Next Labour leader - Starmer and Rayner win

[Classical Mechanic]

Apart from you and a few other centrists in here . Where is the call for this New New Labour coming from?. Traditional Labour supporters were the ones that felt left out under Blair.

What would you qualify as a call exactly?

You’ve just had a worse defeat than the Foot debacle. That was a leadership that ran on a completely mental platform that included Brexit and the nationalisation of banks!

Blair won 418 seat in 97 and 3 terms!

What will it take for you to accept the scale of this rejection?

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Writing in the Observer, Lammy suggests he will make a decision on whether to run over Christmas, having assessed who best can counter what he calls the “populist, ethnic nationalism” of Boris Johnson.
“The alternative to Boris Johnson’s ethnic nationalism that Labour should offer is a civic nationalism,” Lammy says. “Rather than basing national pride on biological heritage, skin colour or religion, civic nationalism says that we can be united around shared values and institutions.
...........
Lammy suggests a series of radical reforms, including a British bill of rights and a codified constitution, a new proportional voting system to encourage more compromise in politics, a universal basic income and a compulsory national civic service in which all young people would be compelled to take part.

 

[Ubik]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

The argument = not won.

It found that 46 per cent of voters think Labour should ditch its current agenda on tax and change course, while just 27 per cent are in favour of policy similar to Mr Corbyn’s.

Forty-five per cent of voters also want Labour’s current positions on public spending and nationalisation to be dumped, while in both cases 28 per cent do not.

The gap is even wider on security issues, with 48 per cent saying that the new leader should break with Mr Corbyn’s approach to defence. Just 21 per cent support the current policy.

Even among Labour voters, only around half say the next leader should definitely continue Mr Corbyn’s approach to tax and nationalisation.

By contrast, Labour’s current health policies are much more popular, with a majority (42 per cent versus 33 per cent) wanting them to be maintained. The party’s position on climate change is also slightly more popular than unpopular.

 

[sun_tzu]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Couldn't see lammy winning the leadership election...might have a decent chance for the deputy role if he went for that

 

[sammsky1]

Couldn't see lammy winning the leadership election...might have a decent chance for the deputy role if he went for that

Why not? Because of his politics and character or because he’s black?

Personally, I’ve seen him as one of Labours best chamber speakers, albeit it’s not a very distinguished field.

 

[sun_tzu]

Why not? Because of his politics and character or because he’s black?

None of the above...
It seems the left have coalesced around wrong Dailey
Starmer has a bunch of support
And I think the centrist wing will coalesce around nandy or Phillips
I'm not sure where I see his backing coming from
I think his politics and character and quite possibly the BAME element are all actually advantageous to him hence I think he would have a good run at deputy but I don't think he has the internal support in the plp to mount a serious run at the top job

 

[OleGunnar20]

Lisa Nandy doing my head in more than a little right now. Someone like Anna Turley was also under pressure in a very brexit area, but was against it because it would've battered the area even harder. All Nandy seems to do is parrot Tory talking points about thinking voters are dumb. Great job on giving Johnson the boost on the withdrawal bill, as well.

I'm all for thinking about how to regenerate towns and devolve power, but less of the "end the culture war" comments whilst saying remainers thought northerners were thick would be nice. And the less said of Stephen Kinnock, the better.

As a constituent of his, what's this about Kinnock? Genuine question, I've been on a much needed political hiatus this last few days.

 

[Ubik]

As a constituent of his, what's this about Kinnock? Genuine question, I've been on a much needed political hiatus this last few days.

He's been giving some opinions

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[EwanI Ted]

Murphy and Milnes attack strategy for the election has been leaked. Its bordering on sabotage frankly.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[jeff_goldblum]

The argument = not won.

Wasn't there an article in the Independent saying that 75+% of articles about Corbyn misrepresented his views in some way? When polled individually most of the policies (the 2017 ones at least) are popular, the issue comes when you associate them with Corbyn and, to a lesser extent, Labour.

For me, this is one of the reasons that, when it comes down to it, I will be urging others on the left of the party to elect a soft-left figure who is happy to build on the 2017 manifesto and foster some unity, rather than a Corbyn acolyte. The left needs to accept that, whether we think it's fair or not, Corbyn's name is poison to a lot of voters and electing one of his close circle will write the papers' attack lines for the next 5 years for them.

