LGBT Relationship Lessons in UK Schools

[Redlambs]

It's sad how you're kids are affected by a fictional couple of same sex couple of penguins. Thoughts and prayers.

So...many...grammar...mistakes...can't...control...brain...

 

[SteveJ]

It's laughable, and tragically ironic, this notion that same-sex 'indocrination' is somehow more insidious and worryingly persuasive than the prevailing notion.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I was in year 4 (so 8 years old) when for the first time some other kid told me I'd dropped my "gay card" and the same year we found a porn mag thrown away in some bushes (after beavers... this sentence is fun). I figured out what the weird vending machines that I kept seeing in toilets were by year 5.

Kids find out about this stuff young whether or not the school or parents are telling them. I'd rather they find out about these things in a positive and well informed way, rather than what we had in the 90s.

Depends what they're learning. I can understand wanting a limit on it and not going into detail but the reality is that if your kid is 9 probably knows (or thinks he knows) a bit already, a lot of which may be wrong. People say "let kids be kids" but part of being a kid is being curious and talking about sex-related stuff with your friends.

I didn't have sex-ed when I was in primary school but boys in the senior classes certainly knew and talked to each other about things like sex, threesomes, how to avoid getting girls pregnant, etc.. It was terribly misinformed and immature stuff (lads calling each other virgins as a put down without irony, calling each other gay, saying your mom likes doing X or whatever) but the awareness was there. Plus this was in a time just before kids had mobile devices, which I'm sure has seen kids presented with information at an earlier age.

And as @Redlambs pointed out a few pages back, his 8 and 10 year old already know "a scary amount" about LGBT and trans issues. Sometimes I think adults underestimate or have forgotten what primary school kids are aware of.

Also, I'm just thinking of this from a boy's perspective. Girls can get their first periods at as young an age as 10 and I'm sure they are aware of it before then. Teaching them about that is part of sex ed too which makes waiting until 11 a potential issue as I would guess there can be quite a bit of anxiety and/or feelings of shame involved.

Both fair points and I kind of agree. I remember a girl in my primary school having her period and it was gossip and not really knowing what was going on amongst us boys.
I didn’t see porn untill comp though, I remember just loving going on holidays to Greece while still in primary school and loving the naked postcards which used to have full bush back then

I just think kids all age and find out about stuff at different times, not sure if my child has been a bit more sheltered but he seems too innocent to be talking about banging one of his friends he fancies, and being taught about that is a bit too far.

Maybe I’m living my own sheltered life.

 

[Siorac]

And it's not just even political, it's a very real echo chamber here now about any and all topics. We are so entrenched in our side, we just drive away opposite thinking yet wonder why we get the likes of trump and brexit.

The Caf is full of vicious debates about, well, just about any topic imaginable. It's generally very far from being an echo chamber - this thread if 13 pages of debate, for one.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

It's laughable, and tragically ironic, this notion that same-sex 'indocrination' is somehow more insidious and worryingly persuasive than the prevailing notion.

I'd like to know why people are so afraid of a world without hate, Steve.

 

[Shamwow]

Every kid who is going to want to transition is going to have a horrible phase - it is that feeling of being trapped which is an indicator they’re in the wrong body.

It’s a necessary element in dictating whether they need transition.

They certainly will if dick head adults conspire to force them to.

 

[Redlambs]

Both fair points and I kind of agree. I remember a girl in my primary school having her period and it was gossip and not really knowing what was going on amongst us boys.
I didn’t see porn untill comp though, I remember just loving going on holidays to Greece while still in primary school and loving the naked postcards which used to have full bush back then

I just think kids all age and find out about stuff at different times, not sure if my child has been a bit more sheltered but he seems too innocent to be talking about banging one of his friends he fancies, and being taught about that is a bit too far.

Maybe I’m living my own sheltered life.

In all fairness you probably are sheltered.

