If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?

[HowYouDoin]

Watch him come back Zidane style if this shit continues!

Naaaah. Remember Rooney saying that top down Mourinho made everyone miserable? Even the kitchen staff felt it apparently and everyone was relieved when he was gone.

Despite that he was spot on on soccer related issues, you can't just turn a blind eye on his toxic personality. He had to be let go. True you can argue that he wasn't backed but didn't the same thing happen to Pochettino and he still made the CL finals instead of sulking up and bringing everyone down? Mourinho has a toxic personality and he falls out with everyone everywhere he goes. That can't just be ignored.

With that said, is he a world class manager unlike Solskajer? Yes. Was he right in identifying the problems and evaluating players? Yes. He was right about everything. He just wasn't the right person to change things. Comparing Solskajer who probably isnt Premier League caliber to Mourinho, one of the greatest of all time is a joke but Mourinho's baggage ultimately is what cost him the job.

 

[JPRouve]

Almost never actually. Only in 15/16 and in 2011 before that. Before that... I'm not even sure, 2001 I think.

93, 97, 98, 99, 01, 11 and 16. Basically when the league was very competitive and that one season when everyone was bad.

 

[Johan07]

As of me, i like Jose but i am not a die hard fan. I like a lot of things in his personality and the way he sets up his teams. I find him as one of the best tactician in the game. Also, personally, i always prefer underdogs and Jose, imo, always won with underdogs. Being a management professional, i like the way he manage his players and his superiors. He wants success at any cost and if he finds someone who is not good for that, he either wants them to improve or wants to throw them out. Also, he knowingly paints himself bad in front of the media and the fans to protect his team and to improve his team.

So, yes, i like Jose cause of his personality and his tactics. But i am not a die hard fan. Also, i refuse to believe that he is a defensive coach. He sets his tactics based on the team he has in hand. You give him a 2010-2012 real Madrid team and his teams will break goal scoring records. You give him a 2004-2007 Chelsea team and his teams will be very hard to break down and will break records in some other way.

In simple words, you give him what he wants, and there is high chance of him delivering the result.

His Real team was never an "offensive" team. It was probably the greatest counterattacking team ever and a symbol of how a Mourinho-team can work with the right players until he fecks it up for himself.
But offensive? Naw, never. They scored an early goal and then countered the feck out of even low-level Spanish teams.
You can score a lot of goals by playing very defensive football if you have the players and its executed correcltly. Mourinho is the epitomy of that.

 

[Johan07]

I don't get the quotes people are posting. Of course he's going to say for the official website or in press that it wasn't his buy?

That was the same summer Woodward decided to veto Mourinho a defender signing because he thought the options available aren't better than what we have and/or overpriced, what will prevent him from getting into the incoming players as well?

What are those half of the players he bought and fell with? That was Pogba. He didn't fell with anyone either. Just because he sold them or benched some it means he fell out with them.

Again, no one is saying his signings were all big success, or terrible signings were forced on him. We are talking about specific case which is Fred. How can anyone look at Fred and think that's a Mourinho box to box type of midfielder? He's as far away from it as you can get. Why would he go on and sign a player that doesn't suit his ideas of midfielders then drop him after third game? Makes zero sense. The more logical thing is it was a scout suggestion and he said "OK" for it, then didn't like what he's offering and dropped him. No way I can believe a Mourinho scouted this guy and thought he suits his ideas of a box to box midfielder.

A more relevant question is why should anyone else. The shirt-sale conspiracy theory does not really fly with Fred, does it? So if its not Woodward trying to sell shirts; now its on our scouting system instead?
I dont mistrust him when he says it was Fred or nothing. It was probably what happened since our top targets were not available and/or did not want to come. That happens to all managers. Some managers; like at Liverpool or City chooses to wait a window or two for a Van Dijk or Mahrez instead. Not Mourinho though.

 

[JPRouve]

His Real team was never an "offensive" team. It was probably the greatest counterattacking team ever and a symbol of how a Mourinho-team can work with the right players until he fecks it up for himself.
But offensive? Naw, never. They scored an early goal and then countered the feck out of even low-level Spanish teams.
You can score a lot of goals by playing very defensive football if you have the players and its executed correcltly. Mourinho is the epitomy of that.