 

[Ubik]

Murphy and Milnes attack strategy for the election has been leaked. Its bordering on sabotage frankly.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

It's horrible that those two have permanent contracts (given not that long ago I believe) so will get a pay-off when they're deservedly sacked, whilst there are tons of other staffers being let go due to the short money situation.

Wasn't there an article in the Independent saying that 75+% of articles about Corbyn misrepresented his views in some way? When polled individually most of the policies (the 2017 ones at least) are popular, the issue comes when you associate them with Corbyn and, to a lesser extent, Labour.

For me, this is one of the reasons that, when it comes down to it, I will be urging others on the left of the party to elect a soft-left figure who is happy to build on the 2017 manifesto and foster some unity, rather than a Corbyn acolyte. The left needs to accept that, whether we think it's fair or not, Corbyn's name is poison to a lot of voters and electing one of his close circle will write the papers' attack lines for the next 5 years for them.

I think you basically need to be trusted by the electorate before they'll be willing to back policies that involve change to the status quo. It's one thing saying you like something to a pollster, who doesn't mention how much it would cost, but it's another to vote for a party to implement it in addition to a number of other policies that involve a lot of change/money. Nationalisation is a good example, it tends to poll okay but I doubt it ever actively brings in votes because it's a minor issue to people, and I think can allow the opposition to frame you in a negative light (hark back to the 70s, frame you as statist etc).

It's also an unfortunate fact that Corbyn's name isn't going to vanish even when he's left the leadership, he's so unpopular that the Tories will bring his name up as often as they can to link him to the next leader, much in the manner of the financial crisis post 2010, or Foot in the 80s.

 

[Buster15]

Apart from you and a few other centrists in here . Where is the call for this New New Labour coming from?. Traditional Labour supporters were the ones that felt left out under Blair.

New Labour 408 seats in 1997.
Old Labour 203 seats in 2019.
And far fewer people voted for them in traditional Labour strongholds.
Don't believe me. Listen to and look at what labour voters said and did.
The facts are perfectly clear.

 

[NWRed]

Murphy and Milnes attack strategy for the election has been leaked. Its bordering on sabotage frankly.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

It's as if they're Tory agents looking to bring them down from within. This is what happens when idealogues are in charge.

 

[esmufc07]

Yep, that’s it Laura...

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Xeno]

Boris, Cummings and the front bench Toffs are way too politically savvy for both of them.

They’re both not great. RLB too far left and average politician, Raynor is a ridiculous notion, far too emotional, will get ruined by the opposition and press and she’s just not likeable.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Why not? Because of his politics and character or because he’s black?

Personally, I’ve seen him as one of Labours best chamber speakers, albeit it’s not a very distinguished field.

Sadly Lammy could never win a general election because he is black and the older generations of this country are still racist. He would never get the support of those deep working class towns that still hold the same views embedded over decades.

I cannot recall any black MPs winning outside metropolitan areas where the majority of young people ate located. Parties don’t even field black candidates in those areas because they know their chances are slim to none. The vast majority of black MPs are concentrated in London.

 

[sun_tzu]

I cannot recall any black MPs winning outside metropolitan areas

In this election I think

Bim Afolami
Kwasi Kwarteng
Kemi Badenoch
Darren Henry
James Cleverly
Helen grant
Adam Afriyie

Sure there could be more... But some fairly high profile ones there

There are currently 21 MP's who are black / black mixed race

This is just over 3% of mps... With a black British population in the UK of around 3.5% so that sounds kinda logical

I think about half the black British population lives in London... And about half the MPs come from London constituiences (other metropolitan areas I would say I think you have an MP in Leicester, liverpool and one in Newcastle)... Again this seems relatively proportionate in terms of the London centric bias as MP's are supposed to at least represent an area they live (I know some don't)

I'm not sure the facts support your assumptions on this one... Though that's not to say things couldn't be more equitable in terms of distribution... I might be wrong about this but to the best of my knowledge for example Scotland has never elected a black MP or to the Scottish assembly (though I think the brexit party representative to the EU for Scotland was black British?)

