RMD83
Full Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2016
- Messages
- 827
Come on then. I’m sure your waiting for someone to say “because they do eat dogs in Korea”. Enlighten us.Could you perhaps enlighten me as to how it's not then?
Come on then. I’m sure your waiting for someone to say “because they do eat dogs in Korea”. Enlighten us.Could you perhaps enlighten me as to how it's not then?
I'm not baiting anyone. So you can give a genuine answer as to why you think it's not racist.Come on then. I’m sure your waiting for someone to say “because they do eat dogs in Korea”. Enlighten us.
Too ambitious?You should feel ashamed of yourself then. In fact you should feel twice as ashamed for also suggesting that all scousers live in council houses. Disgusting.
Could you perhaps enlighten me as to how it's not then?
How the hell have you never heard that? It's one of the best known chants in England, let alone OT.Never heard it before, but that's without a doubt racist. No two ways about it.
Yes you are baiting. It doesn’t take a mind reader to work out that you are waiting for someone to say “because they eat dogs in Korea” to which you will of course re educate them.I'm not baiting anyone. So you can give a genuine answer as to why you think it's not racist.
I never had the words spelled out like that. I knew there was a Park chant along those lines, but I either never knew the actual lyrics or forgot them.How the hell have you never heard that? It's one of the best known chants in England, let alone OT.
Perhaps the fact that you've to pre-emptively complain about how you think the conversion will go should itself tell you about the tenability of your position?Yes you are baiting. It doesn’t take a mind reader to work out that you are waiting for someone to say “because they eat dogs in Korea” to which you will of course re educate them.
For the record no I don’t think the chant is racist. I’d love to know how many Koreans would be offended. I don’t happen to be one or know any but I’m going to take an educated guess and say not many. Much like when there was talks of renaming the Washington Redskins because it was insensitive to native Indians only to find out that when they actually did a poll among native Indians the over whelming majority didn’t give a toss.
Could you perhaps enlighten me as to how it's not then?
Something is a racist or religious hate incident if the victim or anyone else thinks it was carried out because of hostility or prejudice based on race or religion.
preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.
Well when someone asks someone to “enlighten” them on why the chant isn’t racist it’s hardly difficult to pre-empt how the conversation is going to go. Its safe to say you aren’t going to agree with them. Obviously I have fell into your trap here where you can just endlessly go around in circles now questioning my character for being so bold as to make judgement on what your stance is on the subject. Maybe that says more about your tenability than it does mine.Perhaps the fact that you've to pre-emptively complain about how you think the conversion will go should itself tell you about the tenability of your position?
The way I see it, the problem is the way it's used as an insult to put down someone else for being in an even worse situation. The people chanting are from a society and a culture where eating dogs is a massive, unthinkable taboo. They are not pointing it out as a mere fact. They are employing it as a weapon to take the piss against their rivals.I too grappled with the idea of whether it was racist or not. The reason being that the chant is based on looking at his race and making a stereotype about him.
In the UK racism is defined as:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...n/hate-crime/racist-and-religious-hate-crime/
I highlighted "prejudice based on race". I looked up the definition of prejudice:
We have no reason to believe Park eats dogs except based on his nationality. The chant appears to be based on looking at his race, assuming he eats dogs because its part of the culture, and then implied that part of the culture was horrible.
I don't think any individual component is necessarily racist. But when you combine them together, I can see how some people like yourself may view that as racist. It has very similar echoes to the Lukaku chant. I think I've said before that I do not find the chant racist, but I honestly don't know anymore.
Yeah, I actually see now my earlier posts had clear confrontational tone, so it makes sense people would get defensive.Well when someone asks someone to “enlighten” them on why the chant isn’t racist it’s hardly difficult to pre-empt how the conversation is going to go. Its safe to say you aren’t going to agree with them. Obviously I have fell into your trap here where you can just endlessly go around in circles now questioning my character for being so bold as to make judgement on what your stance is on the subject. Maybe that says more about your tenability than it does mine.
Hope Liverpool fans haven’t been preaching as they like to do
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...anner-mocking-size-Divock-Origis-manhood.html
While i agree that some chants step over the line, and shouldn't be sung, you can't really compare what happens at the ground with what happens in work. They're completely different scenarios governed by totally different social contracts. You can't get drunk, shout, swear, jump around wildly, sing songs or fart loudly in work but football matches are one of the few places where you can do them all with impunity. It's part of the atmosphere and a traditional part of the ritual.
I see what you mean about the Park song but again, references to the basic knowledge that Koreans eat dog is not racist. You can express surprise or dislike about a culinary habit but to call it 'racist' expresses misunderstanding of what that actually means. If you added other things then yes it would become racist.