And it was great to watch, any team not named Bayern or Barcelona were guaranteed to be schooled because they would definitely make mistakes.

 

[Siorac]

Selling Lukaku, Sanchez, Smalling and letting Herrera go was Mourinho?

Two of those doing quite poorly here is on Mourinho, yes, and Maguire is supposedly an upgrade on Smalling so letting him go didn't weaken the squad.

 

[el3mel]

Not really. Mourinho's typical 4-2-3-1 setup with double pivot requires both the CMs to have more defensive duties than offensive to cover for the defense while giving the number 10 the main attacking role of the midfield - agree, we set up on the counter under him so this is logical. Fred played in this system so also logical he'd be bought to play in the same position.

Fred doesn't suit that role per se and it's obvious his game is more offensive and pressing up front than playing deep and having more defensive duties - Pure hindsight. Look at every single Fred article pre United. B2B midfielder, DM, Holding midfielder. Role model? Fernandinho. Dunga apparently had a big influence on him as a mentor. He scored some goals and developed a reputation for being able to carry the ball forward but he was always deployed in a defensive role.

We all know this about Fred before signing him and you yourself mentioned his qualities as good passing range etc but not being able to protect the defense in a double pivot system when? I said he played well in the double pivot system for Shakhtar. Please don't make things up to suit your narrative.

That's why Mourinho dropped him quickly because he didn't provide the protection he wanted for the defense in his pivot system and opted for Fellaini instead for his aerial and defensive abilities - he was dropped for that reason but that's the whole point, Mou was buying a player he thought would be good enough in that role and was mistaken. Without the hindsight it actually makes perfect sense why Mourinho wanted him and why he signed him because on paper here was a dynamic player who had proved he could play in the double pivot but also be integral to bringing the ball out and building attacks.

I see zero reason why anyone would believe he's not Mou's signing

Playing well in double pivot in Ukraine honestly means feck all because it is far less intense than Premier League and no way Mourinho or even any other manager wouldn't have thought of that, plus, just because they play double pivot it doesn't means they play exactly the same tactical set up as Mourinho's. They might have been playing him in double pivot with more attacking duties while keeping a DMF at the back in a more attacking approach, while Mourinho prefers 2 deep lying CM with more defensive duties and giving the attacking duty to his number 10. Really not a hard point to grasp.

The guy was never suited to play as a deep CM in front of the defense due to him being careless in front of defense and now way Mourinho would have scouted him and didn't notice that. You are swallowed into your opinion that you simply refuse to accept this is basic stuff any manager scouting a player to add to his specific system would have noticed, not getting shocked by it in his first 3 games.

I had zero reason why anyone would look at Fred and say "yeah this guy is a Mourinho's typical double pivot CM". You aren't offering any decent evidence on your points. "got mistaken", "hindsight", "looked on paper","articles on the player" . Too much guessing without looking to what happened on the pitch.

 

[Escobar]

We should have never appointed Jose, so talking about giving him more time is ludicrous

 

[DoomSlayer]

We should have never appointed Jose, so talking about giving him more time is ludicrous

I don't even understand why this is discussed anymore. We should focus on the problems at the moment, like fecking Woodward and the Glazers!

 

[thepolice123]

Scott seems like a big fan of Jose.

 

[Hamza Aouir]

100% Jose wanted a new CB, the likes of Maguire and Diop where the main targets, if the board gave him what he wanted when he wanted it then we could of got Maguire for cheap (Around £60m) but we waited a year become more desperate and got him for £85m,
Reposts came out that Jose had a choice between Fred or no one, he opted for Fred over no one as anyone would but Fred turned out to be... well you know
Jose also wanted Perišić but the board that have no football knowledge went against him and said no,
I'm sure Jose would of wanted a new RB as well as we all knew Young isn't good for that place,

If Jose had the chance to buy the players he wanted then we would of been looking at a different scenario,

I don't know what you guys think but how I see it Ole isn't a step forward from Jose its actually a step back if not 3,

 

[Andersonson]

Two of those doing quite poorly here is on Mourinho, yes, and Maguire is supposedly an upgrade on Smalling so letting him go didn't weaken the squad.

And players are doing better now under Ole? Smalling leaving did weaken the squad, but not the first 11. And selling Lukaku was a huge mistake.

