If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?

Hisha

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I read, not sure what I missed. You said the team has bunch of fighters but all I see is bunch of cnuts who shits on their club and managers when things don't go their way. I see that team and don't think we will be anywhere near 4th with that team, forget 'might' challenge for title. If we are relegated then it might challenge for title.
I think i mentioned about replacing Fred, who i believe is not a Jose signing, and also a backup for Matic to solve the midfield. And i also mentioned that the team is not a perfect team, but can do a job for 2-3 seasons or until better alternatives are available.

Apart from this, i know that you hate Jose to the core and there is no point in reasoning with you if . Also, i don't have much time to spend here. So, let's just agree to disagree and move on.
 

roonster09

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I think i mentioned about replacing Fred, who i believe is not a Jose signing, and also a backup for Matic to solve the midfield. And i also mentioned that the team is not a perfect team, but can do a job for 2-3 seasons or until better alternatives are available.

Apart from this, i know that you hate Jose to the core and there is no point in reasoning with you if . Also, i don't have much time to spend here. So, let's just agree to disagree and move on.
Yeah whatever doesn't work is not Jose's signing. I know you are Jose fan and it was wrong to expect anything logical from your end.
 

Hisha

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I'm a simple man, I don't read minds like you may do. I've seen Jose play Young a lot, give him the armband, big him up whenever he could. Based on that, I think he would be one of the last players he'd ever have replaced.
Imo, giving armband to Young meant that there were no better alternatives available for the Captain post in that team. And a Captain may not be the best player in that team, but a Captain needs a lot other qualities apart from being a good player. Jose always had big personalities in his team and looking at his United team, may be he found Young as the best out of the lot for the armband. Also, if i am not wrong, he started to big up Young after Zlatan was gone which really tells something. He wanted someone to control the team on the pitch and in the dressing room.
 

kouroux

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Imo, giving armband to Young meant that there were no better alternatives available for the Captain post in that team. And a Captain may not be the best player in that team, but a Captain needs a lot other qualities apart from being a good player. Jose always had big personalities in his team and looking at his United team, may be he found Young as the best out of the lot for the armband. Also, if i am not wrong, he started to big up Young after Zlatan was gone which really tells something. He wanted someone to control the team on the pitch and in the dressing room.
It just all means he valued him to a high degre. In a hypothetical scenario where Jose was given funds to buy players, Young would be one of the last players he'd look to upgrade on IMHO.
 

Hisha

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Yeah whatever doesn't work is not Jose's signing. I know you are Jose fan and it was wrong to expect anything logical from your end.
As of me, i like Jose but i am not a die hard fan. I like a lot of things in his personality and the way he sets up his teams. I find him as one of the best tactician in the game. Also, personally, i always prefer underdogs and Jose, imo, always won with underdogs. Being a management professional, i like the way he manage his players and his superiors. He wants success at any cost and if he finds someone who is not good for that, he either wants them to improve or wants to throw them out. Also, he knowingly paints himself bad in front of the media and the fans to protect his team and to improve his team.

So, yes, i like Jose cause of his personality and his tactics. But i am not a die hard fan. Also, i refuse to believe that he is a defensive coach. He sets his tactics based on the team he has in hand. You give him a 2010-2012 real Madrid team and his teams will break goal scoring records. You give him a 2004-2007 Chelsea team and his teams will be very hard to break down and will break records in some other way.

In simple words, you give him what he wants, and there is high chance of him delivering the result.
 

Hisha

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It just all means he valued him to a high degre. In a hypothetical scenario where Jose was given funds to buy players, Young would be one of the last players he'd look to upgrade on IMHO.
The way i see it, United lacked leaders in the dressing room and on the pitch, which is 100% true. He was hoping Pogba to take up that role once Zlatan was injured and gone, but Pogba proved to be an headache for him. So, he turned his attention to someone who he can trust with his mentality. It's not like Jose immediately made Young the captain as soon as he took over the team, right?
 

kouroux

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The way i see it, United lacked leaders in the dressing room and on the pitch, which is 100% true. He was hoping Pogba to take up that role once Zlatan was injured and gone, but Pogba proved to be an headache for him. So, he turned his attention to someone who he can trust with his mentality. It's not like Jose immediately made Young the captain as soon as he took over the team, right?
It doesn't matter what he didn't do when he arrived, in this scenario, Young would still be his captain and a player he valued a lot. Jose is many things but once he loves a player, he is very loyal to him and plays him a lot even if said player shouldn't start games anymore (Ivanovic at Chelsea is a good example of a finished player who still played a lot under him even after they paid a lot of money for Felipe Luis)
 