These kids know a lot more than you think. Take it from someone who has complete control over all interenet related devices their kids have yet still gets hit with a haymaker or two.

 

[HTG]

So...many...grammar...mistakes...can't...control...brain...

Let‘s do it in German, then. I bet you’ll do great.

 

[SteveJ]

I'd like to know why people are so afraid of a world without hate, Steve.

Yeah, mate. I'm quite a naive thinker, I guess, so my simple view is: love is love.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

What’s illogical about it - did I say it will definitely lead to someone wanting to transition - it was ‘might’.

There's nothing that backs up your postulation. The likelihood of your scenario occuring is so miniscule that it doesn't merit consideration, hence my assertion that you're hysterical and lacking logic.

 

[Redlambs]

The Caf is full of vicious debates about, well, just about any topic imaginable. It's generally very far from being an echo chamber - this thread if 13 pages of debate, for one.

No, just because there's some debate that's not against what an echo chamber is.

Let‘s do it in German, then. I bet you’ll do great.

How about you just get to your point and save us both some time?

 

[Zlatan 7]

In all fairness you probably are sheltered.

These kids know a lot more than you think. Take it from someone who has complete control over all interenet related devices their kids have yet still gets hit with a haymaker or two.

Fair enough. Probably just find it hard to accept

 

[Smores]

The Caf is full of vicious debates about, well, just about any topic imaginable. It's generally very far from being an echo chamber - this thread if 13 pages of debate, for one.

It's not 13 pages of debate at all though is it? It's about 10 pages of yelling between the homophobic and those too up there own arse to actual debate anything. Some them staff or former staff too i recall correctly.

Why? Because someone made up a scenario about teaching 4 or 5 year olds this stuff which no one is doing or proposing to do because children that age are still trying to process what they like and dislike in simple day to day life. Mental the lot of you

 

[Synco]

It's laughable, and tragically ironic, this notion that same-sex 'indocrination' is somehow more insidious and worryingly persuasive than the prevailing notion.

Yep. More than that: there's only one of these that actually gets culturally imposed as a norm on kids and teens on a daily basis. And it isn't homosexuality.

 

[Redlambs]

Fair enough. Probably just find it hard to accept

It is hard to accept mate. Really fecking hard.

But if it matters any, just know there's so many if us going through it and none of us have a real clue what to do. In fact, being so up on technology and being able to do what I can do really hasn't helped my mental state I'm sure

 

[mancan92]

To be honest I understand aspects of what @Raees is saying.

In my opinion I would like kids to have some aspect of discovering life on their own and as Raees mentioned "allowing them to be kids". If they have questions for sure answer them in a way they will understand. Then once they hit around 9,10 have proper classes on relationships, sex and gender categories etc. Before then I feel we don't even need to specifically talk to them about anything other than basic morality ie everyone is the same, treat everyone well etc. Let them discover and once they are at an age where they can understand things properly we break it down into detail. I wouldn't teach them about any hetro relationships either have books with a mixture of life situations.

I've got over 30 cousins younger than me so have spent alot of time with small children and none of them can grasp anything to do with proper relationships until they were about 10 anyway even when I've tried to explain stuff to them.

 

[Zarlak]

Once again I never argued against the teaching of it. I said teach it, just wait until it is more age appropriate.

I have a lot more of a clue than you do pal. Throwing around accusations of homophobia to push an agenda when the person you’re throwing it at is in support of the freedom to choose your own sexuality.

You have a great ability to say one thing, and then in the same post destroy any notion of the clue you pretend to have.

 

[Zarlak]

Sorry but some of you are being massive arseholes in here. There's clearly a grey area discussion, a genuinely interesting one, to be had here yet you're reducing it to petty insults and simplistic arguments.

It was a grey area a decade ago. These days it's pretty black and white for most people. The only people who still find it a grey area are archaic and need to catch up to the rest of society.