The state of the squad is far worse off and the worst part is the new manager. He is an absolute downgrade. The football we are getting now is worse than Mou's even

 

[Hamza Aouir]

And players are doing better now under Ole? Smalling leaving did weaken the squad, but not the first 11. And selling Lukaku was a huge mistake.

The state of the squad is far worse off and the worst part is the new manager. He is an absolute downgrade. The football we are getting now is worse than Mou's even

Selling Lukaku was not a mistake not replacing Lukaku was the mistake we need to differentiate between the two

 

[Lentwood]

Sure. I'll also add context.

Place / Pts / Pts behind 1st / CL exit / Manager
7th / 64 / -22 / QF / Moyes
4th / 70 / -17 / -- / LVG
5th / 66 / -16 / Group / LVG
6th / 69 / -17 / -- / Jose
2nd / 81 / -19 / R16 / Jose
6th / -- / -19 / -- / Jose (before sacking)

As you can see Jose never challenged for the title even though he was second and he was dumped out in the round of 16 by mighty Sevilla.

Always happy to add context. Cheers.

So by your logic then you don’t judge a teams achievement based on their league position, you compare them to the team who wins the league

So beating every team in the league at least once and finishing 2nd with a very mediocre side is not a good achievement because one team got loads of points

 

[tomaldinho1]

Playing well in double pivot in Ukraine honestly means feck all because it is far less intense than Premier League and no way Mourinho or even any other manager wouldn't have thought of that, plus, just because they play double pivot it doesn't means they play exactly the same tactical set up as Mourinho's. They might have been playing him in double pivot with more attacking duties while keeping a DMF at the back in a more attacking approach, while Mourinho prefers 2 deep lying CM with more defensive duties and giving the attacking duty to his number 10. Really not a hard point to grasp.

The guy was never suited to play as a deep CM in front of the defense due to him being careless in front of defense and now way Mourinho would have scouted him and didn't notice that. You are swallowed into your opinion that you simply refuse to accept this is basic stuff any manager scouting a player to add to his specific system would have noticed, not getting shocked by it in his first 3 games.

I had zero reason why anyone would look at Fred and say "yeah this guy is a Mourinho's typical double pivot CM". You aren't offering any decent evidence on your points. "got mistaken", "hindsight", "looked on paper","articles on the player" . Too much guessing without looking to what happened on the pitch.

You're just repeating yourself.

Google 'fred + Shakhtar' and look at results from before we signed him - you're impression of him as an attacking player is completely at odds with my point of view and pretty much every sports journalist out there. He would have fitted the profile of CM Mou was after very well.

He was trained as a holding midfielder and his reputation in Europe was the same, he was also trained in this position in Brasil after converting from being a defender, he was signed as a replacement for Fernandinho and his name really started gathering heat when he played well in that role against City in the CL. Just because he has turned out poorly for us doesn't mean the impression we had of him prior to signing was the same and Mourinho's transfer record hardly backs up your second paragraph.

Mou signed off on his transfer, it's not his first poor signing but I don't see why you are so adamant he had nothing to do with it. Either way, unless there's anything new to add let's just leave it here.

 

[el3mel]

You're just repeating yourself.

Google 'fred + Shakhtar' and look at results from before we signed him - you're impression of him as an attacking player is completely at odds with my point of view and pretty much every sports journalist out there. He would have fitted the profile of CM Mou was after very well.

He was trained as a holding midfielder and his reputation in Europe was the same, he was also trained in this position in Brasil after converting from being a defender, he was signed as a replacement for Fernandinho and his name really started gathering heat when he played well in that role against City in the CL. Just because he has turned out poorly for us doesn't mean the impression we had of him prior to signing was the same and Mourinho's transfer record hardly backs up your second paragraph.

Mou signed off on his transfer, it's not his first poor signing but I don't see why you are so adamant he had nothing to do with it. Either way, unless there's anything new to add let's just leave it here.

Why should I Google a thing when it's so obvious by just watching him he should never be played close to the defense regardless of his general performance and that's opposite to anything Mourinho wants from his deep midfield? His best performance for us always came when he's played in center of the park or up front, and each time he played close to the back he fecked it up. Just watching him gives you this idea. It's not rocket science and it's not something that's going to change over the day for him from Ukraine to PL because these are his qualities plain and simple. What was a hindsight was that his overall performance became crap as well.