Hisha

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It doesn't matter what he didn't do when he arrived, in this scenario, Young would still be his captain and a player he valued a lot. Jose is many things but once he loves a player, he is very loyal to him and plays him a lot even if said player shouldn't start games anymore.
No, it matters what he did when he arrived. He continuously changed his captains to see how they lead the team on and off the pitch. And he was disappointed with most of them. Then only he turned to Young even though Young was always there in that team, which means that he didn't value Young as a good player, but he had to choose him as the captain because of the lack of alternatives.

And i agree with you, Jose values loyalty and commitment a lot.
 

kouroux

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No, it matters what he did when he arrived. He continuously changed his captains to see how they lead the team on and off the pitch. And he was disappointed with most of them. Then only he turned to Young even though Young was always there in that team, which means that he didn't value Young as a good player, but he had to choose him as the captain because of the lack of alternatives.

And i agree with you, Jose values loyalty and commitment a lot.
He didn't value him at the beginning but he did towards the ends, which is the most important thing in this scenario. He valued him in May 2018 when he said he would play 50 games for him, if the club had given him lots of money during that key summer, Young would still be at the club and be important for him.
It ain't just about being the captain, it's about being an undisputed starter. Mourinho was already giving hints to that effect before the summer window in which he didn't spend as much as money he wanted. Do you honestly think he would have benched him for the season if he'd managed to bring more players ?
I highly doubt it.
 

roonster09

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As of me, i like Jose but i am not a die hard fan. I like a lot of things in his personality and the way he sets up his teams. I find him as one of the best tactician in the game. Also, personally, i always prefer underdogs and Jose, imo, always won with underdogs. Being a management professional, i like the way he manage his players and his superiors. He wants success at any cost and if he finds someone who is not good for that, he either wants them to improve or wants to throw them out. Also, he knowingly paints himself bad in front of the media and the fans to protect his team and to improve his team.

So, yes, i like Jose cause of his personality and his tactics. But i am not a die hard fan. Also, i refuse to believe that he is a defensive coach. He sets his tactics based on the team he has in hand. You give him a 2010-2012 real Madrid team and his teams will break goal scoring records. You give him a 2004-2007 Chelsea team and his teams will be very hard to break down and will break records in some other way.

In simple words, you give him what he wants, and there is high chance of him delivering the result.
I have nothing to add when you like the way he treats his players, superiors and also when you believe he protects his team from media. He couldn't even protect young lads on tour.
 

SteveJ

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Hisha said:
Also, he knowingly paints himself bad in front of the media and the fans to protect his team and to improve his team.
That's hilariously naive.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Why is this still a discussion? World class manager but just not for us. The guy would be more suitable at PSG or City or Real or the old version Chelsea or may be Bayern (they got power to sign all bundes Liga best players) where he will be given a lot of money to spend.

Look at his signings so far have been disaster & not considered as rebuilding process because now we are looking for to get rid most of them.
 

JPRouve

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Mourinho isn't suited for PSG at all, his boss would be on his back all the time like they have been with all managers, they do what they want and you better not open your mouth. And they don't want negative press.
 

roonster09

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I'm not buying Jose wasn't fully aware of the Fred interest. He signed off on this transfer..
I remember him saying that all sides need a Brazilian in the squad. Admittedly there was a link to Willian.

https://strettynews.com/2018/06/10/shakhtar-donetsk-ceo-explains-how-fred-joined-man-utd/
IIRC Duncan Castles who was Jose's and Mendes mouthpiece also reported that Jose wanted Fred and this was when City were favorites to sign him in Jan 2018.
 

Amir

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problem is, you’re seeing something that is half built due to Ed’s incompetence to fully back our manager. If you look at Jose’s teams of past that was built with proper backing, they have all been great!
Not in season 3, they weren't...

I'm not saying I needed to see something complete in season 2. But I think that at this stage you should see a team with a certain style and say 'yeah, I can see how with three better players in certain positions the team will be great'. We weren't there.
 

Amir

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I can see nobody challenging city 100pts. But 81 is still better than 41 pts we're coursing to
Well, Liverpool are doing it...

81 looks better and better right now. But the target was to challenge and we weren't going to challenge with Jose.
 