I've lived in Korea and the response I have always had from people who know little about the culture and daily life there, is did I try dog meat and why they wouldn't want to.
As an Aussie who has lived in two different East Asian countries - still living in one - similar questions were asked of me in Korea about kangaroo meat and now in my second country about the same.
These questions came from people whose country tells them to be proud of their mono-cultural society and that they are 'pure blooded' Koreans and Japanese. Their education system from kindergarten through to high school is based on that notion despite some lip service now to 'diversity' and the western media taking official statements and many other things at face value.
There are also differences of opinions by some in those countries of course but they are not driving those societies.
Many things I have heard in both countries were certainly based on ethnocentrism, drawing clear boundaries between the people native to the country and outsiders, and yes, racism in the sense that it comes from the notion that others are inferior in one or some ways because they were not born with your ethnicity - the word 'race' is actually too broad.
However, questions about kangaroo meat, and some other stereotypes about Aussies and 'outside people' were common and not based on bigotry/racism. Many Koreans and Japanese people have told me they think it's strange or not good to eat kangaroos - and their opinion is fine. I don't eat kangaroo.
BTW - I always have and always will refuse to eat dog meat. I always told my Korean co-workers and friends please do exactly as you like there but I don't want to try it.
The horror of the hanging and other prolonged torturing of dogs in their meat markets, the unbelievable cruelty of big dogs in cages out in the boiling Korean sun where they have zero room to move including in some scumbags' gardens and other personal property, and the criminal activity of driving around and snatching pets of the street to take to those places of horror mean I refuse to eat dog meat.
The lack of animal protection laws and basic standards of animal treatment there makes many of us respond in a way that recoils from dog meat eating. It is strange to those who don't eat it hence the Park chant at the level of culinary differences.
It depends what's interpreted as racism? Being from Indian decent I've had ain't you got a corner shop to open, or the old joke thrown at me about why Indians can't take corners because they'll build a shop on it. But I've always taken that as banter while I do know people who call that racism. Very easy to show the recism card while it might not be racism in whole.
I too grappled with the idea of whether it was racist or not. The reason being that the chant is based on looking at his race and making a stereotype about him.
In the UK racism is defined as:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...n/hate-crime/racist-and-religious-hate-crime/
I highlighted "prejudice based on race". I looked up the definition of prejudice:
We have no reason to believe Park eats dogs except based on his nationality. The chant appears to be based on looking at his race, assuming he eats dogs because its part of the culture, and then implied that part of the culture was horrible.
I don't think any individual component is necessarily racist. But when you combine them together, I can see how some people like yourself may view that as racist. It has very similar echoes to the Lukaku chant. I think I've said before that I do not find the chant racist, but I honestly don't know anymore.
Absolutely. However, since there are a few here who keep insisting that such a chant in Park's case is 'racist' and I have lived in Korea, then sometimes it is best to write posts that give some real information as opposed to the flat assertion something is 'racist'.
Especially as eating dogs is abhorrent to a number of cultures where they are almost like family members. Hence the context of the chant in saying then it could be worse.
I agree and it's also about the fact that dogs are pets or just about family members in the UK where Park played. It's a culinary observation and to apply the blanket term 'racist' is incorrect.honestly I don’t think the thought process behind that chant was really that deep to be honest. It’s based on banter.
My Korean friends don't mind the Park chant but there are Koreans who definitely would be offended. There is also a strong culture in Korea of being offended by perceived slights to the Korean national identity and culture that in many other developed countries would be seen as part of critical thinking and debate. It is similar to the People's Republic of China in that respect.Yes you are baiting. It doesn’t take a mind reader to work out that you are waiting for someone to say “because they eat dogs in Korea” to which you will of course re educate them.
For the record no I don’t think the chant is racist. I’d love to know how many Koreans would be offended. I don’t happen to be one or know any but I’m going to take an educated guess and say not many. Much like when there was talks of renaming the Washington Redskins because it was insensitive to native Indians only to find out that when they actually did a poll among native Indians the over whelming majority didn’t give a toss.
That's what the Inter fans also said regarding Lukaku and CagliariI dont find the Park chant racist, a bit stereotype-y but clearly meant as harmless banter with no racist connotations.
For the record I'm not Asian and I've eaten dog. It was shite. I'm Welsh and it's the equivalent of someone calling me a sheep shagger ...... nothing racist about it. Provocative and stereotypical yeah, but would the police get involved if I reported it? Feck no. Same goes for Park. Feck no
Monkey noises to a black player? Police would definitely get involved and rightly so.
You should feel ashamed of yourself then. In fact you should feel twice as ashamed for also suggesting that all scousers live in council houses. Disgusting.
As a black man I have never wanted to sing about or photoshop a white mans penis.
Can I ask the caucasian population WTF is this phenomenon!?