Honestly who ever expected Fred to be a deep CM when we first signed him? Everyone expected him to be a box to box replacement for Herrera who is going to improve pressing in midfield and gives us more intensity in the center of the park and up front, not that he's going to help Matic shield the defense! From whom did you get that idea?

I agree we should leave that here because this discussion is honestly boring. You are free to believe every terrible signing was done by Mourinho if you like, even if everything in the player screams he's not a Mourinho type midfielder in double pivot, so yeah, let's leave it as it's here.

 

[JPRouve]

You're just repeating yourself.

Google 'fred + Shakhtar' and look at results from before we signed him - you're impression of him as an attacking player is completely at odds with my point of view and pretty much every sports journalist out there. He would have fitted the profile of CM Mou was after very well.

He was trained as a holding midfielder and his reputation in Europe was the same, he was also trained in this position in Brasil after converting from being a defender, he was signed as a replacement for Fernandinho and his name really started gathering heat when he played well in that role against City in the CL. Just because he has turned out poorly for us doesn't mean the impression we had of him prior to signing was the same and Mourinho's transfer record hardly backs up your second paragraph.

Mou signed off on his transfer, it's not his first poor signing but I don't see why you are so adamant he had nothing to do with it. Either way, unless there's anything new to add let's just leave it here.

That's not actually true, Fred was an attacking midfielder/wide attacker and that's actually where he started during his first months at Shakthar, Shakthar gives free access to their older games on their website so you can check it. As far as I know he has never been a defender and even at Shakthar he was mainly played besides Stepanenko who is a pure DM. I personally thought that he was going to replace Willian. Later he swapped position with Teixeira.

 

[tomaldinho1]

That's not actually true, Fred was an attacking midfielder/wide attacker and that's actually where he started during his first months at Shakthar, Shakthar gives free access to their older games on their website so you can check it. As far as I know he has never been a defender and even at Shakthar he was mainly played besides Stepanenko who is a pure DM. I personally thought that he was going to replace Willian. Later he swapped position with Teixeira.

I'm pretty sure he was a CM in Brasil and was signed as a CM for Shakhtar. I remember reading an article about how Dunga was coaching him personally a while back and it would be weird for Dunga to coach an AM/LW surely. Basically I saw him as playing in a double pivot with Matic and being the more dynamic one who would have a lot more responsibility when we were building attacks, particularly when it comes to physically bringing the ball out and moving the team up the pitch. I only really started watching him regularly at Shakhtar so not pretending I've been following his career for years prior.

On the defender bit, he apparently used to be an LB (according to the Guardian) before moving into midfield. On this part, again I actually don't know - that's just a quick google research on his background but it pops up enough so I don't doubt it.

Why should I Google a thing when it's so obvious by just watching him he should never be played close to the defense regardless of his general performance and that's opposite to anything Mourinho wants from his deep midfield? His best performance for us always came when he's played in center of the park or up front, and each time he played close to the back he fecked it up. Just watching him gives you this idea. It's not rocket science and it's not something that's going to change over the day for him from Ukraine to PL because these are his qualities plain and simple. What was a hindsight was that his overall performance became crap as well.

Honestly who ever expected Fred to be a deep CM when we first signed him? Everyone expected him to be a box to box replacement for Herrera who is going to improve pressing in midfield and gives us more intensity in the center of the park and up front, not that he's going to help Matic shield the defense! From whom did you get that idea?

I agree we should leave that here because this discussion is honestly boring. You are free to believe every terrible signing was done by Mourinho if you like, even if everything in the player screams he's not a Mourinho type midfielder in double pivot, so yeah, let's leave it as it's here.

Because I'm giving you evidence that there's a possibility you're mistaken. If you don't buy into my way of thinking, I thought you might take heed of the many articles from sports writers who disagreed with you. I don't think Fred has ever played up front for us? Your reference to B2B is frustrating because that's the point re Pogba's role for France and what Mou wanted. In my opinion he thought Fred was solid enough defensively to sit alongside Matic & also had the ability to bring the ball out and be part of the attacks in a way he'd never want Matic to be. E.g Khedira complementing Alonso, Stankovic with Cambiasso, Fabregas (to a lesser extent) with Matic.

I think Mou is responsible for all of his signings, whether good or bad. It's cool to have different opinions though.

