Comparing Ole’s and Klopp’s first 18 months

[Florida Man]

Edit: the point of this thread is to highlight why it’s absurd to compare these two and have a discussion that would put the comparison to bed. I keep seeing one liners in other discussions that invoke Klopp as a means of justifying giving Ole time. So I thought it would be useful to have it elaborated on to get it through their heads.

—

Points and place in table at the start of their tenure:

Liverpool: 12/10th
United: 26/6th

Points and place in table at the end of first half season:

Liverpool: 60/8th
United: 66/6th

Points and place in table at the end of first full season:

Liverpool: 76/4th
United: TBD (currently 31/5th)

Notable first half season accomplishments:

Liverpool: Europa League Final (loss to Sevilla)
United: Champions League QF (loss to Barcelona)

Some commonly made points:

Ole In: Klopp would have been sacked according to the same standards the Ole Out brigade has on Ole.
Ole Out: You could see clear improvements with Klopp’s tactics despite the results.

So I’ll leave the rest to the floor. Is what Ole is doing now tactics, personnel, and results-wise comparable to what Klopp did? I’d like to hear thecopinions of Liverpool fans too, especially anyone who had serious doubts about Klopp after some poor results.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Jörgen Klopp and Liverpool after 18 games into first full season:

40 points - 2nd in league

OGS and United after 18 games into first full season:

25 points - 8th in league.

The opinions of Liverpool fans will be similar to the opinions of United fans during the 90's and 00's on the RAWK goes into meltdown thread, in fact Florida Man, I'd imagine they are over there pissing themselves at you right now.
Klopp would never have been sacked for having a fecking brilliant start to his first full season, and neither Ole nor Klopp were ever gonna get judged on the half seasons they took over midway through the season.

Please guys, stop doing it to yourself. Klopp took over a worse side and didn't get the bounce Ole did, but their first full seasons so far are vastly different. Let's just cross out fingers and hope like hell that this nice spell of form continues and that we can end the season in the top 4, then we can possibly start to do some comparisons.

 

[Florida Man]

Jörgen Klopp and Liverpool after 18 games into first full season:

40 points - 2nd in league

OGS and United after 18 games into first full season:

25 points - 8th in league.

Please guys, stop doing it to yourself. Klopp took over a worse side and didn't get the bounce Ole did, but their first full seasons so far are vastly different.
Klopp would never have been sacked for having a fecking brilliant start to his first full season, and neither Ole nor Klopp were ever gonna get judged on the half seasons they took over midway through the season.

When researching the points, I saw a bit about how Liverpool had their best start in years during Klopp’s first full season in 2016/17.

 

[Mickson]

Jörgen Klopp and Liverpool after 18 games into first full season:

40 points - 2nd in league

OGS and United after 18 games into first full season:

25 points - 8th in league.

Please guys, stop doing it to yourself. Klopp took over a worse side and didn't get the bounce Ole did, but their first full seasons so far are vastly different.
Klopp would never have been sacked for having a fecking brilliant start to his first full season, and neither Ole nor Klopp were ever gonna get judged on the half seasons they took over midway through the season.

Yes, and compare a manager who has been relegated with Cardiff and spent ten years in Norway to a manager who won Bundesliga and played CL-final.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

When researching the points, I saw a bit about how Liverpool had their best start in years during Klopp’s first full season in 2016/17.

Well there you go. We can try comparing Ole and spouting garbage that Klopp would've been sacked by some on here, but do we really believe any United fan would have been asking for Ole's head in December if we were 2nd at Christmas on 40 points?

 

[charlenefan]

Klopp was loved by Liverpool fans before he'd even taken charge of a game, I suspect at the time Liverpool probably couldn't believe their luck that they'd got a manager of his pedigree after years of Dalglish, Hodgson and Rodgers and thus was always going to be given time, 70% of the battle Ole has is that he was in charge when Cardiff was relegated

I see a lot of similarities in Klopp start to Ole's, some great wins against the better sides let down by results against the lesser ones but like I say Ole will never get the same support as Klopp did because Ole has never won the Bundesliga

 

[432JuanMata]

Seriously give it a rest. Ole still has a lot to prove to keep his job, Klopp is one of the best managers in the world

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yes, and compare a manager who has been relegated with Cardiff and spent ten years in Norway to a manager who won Bundesliga and played CL-final.

Ignore all that though as it's besides the point, the point is, neither manager was getting judged on their first half season and Klopp's start to his first full season was superb... as if anyone would've been asking for the sack if Ole had managed that.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Klopp was loved by Liverpool fans before he'd even taken charge of a game.

Unlike Ole who was what? Hated.

Ole had the vast majority of us onboard quickly, and those who were unsure quickly jumped on the Ole wheel after that blistering start.

 

[charlenefan]

Jörgen Klopp and Liverpool after 18 games into first full season:

40 points - 2nd in league

OGS and United after 18 games into first full season:

25 points - 8th in league.