Lammy I think simply does not have the backing in the party to get on the ballott... And that's not because he's black it's because the party seems to be splitting into 3 camps
Stay on the same platform (left... Momentum... Long bailey will probably be the pick ahead of Raynor or burgon
Small changed... Reduced platform but similar (middle ground... Starmer will probably be the pick but I think lammy and thornberry would fall into this category as well)
More comprehensive change ...( AKA Centrist blairite red Tory scum)... Nandy or Jess Phillips will probably be the one they coalease around with the likes of cooper also falling into this area

Suspect we get wrong daily + starter and or nandy / Phillips on the ballott

I'm hoping Phillips and for sure I'd vote lammy before wrong daily or burgon ... But on this occasion I simply don't think ethnicity is the reason he will be unviable (chukka was supposedly nailed in for next leader before jezbollah somehow stumbled into the race)

On this occasion I think the three tranches seem to be forming and I don't see lammy having the support certainly in the plp but also probably not with the unions and the local parties (which will have a big momentum leaning)

That said I hope he has a more prominent role in a Starmer or Phillips shadow cabinet (I hope he leaves the party along with 2/3rd of the plp if wrong daily wins)

 

[Classical Mechanic]

In this election I think

Bim Afolami
Kwasi Kwarteng
Kemi Badenoch
Darren Henry
James Cleverly
Helen grant
Adam Afriyie

All Tories too.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

In this election I think

Bim Afolami
Kwasi Kwarteng
Kemi Badenoch
Darren Henry
James Cleverly
Helen grant
Adam Afriyie

Sure there could be more... But some fairly high profile ones there

There are currently 21 MP's who are black / black mixed race

This is just over 3% of mps... With a black British population in the UK of around 3.5% so that sounds kinda logical

I think about half the black British population lives in London... And about half the MPs come from London constituiences (other metropolitan areas I would say I think you have an MP in Leicester, liverpool and one in Newcastle)... Again this seems relatively proportionate in terms of the London centric bias as MP's are supposed to at least represent an area they live (I know some don't)

I'm not sure the facts support your assumptions on this one... Though that's not to say things couldn't be more equitable in terms of distribution... I might be wrong about this but to the best of my knowledge for example Scotland has never elected a black MP or to the Scottish assembly (though I think the brexit party representative to the EU for Scotland was black British?)

Lammy I think simply does not have the backing in the party to get on the ballott... And that's not because he's black it's because the party seems to be splitting into 3 camps
Stay on the same platform (left... Momentum... Long bailey will probably be the pick ahead of Raynor or burgon
Small changed... Reduced platform but similar (middle ground... Starmer will probably be the pick but I think lammy and thornberry would fall into this category as well)
More comprehensive change ...( AKA Centrist blairite red Tory scum)... Nandy or Jess Phillips will probably be the one they coalease around with the likes of cooper also falling into this area

Suspect we get wrong daily + starter and or nandy / Phillips on the ballott

I'm hoping Phillips and for sure I'd vote lammy before wrong daily or burgon ... But on this occasion I simply don't think ethnicity is the reason he will be unviable (chukka was supposedly nailed in for next leader before jezbollah somehow stumbled into the race)

On this occasion I think the three tranches seem to be forming and I don't see lammy having the support certainly in the plp but also probably not with the unions and the local parties (which will have a big momentum leaning)

That said I hope he has a more prominent role in a Starmer or Phillips shadow cabinet (I hope he leaves the party along with 2/3rd of the plp if wrong daily wins)

Out of all the ones you listed only David Henry in Broxtowe is remotely in a “deep working class” area but lets face it against Anna Soubry anyone would have won.

The rest of them are a stone-throw from London.

 

[711]

Sadly Lammy could never win a general election because he is black and the older generations of this country are still racist. He would never get the support of those deep working class towns that still hold the same views embedded over decades.

I cannot recall any black MPs winning outside metropolitan areas where the majority of young people ate located. Parties don’t even field black candidates in those areas because they know their chances are slim to none. The vast majority of black MPs are concentrated in London.

 

[711]

Sadly Lammy could never win a general election because he is black and the older generations of this country are still racist. He would never get the support of those deep working class towns that still hold the same views embedded over decades.

I cannot recall any black MPs winning outside metropolitan areas where the majority of young people ate located. Parties don’t even field black candidates in those areas because they know their chances are slim to none. The vast majority of black MPs are concentrated in London.

Great start to winning back the northern vote. Call them all racists.

Was it @Classical Mechanic who said 'cut out the identity politics'? Whoever it was is right anyway, this constant categorisation is turning voters away from Labour in shedloads. They are bored shitless by it at best. Talk to women and 'people of colour' that aren't in the leftie bubble and half of those are turned off or insulted by it as well.