 

[settembrini]

I haven't been reading this thread because the answer to the title is so obviously 'No' but I read the last page and @tomaldinho1 is basically right about everything.

 

[JPRouve]

I'm pretty sure he was a CM in Brasil and was signed as a CM for Shakhtar. I remember reading an article about how Dunga was coaching him personally a while back and it would be weird for Dunga to coach an AM/LW surely. Basically I saw him as playing in a double pivot with Matic and being the more dynamic one who would have a lot more responsibility when we were building attacks, particularly when it comes to physically bringing the ball out and moving the team up the pitch. I only really started watching him regularly at Shakhtar so not pretending I've been following his career for years prior.

On the defender bit, he apparently used to be an LB (according to the Guardian) before moving into midfield. On this part, again I actually don't know - that's just a quick google research on his background but it pops up enough so I don't doubt it.



Because I'm giving you evidence that there's a possibility you're mistaken. If you don't buy into my way of thinking, I thought you might take heed of the many articles from sports writers who disagreed with you. I don't think Fred has ever played up front for us? Your reference to B2B is frustrating because that's the point re Pogba's role for France and what Mou wanted. In my opinion he thought Fred was solid enough defensively to sit alongside Matic & also had the ability to bring the ball out and be part of the attacks in a way he'd never want Matic to be. E.g Khedira complementing Alonso, Stankovic with Cambiasso, Fabregas (to a lesser extent) with Matic.

I think Mou is responsible for all of his signings, whether good or bad. It's cool to have different opinions though.

I have actually seen him play and I don't remember him ever play as a CM before Shakhtar and like I said with Shakhtar he didn't start there. Transfermarkt agrees with me too.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I have actually seen him play and I don't remember him ever play as a CM before Shakhtar and like I said with Shakhtar he didn't start there. Transfermarkt agrees with me too.

Pre Shakhtar... As in you're a fan of Internacional? Transfermarkt is notoriously inaccurate for position - I can reference Whoscored to support me (can't link but you can find pretty easy) but I don't think either holds much weight. Either way, the role Fred was playing when we signed him was where I thought he'd slot in for us.

I haven't been reading this thread because the answer to the title is so obviously 'No' but I read the last page and @tomaldinho1 is basically right about everything.

Hopefully not sarcastic but thanks!

For the record my initial point is simply that Mou definitely signed off on Fred.

 

[JPRouve]

Pre Shakhtar... As in you're a fan of Internacional? Transfermarkt is notoriously inaccurate for position - I can reference Whoscored to support me (can't link but you can find pretty easy) but I don't think either holds much weight. Either way, the role Fred was playing when we signed him was where I thought he'd slot in for us.

No I was watching Serie A for Neymar, Lucas Moura and Ronaldinho. And like I said you can watch Shakthar games on their website, look at the first months and you will see where he played. Now one thing that I didn't watch was the Campeonato Gaucho, if he ever played in a different position it will be there.

 

[Bebestation]

Jose isn't a new manger nor a new idea.

Anyone who has followed his career knew that our second season was going to be his best. I've never been a fan but even I knew with a better squad he could have competed for a title if our competition was weaker - but only in the second season.

Jose can't last at a club for more than 3-4 years. He has incredibly poor man management skills. He gets in trouble with many many different players, arguably some of the most important ones of any clubs & has done so with players that he himself has bought or he himself never wanted;even if they produce in the pitch.

Then consider his defensive tactical approach which is perfectly fine - but is never stable, only ever leading to a team that gets more and more defensive the more they play together following Jose's strict tactics. Then there is the favouritism of strength and physicality over technical ability - which again he will try harder to implement a balance earlier on at his tenure at clubs only to get more and more physical alongside the defensive minded tactics as he stays at clubs. This has also correlated with the physicality and strength being greatly replaced in the modern game by technique and hardwork/counter pressing.