There's a pretty wide gap between singing at football matches and lynchings, no? Crazy comparison.Slavery and lynchings used to be a traditional part of rituals.
Traditions and rituals are meant to be broken.
There's a pretty wide gap between singing at football matches and lynchings, no? Crazy comparison.
I appreciate the complexity of your point but the post I was replying to wasn't examining the similarities in psychology of a passionate football fan vs a vocal racist (which is interesting). He/ she was using racist chants as justification to end the traditions that make football interesting. Yes, some of us have a greater capacity to hate and, yes, that hatred can manifest itself in some ugly ways but, for me, chanting/ anger are just part of what makes going to football an exciting experience. And most fans are capable of being passionate while recognising the limits.To the degree that one believes the validity of the research, there is a connection between concerns deep in the unconscious and behaviours. So one is not comparing lynchings and singing, but the drivers of both, which the researchers say has a common link, though the impact of severity of the behaviour is an order of magnitude apart.
So I'm a black man with a pretty high tolerance level. I often think the racism card is overplayed, probably cos I set my bar quite high and don't mind a bit of banter. So at the Liverpool game, a couple of ladies in front of me kept calling me Pogba and wanting to take pictures with me. It got quite persistent and irritating. I wasn't sure how to react.
1) It was ruining my enjoyment of the game. 2) I bear absolutely no resemblance to Pogba, beyond being a fellow black man.
Just thought I'd ask, what do people think of this? I waved it off but it did leave a sour taste...
Were they old? Sounds like the kind of thing that people completely detached from modern thinking would say and do.So I'm a black man with a pretty high tolerance level. I often think the racism card is overplayed, probably cos I set my bar quite high and don't mind a bit of banter. So at the Liverpool game, a couple of ladies in front of me kept calling me Pogba and wanting to take pictures with me. It got quite persistent and irritating. I wasn't sure how to react.
1) It was ruining my enjoyment of the game. 2) I bear absolutely no resemblance to Pogba, beyond being a fellow black man.
Just thought I'd ask, what do people think of this? I waved it off but it did leave a sour taste...
Were they old? Sounds like the kind of thing that people completely detached from modern thinking would say and do.
Without knowing what you look like, it depends. It's certainly true that people cannot tell people of other races apart as well as they can people within their own race.
There's a pretty wide gap between singing at football matches and lynchings, no? Crazy comparison.
While I'm familiar with that sentiment, I'm short, with a full beard, and a lot fairer than Pogba. I couldn't look any more different than him if I tried.
So I'm a black man with a pretty high tolerance level. I often think the racism card is overplayed, probably cos I set my bar quite high and don't mind a bit of banter. So at the Liverpool game, a couple of ladies in front of me kept calling me Pogba and wanting to take pictures with me. It got quite persistent and irritating. I wasn't sure how to react.
1) It was ruining my enjoyment of the game. 2) I bear absolutely no resemblance to Pogba, beyond being a fellow black man.
Just thought I'd ask, what do people think of this? I waved it off but it did leave a sour taste...
So I'm a black man with a pretty high tolerance level. I often think the racism card is overplayed, probably cos I set my bar quite high and don't mind a bit of banter. So at the Liverpool game, a couple of ladies in front of me kept calling me Pogba and wanting to take pictures with me. It got quite persistent and irritating. I wasn't sure how to react.
1) It was ruining my enjoyment of the game. 2) I bear absolutely no resemblance to Pogba, beyond being a fellow black man.
Just thought I'd ask, what do people think of this? I waved it off but it did leave a sour taste...
It doesn't sound malicious, more ignorant/ stupid then. Hopefully you don't see them at the game again.Nope. Very young and modern looking, hence my surprise. I could sense the guys around were a bit uncomfortable as well, just shrugging their shoulders. I was the only black guy in the area but then it's been my seat for 10 years. The ladies were new, never seen them before.
I wouldn't do anything to address drunkenness, singing, piss-taking songs at football as they're (within reason) a big part of the atmosphere - which is a big reason to go to a game, and not just watch it at home. The match going experience can't withstand being any more diluted than it already is so, given the choice of a thousand more iPad sporting nonentities or a thousand young lads having a few beers and enjoying themselves, I'd happily take the latter.To accept something as a tradition and not address it if it isn't right is to get complacent and solidify views that can be incredibly unhealthy to discourse.
People live by their bad habits and claim they can't change. It's more that they won't because they definitely can.
If there are things in football that are bad (and there are plenty) then should we chalk them up to tradition and pretend we can't do anything about it or should be confront it and attempt to change it?
Like I said, traditions and rituals are meant to be broken and they damn well should be as we progress in knowledge.
Of course there's a pretty wide gap but the motivators are the same.