 

[Sweet Square]

Talk to women and 'people of colour' that aren't in the leftie bubble and half of those are turned off or insulted by it as well.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[711]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

You'll have to explain that one, sorry. Is it you?

I was thinking of editing my post though, rather than 'cut out identity politics' perhaps 'less emphasis on identity politics would be better..

 

[Sweet Square]

You'll have to explain that one, sorry. Is it you?

I'll never be as cool as Nathan, sadly.

I was thinking of editing my post though, rather than 'cut out identity politics' perhaps 'less emphasis on identity politics would be better..

Its just amazing that the reaction to labour losing the last election has been older white guys tell black labour members to shut up(Identity politics is being used here as stand in for anti racist politics). The Blairites seems be having their gamer gate moment.

 

[Ubik]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[esmufc07]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

You carry on celebrating the worst loss in 80 odd years Richard.

 

[sullydnl]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Ugh.

 

[Dante]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

If this was the Caf in 2006, there'd be only only one response to that Tweet.

 

[711]

I'll never be as cool as Nathan, sadly.


Its just amazing that the reaction to labour losing the last election has been older white guys tell black labour members to shut up(Identity politics is being used here as stand in for anti racist politics). The Blairites seems be having their gamer gate moment.

You nicely illustrate my point. How was I addressing black members? I was addressing the party as whole. But you're still banging on about age and colour so I got nowhere with that one I see.

 

[esmufc07]

You nicely illustrate my point. How was I addressing black members? I was addressing the party as whole. But you're still banging on about age and colour so I got nowhere with that one I see.

But all old people are racist Tories I’m told.

 

[711]

But all old people are racist Tories I’m told.

Only white northern ones, have you learned nothing?

 

[Sweet Square]

You nicely illustrate my point. How was I addressing black members? I was addressing the party as whole. But you're still banging on about age and colour so I got nowhere with that one I see.

Its just amazing that the reaction to labour losing the last election has been older white guys tell black labour members to shut up(Identity politics is being used here as stand in for anti racist politics). The Blairites seems be having their gamer gate moment.

All I've seen so far from the labour needs to ''abandon identity politics'' lot, is a push to drop polices that were put forward by BAME labour members/MP's(The policy to teach the injustices of the British empire, for example) in favour of a nostalgia white working class politics(Which is literally just another form of identity politics, but its so engrained into peoples minds that they don't even see it).

 

[Dante]

In an age of Austerity, inclusiveness of minorities has led to a feeling of rejection of the majority. There isn't a single part of that that isn't regrettable, but it's the sad reality we're living in.

If Labour want any hope, they need to play the Realpolitik game. If the last few elections have taught us anything, it's that the British electorate don't want a broad church right now. Only once they've improved their own lot, will they start caring about people who look different from them. I agree that Labour can only do that if they change their message to be less vocal on identity politics.

 

[Sweet Square]

Thread

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[711]

All I've seen so far from the labour needs to ''abandon identity politics'' lot, is a push to drop polices that were put forward by BAME labour members/MP's(The policy to teach the injustices of the British empire, for example) in favour of a nostalgia white working class politics(Which is literally just another form of identity politics, but its engrained into peoples minds that they don't even see it).

I'm not sure which lot you're putting me in to, but less emphasis on the evils of empire, class, colour and age would be a step forward to connecting with the electorate as whole, yes. People don't like to be pigeonholed into categories, they want to be regarded as individuals.

 

[horsechoker]

 

[Honest John]

Thread

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Let the Tories run the NHS into the ground and all the over 65's will die. Then Labour will get voted in to fix the NHS and increase life expectancy and then get voted out again by those pesky over-65's.

 

[Drifter]

Thread

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Unless their pensions are to be affected .What else do they care about at this stage.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Great start to winning back the northern vote. Call them all racists.

Was it @Classical Mechanic who said 'cut out the identity politics'? Whoever it was is right anyway, this constant categorisation is turning voters away from Labour in shedloads. They are bored shitless by it at best. Talk to women and 'people of colour' that aren't in the leftie bubble and half of those are turned off or insulted by it as well.

Sorry but that’s the sad reality. You simply cannot change the mentality of a lifetime.

 

[Sweet Square]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date