This can be seen the clearest with good managers like Jose, Sarri & Conte having to rely on strikers like Lukaku, Morata & Higuain in comparison to the list of such strikers that were available 10 years back. Jose himself let Lukaku go because he clearly wasn't good enough for him & even though Lukaku hardly improved any aspect of his game that needed to be improved - he bought him back because there is not many strikers like that anymore who are world class apart from possibly Kane & Lewandowski. A waste of money & shows a manager who will not change his strategies and tactics to adapt to a new style of football or atleast to get the best out of some of the forwards that are at the club or could be bought that are different in style. Anyone who understands football should know why Zlatan hasn't won a CL and couldn't adapt to Pep & his football - leading him to badmouthing pep and big mouthing Jose. Jose is an individualist - attempting to create 11 tank like individuals both in physicality and mentality who are hard to play against than anything extremely tactically magical & this is where I place Chelsea's CL win under Di matteo who made the same great players play in a more free & team like way for that one season.

Add this to his incredibly short term like approach where Jose is a short term winner - almost for himself and his CV more than trying to build a club that can grow as a ruling territory in football. Inter disappeared after his win, apart from the greats already at a good Madrid side - the others left. I'd say that if Chelsea weren't going through their first significant trophy full era - the same thing would have happened (the same way the likes of aguero, Silva, Kompany, Toure never left City whilst they were useful to their team).

Jose hasn't ever done it over 3 or 3.5 years & it wasn't going to suddenly happen at United. His strict tactics and his 4231, his preference of older players, his favouritism, his own enjoyment of getting in to his fights with players as well as the board, him liking strength over pure technique & his preference of defence over attack. Couple this with the hardest the PL has ever been - it just wasn't going to happen.

Woodward made a horrible decision when he hired Jose after LVG went because they were just the most polar opposite managers in terms of tactics, players and long term strategies. No doubt Jose did well in his second season & that deserves a pat on the back because no doubt as little as it was; it was success - but what we see now is what we see at all his clubs like inter milan - just a blank rotten left overs of individuals that are not as good to continue due to his short term individualistic approach to management.

Any DOF should only ever give him a 3 year contract and shoundt have a single sleepless night nor break a sweat because it simply never has happened & isn't going to change when the game has moved on from his era.

 

[settembrini]

Hopefully not sarcastic but thanks!

For the record my initial point is simply that Mou definitely signed off on Fred.

Not sarcastic, pretty much everything you are saying is right. Of course Mourinho signed off on Fred, the guy complained openly to the media about everything he didn't like, if he was unhappy about us signing Fred we would have said it in his press conferences.

 

[Ralph1386]

Add this to his incredibly short term like approach where Jose is a short term winner - almost for himself and his CV more than trying to build a club that can grow as a ruling territory in football. Inter disappeared after his win, apart from the greats already at a good Madrid side - the others left. I'd say that if Chelsea weren't going through their first significant trophy full era - the same thing would have happened (the same way the likes of aguero, Silva, Kompany, Toure never left City whilst they were useful to their team).

Jose hasn't ever done it over 3 or 3.5 years & it wasn't going to suddenly happen at United. His strict tactics and his 4231, his preference of older players, his favouritism, his own enjoyment of getting in to his fights with players as well as the board, him liking strength over pure technique & his preference of defence over attack. Couple this with the hardest the PL has ever been - it just wasn't going to happen.

Woodward made a horrible decision when he hired Jose after LVG went because they were just the most polar opposite managers in terms of tactics, players and long term strategies. No doubt Jose did well in his second season & that deserves a pat on the back because no doubt as little as it was; it was success - but what we see now is what we see at all his clubs like inter milan - just a blank rotten left overs of individuals that are not as good to continue due to his short term individualistic approach to management.

Any DOF should only ever give him a 3 year contract and shoundt have a single sleepless night nor break a sweat because it simply never has happened & isn't going to change when the game has moved on from his era.

Agree with the bold. Lots of people could see it from a million miles away before he was hired.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

We would have been better than we are now but we never would have gotten to where we want to be.

 

[hn4manunited]

Did you miss the Sevilla game?

His entire footballing philosophy is based on sitting back and waiting for the opponents to make mistakes - that's cowardly.

His footballing philosophy is based on pragmatism. He will set the team up the way the team needs to play based on the team’s capabilities and form at that moment to give the team the best chance to get a result.

 

[hn4manunited]

When you stop your blind worship, you can actually see things from wider perspective. It's too late for you and other guys, keep worshiping the toxic cnut.

I think it’s the other way around. It’s too late for you it seems, more like.

Those of us arguing for these specifics with regards to Jose doesn’t necessarily constitute worshipping him. We’re simply trying to get people like you to see the bigger picture instead of microscopically focused on hating on everything Jose.