 

[KM]

It was a grey area a decade ago. These days it's pretty black and white for most people. The only people who still find it a grey area are archaic and need to catch up to the rest of society.

Spot on.

"Grey area discussion"

 

[Kag]

Depends what they're learning. I can understand wanting a limit on it and not going into detail but the reality is that if your kid is 9 probably knows (or thinks he knows) a bit already, a lot of which may be wrong. People say "let kids be kids" but part of being a kid is being curious and talking about sex-related stuff with your friends.

I didn't have sex-ed when I was in primary school but boys in the senior classes certainly knew and talked to each other about things like sex, threesomes, how to avoid getting girls pregnant, etc.. It was terribly misinformed and immature stuff (lads calling each other virgins as a put down without irony, calling each other gay, saying your mom likes doing X or whatever) but the awareness was there. Plus this was in a time just before kids had mobile devices, which I'm sure has seen kids presented with information at an earlier age.

And as @Redlambs pointed out a few pages back, his 8 and 10 year old already know "a scary amount" about LGBT and trans issues. Sometimes I think adults underestimate or have forgotten what primary school kids are aware of.

Also, I'm just thinking of this from a boy's perspective. Girls can get their first periods at as young an age as 10 and I'm sure they are aware of it before then. Teaching them about that is part of sex ed too which makes waiting until 11 a potential issue as I would guess there can be quite a bit of anxiety and/or feelings of shame involved.

One of the better points I’ve read throughout this thread. Children shouldn’t be underestimated; they are capable of learning and comprehending a lot more than some of people in this thread (and beyond) might think.

 

[maniak]

I did not see this topic having so many pages.

 

[Hammerfell]

Once again I never argued against the teaching of it. I said teach it, just wait until it is more age appropriate.

I have a lot more of a clue than you do pal. Throwing around accusations of homophobia to push an agenda when the person you’re throwing it at is in support of the freedom to choose your own sexuality.

Christ you’re clueless. Imagine still thinking that sexuality is a choice.

 

[Smores]

It was a grey area a decade ago. These days it's pretty black and white for most people. The only people who still find it a grey area are archaic and need to catch up to the rest of society.

No teaching 4 and 5 year olds LGBT isn't black and white for "most people" because most people understand there's a difference between thinking 'there's nothing wrong with LGBT' and whether it's wise to educate very young children instead of waiting a few more years. The actual minister said it wouldn't be 4 year olds for instance.

Is there a benefit to a child being told about these things at 4 rather than 6? If so what is it other than for adults will? Should homosexuality be taught or also trans and what about the shades of gender identity including neutral gender identity? Or do those things follow later?

I suspect you've come into this thread and not actually read any of the context and lumped all opposition in as "these people want to ignore LGBT". Seems to be prevalent.

 

[Cascarino]

And it's not just even political, it's a very real echo chamber here now about any and all topics. We are so entrenched in our side, we just drive away opposite thinking yet wonder why we get the likes of trump and brexit.

I see this quite a lot but I think it’s utter bullshit. there’s no meeting in the middle when it comes to some things. If one guy thinks a non-hetero should be allowed to teach children and another doesn’t, what do you do? It wasn’t that kids were given books about gay penguins that led to us Trump and Brexit, it’s because there’s shit loads of bigots around. It feels like a weird way to try and absolve them. They voted for that shit man.

 

[Raees]

Christ you’re clueless. Imagine still thinking that sexuality is a choice.

For once and for all at no stage did I think it is a choice. It was poor wording - I meant the decision to come out is a choice but obviously the decision to be gay or transgender etc is an instinct which is developed naturally whether it is genetic or determined by natural causes etc.

 

[Raees]

You have a great ability to say one thing, and then in the same post destroy any notion of the clue you pretend to have.

Well done for overlooking the post where I explained that I didn’t think it was a choice. But like we have seen throughout this entire thread you boys can’t really debate and hence seize on any wording or phrasing error to pretend your points are valid.

