has got weaker in some areas, and stronger in others, resulting in a similar strength squad?

 

[Enigma_87]

Who said we needed to sell to bring new players in?

I'm simply saying, we lost quality and gained quality and net spend was very low. So why are you expecting dramatic improvement when it's clear the squad has got weaker in some areas, and stronger in others, resulting in a similar strength squad?

You asked about net spent. If we don't need to sell I'm not sure why net spent is important for this conversation.

We lost bodies in two lines and got weaker both in midfield and attack. Pogba also is not very keen on his future here and we failed to address that too.

We needed dramatic improvement considering how we finished last season and that we finished 6th winning nothing.

The manager(supported by the CEO) should've improved all positions that needed strengthening and identify more than one target for a position if that target was not available.

We came unprepared, and managed to weaken the squad instead of reinforcing it, we even sold/loaned out players in the very end of the window without the opportunity to replace them, despite knowing from the off they are not in the manager plans.

You can blame it all on the CEO(not saying that he exempt from it by stalling some transfers), but exempting the blame from the manager who is there to evaluate the squad if it is ready for the new season is not accurate.

Maguire was on our list last Summer, James was recommended by Giggs and AWB was pretty much spotted in the beginning of the year and not really a great research.

So the question is - what the hell were Solskjaer and his staff doing whole summer not evaluating options to reinforce the team in midfield and attack?

Was there absolutely no one who can improve us in those lines in the world available for a decent price and wanting to come?

 

[romufc]

No need to be sarcastic mate. I'm not the one with a grand predicition here

Yes, a grand statement in saying Rashford will be a top player?

Just because you have 0 faith. Not like I said he is going to be world class.

 

[Hawks2008]

You asked about net spent. If we don't need to sell I'm not sure why net spent is important for this conversation.

We lost bodies in two lines and got weaker both in midfield and attack. Pogba also is not very keen on his future here and we failed to address that too.

We needed dramatic improvement considering how we finished last season and that we finished 6th winning nothing.

The manager(supported by the CEO) should've improved all positions that needed strengthening and identify more than one target for a position if that target was not available.

We came unprepared, and managed to weaken the squad instead of reinforcing it, we even sold/loaned out players in the very end of the window without the opportunity to replace them, despite knowing from the off they are not in the manager plans.

You can blame it all on the CEO(not saying that he exempt from it by stalling some transfers), but exempting the blame from the manager who is there to evaluate the squad if it is ready for the new season is not accurate.

Maguire was on our list last Summer, James was recommended by Giggs and AWB was pretty much spotted in the beginning of the year and not really a great research.

So the question is - what the hell were Solskjaer and his staff doing whole summer not evaluating options to reinforce the team in midfield and attack?

Was there absolutely no one who can improve us in those lines in the world available for a decent price and wanting to come?

Options were there. In a window where teams around us signed the likes of Rodri, Ndombele, Tielemans etc, the coach and his staff decided the only person who could improve our dire midfield is Sean Longstaff.. Our entire plan for attacking reinforcements was evidently Sancho or no one. Dybala fell into our lap but was never going to happen.

I refuse to believe that someone like Bruno Fernandes wouldn't improve us but here we are with JLingz and a past it Mata to rely on in the #10 spot.

I know Woody is a flog but lots of this is on Ole too. The manager picks the targets and the club can only try to deliver them.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Tomorrow Leicester will have a better starting line up than us. That's unfortunately where we're at, Ole or otherwise.

Yep it’s disgraceful- we should have a much better squad & manager.

 

[AshRK]

He did say that is happy with what Woodward has done and also was bigging up the youngsters the whole summer. It's either he had the faith in them and didn't need new recruits or identified only 1-2 options for certain positions that we were priced out/or the players rejected to move.

You can also argue the approach could limited his options(British players, etc).

He also said he wanted the business to be done early. It's bad preparation all over and bad execution in the end. There were loads of available midfielders and attackers in the summer that we didn't go after.

As much as Woodward is at fault you also have to pin it on him to leave the squad in this state...