 

[hn4manunited]

Not in season 3, they weren't...

I'm not saying I needed to see something complete in season 2. But I think that at this stage you should see a team with a certain style and say 'yeah, I can see how with three better players in certain positions the team will be great'. We weren't there.

i would encourage you to go read up on the threads where LVG shared the inner workings of recruiting and player acquisition when it comes to Ed. Also the information that is starting to come out about whether some of the signings were Jose’s signings or more Ed signings.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Saw this nice interview from McTominay, which among other things reveals that he and Jose still keep in touch and there is a huge amount of respect for him:


It's kind of telling to me. The kids been one of the bright spots on this team not least of all for showing some actual heart and grit on the field. And so going back to Jose, makes me think that this hypothetical of letting Jose get his way would have meant weeding out weak personalities. We're overweight with them now, so it could only have been good for us.

To rephrase, I'm convinced that players (and fans) that couldn't appreciate Jose with his hard line are just a bunch of p*ssies. If Sir Alex were were starting his career fresh today, they wouldn't be able to handle it. And we'd see this split crowd up in arms behind their favorite players, wanting the manager gone for playing the like of Park or Fletcher.

And that's a big reason why our success is gone. Sure, we can do with more quality. But technical ability and skill gets trumped by hard work and spirit. And we're bereft of it. Jose would have the team full of the right mentality and that would be most of the battle to at least be in touching distance of success, instead of closing in on relegation positions.

 

[Foxbatt]

Saw this nice interview from McTominay, which among other things reveals that he and Jose still keep in touch and there is a huge amount of respect for him:


It's kind of telling to me. The kids been one of the bright spots on this team not least of all for showing some actual heart and grit on the field. And so going back to Jose, makes me think that this hypothetical of letting Jose get his way would have meant weeding out weak personalities. We're overweight with them now, so it could only have been good for us.

To rephrase, I'm convinced that players (and fans) that couldn't appreciate Jose with his hard line are just a bunch of p*ssies. If Sir Alex were were starting his career fresh today, they wouldn't be able to handle it. And we'd see this split crowd up in arms behind their favorite players, wanting the manager gone for playing the like of Park or Fletcher.

And that's a big reason why our success is gone. Sure, we can do with more quality. But technical ability and skill gets trumped by hard work and spirit. And we're bereft of it. Jose would have the team full of the right mentality and that would be most of the battle to at least be in touching distance of success, instead of closing in on relegation positions.

Spot on. Jose was toxic but given the right backing he will win trophies. It would be very ugly at times too.
As for SAF didn't he have a go at the Aberdeen players calling them a disgrace, minutes after the won the Cup in Scotland?

 

[Sterling Archer]

Spot on. Jose was toxic but given the right backing he will win trophies. It would be very ugly at times too.
As for SAF didn't he have a go at the Aberdeen players calling them a disgrace, minutes after the won the Cup in Scotland?

I understand that people's perspectives vary. I got my ass whupped as a kid. As an adult I look back and recognize it's quite different from child abuse. But I'm also an immigrant in the US. And a lot of non immigrants in the US would probably class that as too hard on a kid. And yet, anecdotally I keep finding people raised with a similar background (unrelated to race) to be much grittier in their lives, react to criticism positively even if it's not framed ideally, more attuned to working hard to earn their keep versus expecting it.

Not saying its the right way or that it works 100% of the time. But yeah, from my perspective they're all a bunch of whiny, entitled babies. To each their own. I prefer the type that aim to be stronger and better when their boss or parent denigrates, rather than schemes to get rid or calls threats of child protection for getting a smack on the behind, whereas real abuse victims take it, repress it for years and move on with their lives often with serious psychology issues none of which is being a spoiled brat. This United team is just that; a bunch of spoiled brats.

 

[lex talionis]

You can always argue what if this, what if that, but truly great managers don’t deliver such poor results as what Jose delivered at the end of his miserable tenure. The players looked miserable and the quality of our play was shambolic.

I’m not a fan of Woody, but give the man credit for not letting Jose waste any more in transfer funds than he already did.

 

[roonster09]

I think it’s the other way around. It’s too late for you it seems, more like.