JPRouve

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Off course, but the logic is that if you sack the one with 81 points for not being good enough, then you need to sack the 41 pts for doing much worse.
But he wasn't sacked for not being good enough with 81 points. He was sacked because he gave up on the team, allegedly alienated people behind the scene and the team was on free fall in 2018/2019. Mourinho got sacked due to the July to December period.
 

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But he wasn't sacked for not being good enough with 81 points. He was sacked because he gave up on the team, allegedly alienated people behind the scene and the team was on free fall in 2018/2019. Mourinho got sacked due to the July to December period.
The way I see it, he has the guts to stand up against Pogba and demand that Manager way, or the highway. Is he wrong to want Martial to track back? Is he wrong to tell Pogba to cut his sidestepping? Do we see both of them flourished post Jose and proven the world he's wrong? Nope.

We choose our side with pogba, does it make him appreciative of our effort? Nope. He continue to want out and appear half arsed

SAF went to United, got 2nd with us, then dismantle the old guards because he know it's unsustainable. Jose is the only manager in the last 6 years that actually dares to complain openly player performances.
 

roonster09

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The way I see it, he has the guts to stand up against Pogba and demand that Manager way, or the highway.
Highway being downing tools?

The way everyone sees it, Jose was acting like a kid for not getting couple of players, so he was setting the standards, if you don't get what you want then act like a cnut with rotten attitude. We had such a great leader.
 

JPRouve

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The way I see it, he has the guts to stand up against Pogba and demand that Manager way, or the highway. Is he wrong to want Martial to track back? Is he wrong to tell Pogba to cut his sidestepping? Do we see both of them flourished post Jose and proven the world he's wrong? Nope.

We choose our side with pogba, does it make him appreciative of our effort? Nope. He continue to want out and appear half arsed

SAF went to United, got 2nd with us, then dismantle the old guards because he know it's unsustainable. Jose is the only manager in the last 6 years that actually dares to complain openly player performances.
And the problem is that I don't know why he would have to stand against Pogba, what has Pogba done that would warrant that or be a topic in this thread. I also don't really know why you bring Martial into it and he did track back.

And those are two players out of more than 25, the rest weren't particularly good either individually or collectively while Pogba was by far our best player until his injury.
 

Sky1981

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Highway being downing tools?

The way everyone sees it, Jose was acting like a kid for not getting couple of players, so he was setting the standards, if you don't get what you want then act like a cnut with rotten attitude. We had such a great leader.
so, he should just smile and say everything is rosy like ole?

I'm done with Jose, he's sacked, and you either love him, or you don't
 

roonster09

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so, he should just smile and say everything is rosy like ole?

I'm done with Jose, he's sacked, and you either love him, or you don't
No, he don't have to. There is lot of middle ground between how he acted and what Ole said. Every manager miss their transfers, they won't get 100% of their targets. Most managers makes the best use of what they have, Jose decided to take the quick money by doing everything he did to get sacked. For a such a "winner" the way he acted and threw away season was just pathetic.
 

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IIRC Duncan Castles who was Jose's and Mendes mouthpiece also reported that Jose wanted Fred and this was when City were favorites to sign him in Jan 2018.
Yeah I remember that, Jose trying to save face over his transfers who look like flops.

It's going to do Freds confidence no good whatsoever reading this though, I just hope he uses it as motivation to show why we signed him.
 

roonster09

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And the problem is that I don't know why he would have to stand against Pogba, what has Pogba done that would warrant that or be a topic in this thread. I also don't really know why you bring Martial into it and he did track back.

And those are two players out of more than 25, the rest weren't particularly good either individually or collectively while Pogba was by far our best player until his injury.
Also if Jose's problem was with Pogba alone then you can at least blame the player. In last 9 years, Jose lost Madrid dressing room falling out with players like Casillas, Marcelo, Ramos, Ronaldo. Fell out with Chelsea dressing room with players like Hazard, Costa, Fabregas and then lost ManUtd dressing room with players like Martial, Pogba targeted.

Players like Ronaldo never had problems with any manager except Jose, same with players like Pogba and maybe Ramos, Marcelo too. Jose losing dressing room is not something uncommon. It happened at every club except Inter and Porto.
 

roonster09

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Yeah I remember that, Jose trying to save face over his transfers who look like flops.

It's going to do Freds confidence no good whatsoever reading this though, I just hope he uses it as motivation to show why we signed him.
Going by what we have seen, he should do complete 180 degree change to convince any manager. Hopefully he will come good as we have spent shit loads on him.
 