You are just expecting too much from the manager in transfer department. I can fault a manager for many things but to criticise him for the board's mess is wrong. Ole has been here for 8 months but Woodward has been here for 6 years so he should be the one facing the music about why it took him 2 months to sign Maguire (I know it's not easy but we have been needing a defender since last summer). I just cannot blame Ole for the bad execution. I can blame him for poor tactics, lack of preparation or mismanagement but I just cannot fault him for the incompetence of the board or for that matter any of other previous managers too.

As for your first point well Ole only had two choices, either do a Jose and moan about the board or just work with what he has been given. He is choosing the latter and yes he has to live or die by it but it ultimately is the job for the CEO to make sure the players are signed. Ole also said we would get a replacement for the Lukaku so he clearly expected more signings but the board's incompetence and the lack of CL made it difficult for him. He clearly said in April after the Everton loss that this would be the last of many players so he clearly wanted more backing from the board, just like Pep got in 2017 when he made some whole sale changes. I don't get why we sympathise with the board for not backing the manager.

Also, you cannot fault him for wanting certain type of players. Pep is the same, Klopp is the same, sir alex was the same. MPep wanted Laporte type of defender and he got it, same with Rodri or Cancelo. Just because there are many other CBs doesn't mean the manager would like to have them. No manager does that so why should Ole do that. In fact It is good he knows what type of players he wants. He clearly wants players who wants to play for the club and that is not wrong.

 

[Sky1981]

The only way we can justify ole keeping his job is by lowering our standard and shift the blame somewhere else

 

[Leftback99]

The only way we can justify ole keeping his job is by lowering our standard and shift the blame somewhere else

I wonder who you lot will blame if we get another manager and results are still the same.

 

[romufc]

I wonder who you lot will blame if we get another manager and results are still the same.

The manager probably.When will fans realise it is NOT the manager's fault.

 

[Sky1981]

I wonder who you lot will blame if we get another manager and results are still the same.

The manager off course.

Give them 2 years. No top 4 sack. If they got top 4 we'll see from there.

No point in persisting with a bad manager in the hope they'll become fergie if given time. This isnt ole first season, he had many seasons at molde, enough to know that his level isnt there yet.

We could fool ourselves with all the right naratives but at the end of the day results doesnt lie

 

[ash_86]

I wonder who you lot will blame if we get another manager and results are still the same.

Let's see in the last 6 years we have had 4 managers and still the manager is blamed. Cannot expect them to change this POV after the 5th appointment , can we?

 

[Leftback99]

The manager probably.When will fans realise it is NOT the manager's fault.

I just find it bizarre at this point that people still think a flavour of the month manager could sweep in and solve all our problems with the same set of average players.

 

[ash_86]

The manager off course.

Give them 2 years. No top 4 sack. If they got top 4 we'll see from there.

No point in persisting with a bad manager in the hope they'll become fergie if given time. This isnt ole first season, he had many seasons at molde, enough to know that his level isnt there yet.

We could fool ourselves with all the right naratives but at the end of the day results doesnt lie

Why top4 or sack? Why not title or sack? That should be our target right?. Top4 would mean dropping our standards.

 

[AshRK]

The manager off course.

Give them 2 years. No top 4 sack. If they got top 4 we'll see from there.

No point in persisting with a bad manager in the hope they'll become fergie if given time. This isnt ole first season, he had many seasons at molde, enough to know that his level isnt there yet.

We could fool ourselves with all the right naratives but at the end of the day results doesnt lie

And how long continuing this sack process before realising that maybe we need to change the structure of the club and get a proper footballing person taking footballing decisions.

 

[romufc]

I just find it bizarre at this point that people still think a flavour of the month manager could sweep in and solve all our problems with the same set of average players.

I sometimes think, do some of these people know what is going on ? The manager is a scapegoat for all the failures from above the manager.

 

[Sky1981]

And how long continuing this sack process before realising that maybe we need to change the structure of the club and get a proper footballing person taking footballing decisions.

Why sack moyes, lvg, jose then?