Those of us arguing for these specifics with regards to Jose doesn’t necessarily constitute worshipping him. We’re simply trying to get people like you to see the bigger picture instead of microscopically focused on hating on everything Jose.

Sure

Shame you didn't post "but he finished second", disappointing.

 

[Sterling Archer]

You can always argue what if this, what if that, but truly great managers don’t deliver such poor results as what Jose delivered at the end of his miserable tenure. The players looked miserable and the quality of our play was shambolic.

I’m not a fan of Woody, but give the man credit for not letting Jose waste any more in transfer funds than he already did.

Can only hope he doesn't give Ole any more time given as bad a record with no trophies

 

[In Rainbows]

I think it’s the other way around. It’s too late for you it seems, more like.

Those of us arguing for these specifics with regards to Jose doesn’t necessarily constitute worshipping him. We’re simply trying to get people like you to see the bigger picture instead of microscopically focused on hating on everything Jose.

What bigger picture? The bigger picture is that under Mourinho we didn't get close to challenging for a major title, and that his best season was mostly due to de Gea. You can't argue against this fact with the evidence stacked against you.

United had the 2nd best defense in the league in terms of goals scored against, which was the main reason we finished in 2nd. Only 1 more than City, but 8 less than Spurs. Despite this, Mourinho thought United needed a boost in defense. Why? Because he knew that mostly came from de Gea's brilliance.
United had conceded the most shots on goal of all the top 6 sides. Yet United had the 2nd best defensive record. We also had the 5th best expected goals against, outdoing it by 15 goals. Why is it that our goals conceded stat directly opposed Mourinho's defensive transfer plans and the shots on goal conceded stat? The answer is obvious. de Gea carried our defense. de Gea was voted as the Matt Busby player of the year, and voted by the players as the best player of the year. Strong correlation there isn't it?

Meanwhile, we had created the least amount of chances out of all the top 6 sides. Our expected goals was 6th best in the league.

All of this points to de Gea saving us. That's the context of that 2nd season which Mourinho fans love to brag about. Once again, this is backed up by our eyes where we were clearly awful on the eye. And what do you know, that position is the one position that could escape Mourinho's crap football.

 

[MackRobinson]

So by your logic then you don’t judge a teams achievement based on their league position, you compare them to the team who wins the league

That's purely your interpretation. Like I said before, he finished closer to 5th than 1st which means he was closer to not qualifying for the CL than challenging for a title. He is clearly being judged in comparison to the other teams. This is all really simple stuff.

So beating every team in the league at least once and finishing 2nd with a very mediocre side is not a good achievement because one team got loads of points

Sorry to break it to you but there are no trophies for finishing 2nd and beating every team. Interesting the side you are calling mediocre is the side he claimed was equipped to win the title.

Asked if he was targeting the domestic title this season, he told BBC Sport: "We are better prepared for that."
....
Mourinho said: "I am happy with my squad but I would like to have two more players. One midfield player would give me more options.

"The other is an attacking player through the wings to give me more attacking options."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/40720888

"In many ways, it is my team. In terms of the squad, this is my second transfer window. I was thinking, three transfer windows, I need that. But after two windows I have a good group and a football club much better equipped.
...
"We also have people coming later - Ashley Young, Luke Shaw, Marcos Rojo, maybe Zlatan (Ibrahimovic). They can still be like new players for us later in the season, so we are fine."
...
He said: "To buy lots of good players is important. Better squads are better equipped to win the title. That is normal, but that is not enough. I think every one of us is equipped to win the title.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...nited-are-ready-for-a-serious-title-challenge

 

[Bo_7iDaR]

I sure am glad Woodward prevented Mourinho from wasting United's transfer war chests, otherwise we'd have had a net spend of £30 million this summer instead of the £60 million we ended up spending. A true genius that guy is.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

I don’t think he’d have us challenging but if he was kept on and given the backing he deserved in the market we would be comfortably top 4.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

No I don't think so, I don't think he could challenge teams that finish on 95+ points.

That said I think a real Mourinho team can still be successful, he will probably show that in his next job. I think while we still had zlatan and he still had the dressing room as a result we were quite effective

If any manager can challenge a team with 95 plus points,then it’s surely Mourinho.His Real Madrid ended up with a 100 points in 2012....No other manager has even come close to getting 95...(Obviously Apart from Pep and Klopp)