Amir

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Off course, but the logic is that if you sack the one with 81 points for not being good enough, then you need to sack the 41 pts for doing much worse.
Oh, there's no question about that. I think Jose did a crap job and was rightly sacked and Ole should be as well. We got the Mourinho sacking right, we didn't get the replacing part right.
 

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Also if Jose's problem was with Pogba alone then you can at least blame the player. In last 9 years, Jose lost Madrid dressing room falling out with players like Casillas, Marcelo, Ramos, Ronaldo. Fell out with Chelsea dressing room with players like Hazard, Costa, Fabregas and then lost ManUtd dressing room with players like Martial, Pogba targeted.

Players like Ronaldo never had problems with any manager except Jose, same with players like Pogba and maybe Ramos, Marcelo too. Jose losing dressing room is not something uncommon. It happened at every club except Inter and Porto.
Look, I don't even understand how it was a relevant answer. Are we pretending that our bad results were caused by Pogba and Martial? Why these two and not Matic, Lingard, Rashford, Lukaku, De Gea or Young who were all pretty bad during the first part of the 2018/2019 season?
 

Hisha

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I have nothing to add when you like the way he treats his players, superiors and also when you believe he protects his team from media. He couldn't even protect young lads on tour.
And that's the part which you don't understand about him, or you rather don't want to understand. Jose been in management very long and so he managed a lot of players. Yes, he puts players, mostly youngsters, in tight spot; he blames them when he knows that they are not performing to their potential. He is not on a baby sitting duty to protect the young lads. He is there to make them fulfill their true potential and to make them play for the team rather than playing for themselves. And there are many examples of his players accepting that his treatments made them stronger mentally and also helped them to fulfill their potential as a player. His treatment of his team, whether praising them or criticizing them, made them to play as a team rather than playing as individuals.

He managed a lot of players and how many players openly criticized him on his management style? How many you can produce? I am not saying that he didn't made any mistake or he was not wrong about certain players. But if you look at the average, his treatment reaped the reward and many players admit it. And the very small percentage of players who had problems with Jose are either mentally weak or are players with huge ego who doesn't like others criticizing them or telling them on how to play. Also, his approach and his demands may not work with players certain attitudes, like Pogba, who believes that they are superstars and who has a lot other commercial priorities other than performing on the pitch. And which top manager didn't fell out with some of his players through out his career?

You hate him, fine. But still you can be rational, i think. I like him, but i never blindly supported him. There are many instants when i criticized his approach to certain matches or on certain things throughout his career.
 

tomaldinho1

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The Fred story is textbook revisionism. Mou wanted him, I don't see how anyone doubts this.

There's a lot of speculation about Woodward's involvement in transfers. But even if you believe Woodward has almost total control, Fred is such a random signing - doesn't have a brand, relatively unknown league, pretty unknown player and then £50m+ signing.... only the manager could have forced that one through.
 

roonster09

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And that's the part which you don't understand about him, or you rather don't want to understand. Jose been in management very long and so he managed a lot of players. Yes, he puts players, mostly youngsters, in tight spot; he blames them when he knows that they are not performing to their potential. He is not on a baby sitting duty to protect the young lads. He is there to make them fulfill their true potential and to make them play for the team rather than playing for themselves. And there are many examples of his players accepting that his treatments made them stronger mentally and also helped them to fulfill their potential as a player. His treatment of his team, whether praising them or criticizing them, made them to play as a team rather than playing as individuals.

He managed a lot of players and how many players openly criticized him on his management style? How many you can produce? I am not saying that he didn't made any mistake or he was not wrong about certain players. But if you look at the average, his treatment reaped the reward and many players admit it. And the very small percentage of players who had problems with Jose are either mentally weak or are players with huge ego who doesn't like others criticizing them or telling them on how to play. Also, his approach and his demands may not work with players certain attitudes, like Pogba, who believes that they are superstars and who has a lot other commercial priorities other than performing on the pitch. And which top manager didn't fell out with some of his players through out his career?

You hate him, fine. But still you can be rational, i think. I like him, but i never blindly supported him. There are many instants when i criticized his approach to certain matches or on certain things throughout his career.
Reading your posts it's obvious you haven't followed his career at all. You are just building narrative to suit your agenda.

Repeating "you hate him" all the time won't help your arguments. Anyone who followed Jose's career knows he was a changed man after Madrid. And when I said youngsters I'm not talking about players like Rashford, Martial. I'm talking about youth players he took to tour because of World cup and then treated them like piece of shit.