 

[RussellWilson]

Well done for overlooking the post where I explained that I didn’t think it was a choice. But like we have seen throughout this entire thread you boys can’t really debate and hence seize on any wording or phrasing error to pretend your points are valid.

Agree this thread is a mess. Loads of insults being thrown around by the atheists/non religious with largely a debate venturing around when not if it should be taught.

The same group of people will throw around phrases "mythical beard skyman" and "doomed for hell" every other post like it adds anything to the discussion. Go do some reading on theology and at least come back with some informed put downs for religion. Like religious parents spend all day going "Timmy don't do that you'll go to hell!".

I do find it weird how much it concerns the non religious what each religion says is a sin or not, if it's all just made up nonsense.

 

[Prometheus]

The harm is that let’s just take the cross dress and trans example.

A kid who engages in some cross dressing at age 4 does it out of a sense of curiousity and fun, or his parents think it would be cute if he dresses as a girl. They think nothing more of it.

Now suddenly at school he’s told that if he wants to cross dress on a more regular basis it’s totally cool and if he wants to become a girl permanently he can go ahead and do it. He has no idea of the medical consequences of undergoing this process and relationships wise how this will impact him long term.

So something which was just a bit of fun might now become a permanent obsession in his head. He is then trapped into a lifetime of hormone replacement, relationship issues (reduced pool of partners to pick from). So morally nothing wrong has happen but from a practical perspective you have altered his life and not necessarily for the better because you’ve made it harder.

Again not necessarily anything wrong with that but if you had waited till he’s abit older and he’s grown out of that phase and his parents probably wouldn’t cross dress him as he gets older.. when he’s given lessons on transgender he’s able to gain awareness of how to treat transgender and he feels secure in his own identity by then but can accept that others might not. Either way he’s in a more stable state of mind to process this info by virtue of being abit older.

On the flip side if he had throughout his childhood been feeling trapped in his body - the fact he’s had years of feeling trapped means he is a lot more sure that he is a girl in a boys body so when he does receive those lessons - he’s in a much secure position to make that leap of faith and change his identity because he’s confident his decision is the right one and he’s mature enough to make that call.

Is there any basis for this scenario you've constructed? Is your view that a situation could transpire like that based on any type of research/case studies or a specific knowledge you've of human psychology?

 

[Eyepopper]

Well done for overlooking the post where I explained that I didn’t think it was a choice. But like we have seen throughout this entire thread you boys can’t really debate and hence seize on any wording or phrasing error to pretend your points are valid.

Shouldn't any debate be rooted on evidence?

For example do you have any evidence to support..

the decision to be gay or transgender etc is an instinct

The simple fact that you say this is a 'decision' suggests the idea of choice.

 

[Wibble]

I don't know how my life would've been if I'd been told I had the ability to transition when I was a five year old who hated people calling me a boy. But I definitely feel robbed of that option.

Exactly. Informing all kids isn't going to make binary kuds turn gay or transexual. The very idea is ludicrous and based on irrational fear of anything other than hetrosexuality being considered normal/moral. Even if people think it isn't in their case.

 

[syrian_scholes]

Sorry but some of you are being massive arseholes in here. There's clearly a grey area discussion, a genuinely interesting one, to be had here yet you're reducing it to petty insults and simplistic arguments.

Yeah I'm also not feeling comfortable posting in the generals on the caf anymore, anything you say and you might get piled on with a bunch of insults from condescending people thinking they are smarter than anyone, like why would you tell me being gay is okay? I already know that you condescending feck.

 

[Eyepopper]

why would you tell me being gay is okay? I already know that you condescending feck.

So why would you have any issue telling a 5 or 6 year old that sometimes men love other men, and that thats okay?

I've told my 3 year old, even leaving out the 'that's okay' bit, and he's fine with it.

 

[syrian_scholes]

So why would you have any issue telling a 5 or 6 year old that sometimes men love other men, and that okay?