You have blind love for him, that's why you don't see any problems with him. Just like you said, at least try to be rational and no you blindly support him which is obvious from your posts. If you are using instants where you criticized Jose as something to back up you are not biased then you can check my posts on Jose till 2017-18 and you will see me defending him all the time. So going by your logic, not sure how I'm not rational but you are.

Regarding bold part, google Jose and Chelsea fallout first term, Jose and Madrid fall out when he even stopped talking to players and players complaining about Jose.
 

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Look, I don't even understand how it was a relevant answer. Are we pretending that our bad results were caused by Pogba and Martial? Why these two and not Matic, Lingard, Rashford, Lukaku, De Gea or Young who were all pretty bad during the first part of the 2018/2019 season?
I will never understand that logic too. Also Marital wasn't even regular starter, so all his failures are blamed on Pogba when he was just 1 player in 20+ outfield players.
 

kouroux

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Mourinho is being portrayed like an unsung hero who sacrificied his reputation for the good of the team now.
Time does embelish certain things but in this case, it's OTT :lol:.
Just because it was the right decision, doesn't those who approved it are 100% happy with the current situation. It is impossible to debate with people who see things in a binary fashion
 

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The irony is the shifting of opinions form time to time. Back in the day the squad was great and Mourinho was holding them back. We should be challenging for the league with these players and we should be playing better football etc. Now the squad is crap thanks to Mourinho wasting loads of money and fecking up the squad and he's one of the reasons for our current mess.

People need to make their mind. Either the squad was crap but overachieving or it was good enough to challenge but needed a new manager to "free" them?
Alternatively, either Mourinho couldn't get the best out of good players or he spent 400m on poor players. It doesn't look good for him either way.
 

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Alternatively, either Mourinho couldn't get the best out of good players or he spent 400m on poor players. It doesn't look good for him either way.
I'm talking about pinions being said here. When he was the manager the opinion here was the squad was good enough and 2nd is unacceptable so we needed a manager to free them. Now he is the reason for the current mess we have because he built a crap squad. People need to make their mind.
 

Siorac

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As of me, i like Jose but i am not a die hard fan. I like a lot of things in his personality and the way he sets up his teams. I find him as one of the best tactician in the game. Also, personally, i always prefer underdogs and Jose, imo, always won with underdogs. Being a management professional, i like the way he manage his players and his superiors. He wants success at any cost and if he finds someone who is not good for that, he either wants them to improve or wants to throw them out. Also, he knowingly paints himself bad in front of the media and the fans to protect his team and to improve his team.

So, yes, i like Jose cause of his personality and his tactics. But i am not a die hard fan. Also, i refuse to believe that he is a defensive coach. He sets his tactics based on the team he has in hand. You give him a 2010-2012 real Madrid team and his teams will break goal scoring records. You give him a 2004-2007 Chelsea team and his teams will be very hard to break down and will break records in some other way.

In simple words, you give him what he wants, and there is high chance of him delivering the result.
:lol:

Come on now. Porto, sure. Winning the CL with them was massive.

Chelsea were bankrolled to an unprecedented extent by a billionaire, at a time when Manchester United were experimenting with signing shite players for some reason while Arsenal were at the end of their greatest generation. Very far from an underdog situation.

Inter were runaway champions in Italy when he took them over, thanks to Calciopoli. They were the only serious club in Serie A at the time. They were underdogs compared to Barcelona but that's about it.

Real Madrid are not underdogs, ever. They had a fabulously expensive, world-class team, crowned by Cristiano fecking Ronaldo. That's not an underdog.

His last league title, with Chelsea? Their main rival for it was Tottenham. Safe to say that it's not the underdog who won that race.
 

el3mel

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The Fred story is textbook revisionism. Mou wanted him, I don't see how anyone doubts this.

There's a lot of speculation about Woodward's involvement in transfers. But even if you believe Woodward has almost total control, Fred is such a random signing - doesn't have a brand, relatively unknown league, pretty unknown player and then £50m+ signing.... only the manager could have forced that one through.
He wasn't a random player though. City were interested in him before. I think this point has been mentioned several times for the reason we bought him. Scouting probably suggested him and Woodward though it would be good getting one over City. It is the most logical thing because Mourinho literally dropped him after the second or third game he started and barely played him since then while he was trusting his own "players" as Matic and Lukaku. If he was Mourinho's choice he wouldn't have been dropped for Fellaini very early like that,as he's known to have big patience for his choices.