I didn't say anything about that, I have absolutely no opinion on the matter, I'm sensing a condescending theme towards some people in this thread and changing their words into some vile shit to prove a point.

 

[Eyepopper]

I didn't say anything about that, I have absolutely no opinion on the matter, I'm sensing a condescending theme towards some people in this thread and changing their words into some vile shit to prove a point.

Well suggesting we shouldn't educate kids about relationships because we might "brainwash them into choosing to be gay or transexual" is some pretty vile shit, would you disagree?

 

[esmufc07]

I didn't say anything about that, I have absolutely no opinion on the matter, I'm sensing a condescending theme towards some people in this thread and changing their words into some vile shit to prove a point.

you seem quite angry

 

[Grinner]

I didn't say anything about that, I have absolutely no opinion on the matter, I'm sensing a condescending theme towards some people in this thread and changing their words into some vile shit to prove a point.

Words are all there is to go on in this thread so people need to choose them carefully and not moan when they don't and they get called out on that.

 

[syrian_scholes]

you seem quite angry

I'm not, why would I be? Actually I'm quite interested in this experience in the UK and I'd like to see the results, it'll probably turn out fine and hopefully helpful.

Well suggesting we shouldn't educate kids about relationships because we might "brainwash them into choosing to be gay or transexual" is some pretty vile shit, would you disagree?

I don't think @Raees meant it like that, I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt rather than jump into conclusions, on the other hand you assuming that I have an issue with it is condescending, and it's probably because I'm a Muslim, and that for me is an issue.

 

[Raees]

Is there any basis for this scenario you've constructed? Is your view that a situation could transpire like that based on any type of research/case studies or a specific knowledge you've of human psychology?

https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/440851/can-you-really-know-that-a-3-year-old-is-transgender
https://www.parents.com/parenting/my-transgender-child-this-is-how-i-know/

Some really interesting stories here from a range of parents. For the most part, it seems even young kids have a strong identity in terms of knowing they are in the wrong body and in those cases, it seems the parents tried to make sure that it isn't just a phase and then naturally they come to the conclusion that yep this kid is transgender and there is no two ways about it.

But as some of the other stories and doctors mention, there are many cases where it was just a phase and the kids go back to their birth gender and de-transition but the doctors say there could be long-term psychological effects with them having attempted to socially transition in the first place so not every story has an happy ending. Point being it is a sensitive issue and some kids can get confused into think they are transgender when they are not whereas with some kids even aged 3 they can pretty much be nailed on as transgender.

@Eyepopper the decision aspect is to do with declaring your sexuality. Obviously if you don't declare it, not everyone around you is going to know as by default they will probably assume you're hetro. Obviously within yourself there is no 'decision' to be made, you are what you are regardless if it was a phase or not. I am totally against anyone who thinks being gay is a 'choice' and you can just convert them into being hetro - I find that abhorrent and evil.

The thing I find hilarious about this thread if that if you all stopped being hysterical and misinterpreting my arguments, you'd find we have tonnes of common ground in terms of promotion of LGBT awareness - literally the only issue of debate here is the age at which kids should be taught these things and how age appropriate the content should be for certain ages.

 

[syrian_scholes]

Words are all there is to go on in this thread so people need to choose them carefully and not moan when they don't and they get called out on that.

I think that calling people homophobes while they specifically said multiple times that they only have an issue that the content might be too heavy for a 6 year old is insane, I thought that people wouldn't jump into judgement like that.

 

[Wibble]

Yeah I'm also not feeling comfortable posting in the generals on the caf anymore, anything you say and you might get piled on with a bunch of insults from condescending people thinking they are smarter than anyone, like why would you tell me being gay is okay? I already know that you condescending feck.

Trying to hide such things from kids seems to suggest that people have an issue with it. Even if they think they don't.

And this seems like a very gentle and polite discussion to me.