The opinions of Liverpool fans will be similar to the opinions of United fans during the 90's and 00's on the RAWK goes into meltdown thread, in fact Florida Man, I'd imagine they are over there pissing themselves at you right now.
Klopp would never have been sacked for having a fecking brilliant start to his first full season, and neither Ole nor Klopp were ever gonna get judged on the half seasons they took over midway through the season.

Please guys, stop doing it to yourself. Klopp took over a worse side and didn't get the bounce Ole did, but their first full seasons so far are vastly different. Let's just cross out fingers and hope like hell that this nice spell of form continues and that we can end the season in the top 4, then we can possibly start to do some comparisons.

Did he? He took over a side who a year and a bit earlier almost won the title and had the likes of Coutinho and Firmino already there.

 

[L1nk]

The delusion on this forum reaches new heights everyday somehow, unbelievable

The situation isn't even remotely comparable because prior to Liverpool Klopp had actual tangible progress and success at Dortmund and Mainz...

Ole will never be as good as Klopp, he wasn't prior to this and he won't be anytime soon, if ever. You can come back to this post in X amount of years and quote me on it.

 

[Florida Man]

Well there you go. We can try comparing Ole and spouting garbage that Klopp would've been sacked by some on here, but do we really believe any United fan would have been asking for Ole's head in December if we were 2nd at Christmas on 40 points?

Was Liverpool really at 40 points and 2nd in Christmas 2016? (Too lazy to look)

 

[charlenefan]

Unlike Ole who was what? Hated.

Ole came in as a caretaker so I expect most were indifferent given they assumed he'd be a temporary appointment

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Did he? He took over a side who a year and a bit earlier almost won the title and had the likes of Coutinho and Firmino already there.

And lost Suarez their best player (and best player in the league by a mile), + Sterling and Gerrard.

They were also in a much worse position in the league than United when Ole took over. And United finished 2nd too, just months before.

Anyway... it's all daft, RAWK are pissing themselves at this. I'll ask you the same question:

Do we really believe any United fan would have been asking for Ole's head in December if we were 2nd at Christmas on 40 points @charlenefan?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Was Liverpool really at 40 points and 2nd in Christmas 2016? (Too lazy to look)

Yes. Hence why the thread is a bit silly.

Would anyone want Ole sacked if he was on 40 points at xmas?

 

[charlenefan]

Do we really believe any United fan would have been asking for Ole's head in December if we were 2nd at Christmas on 40 points @charlenefan?

I wouldn't put anything past the United fanbase

How far off top were Liverpool then out of interest because ya know we're only 9 points off 40 points ourselves now

 

[Florida Man]

Seriously give it a rest. Ole still has a lot to prove to keep his job, Klopp is one of the best managers in the world

It’s a common comparison that keeps getting made on here so I wanted to get it all in a thread and detail some elaborated comparisons. My belief is that you can’t compare a world class manager with a novice but those who are making a point about giving Ole time really need to know what made Klopp’s time different.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I wouldn't put anything past the United fanbase

How far off top were Liverpool then out of interest because ya know we're only 9 points off 40 points ourselves now

Point 1. Don't be daft.

Liverpool were on 44 points after 20 games pal.

 

[Halftrack]

Klopp took over a worse side

The comparisons are daft, but I will have to respectfully disagree with this bit.

 

[Florida Man]

Yes. Hence why the thread is a bit silly.

Would anyone want Ole sacked if he was on 40 points at xmas?

The purpose of this thread is to hopefully put this comparison to bed by having this explained in detail in one thread.

 

[charlenefan]

Point 1. Don't be daft.

Liverpool were on 44 points after 20 games pal.

What do you mean don't be daft? There are people on here wanting us to loose games so the manager will be sacked. Think about that for a second before you call me daft 'pal'

 

[Harry190]

Not sure it's gonna last with Klopp. Top manager, but they had the same thing at Dortmund when he was around. Everything was great until it went sour.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The comparisons are daft, but I will have to respectfully disagree with this bit.

Fair enough, the table the season before they took over tells a different story but it matters not though, as I say, no-one judges either on their first part-season.

But Klopp's second season start was miles better than Ole so any idea "people on here would've wanted him sacked" is complete and utter nonsense because no manager gets sacked after picking up 40 points in their first 18 games in their first full season.

 

[Florida Man]

Not sure it's gonna last with Klopp. Top manager, but they had the same thing at Dortmund when he was around. Everything was great until it went sour.

You can say that about any successful manager these days. The SAF and Wenger type tenures are likely over in my opinion.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

What do you mean don't be daft? There are people on here wanting us to loose games so the manager will be sacked. Think about that for a second before you call me daft 'pal'

Come on mate? No-one, absolutely no-one would want Ole sacked if he'd picked up 44 points in 20 games.

No-one. You're making a point for the sake of argument that you must know isn't true.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Sometimes it's ok to just say:

"I've now seen the stats and yeah, Klopp was never getting fired or even murmors of it after that incredible start to his first full season."

You don't have to keep going down the Klopp path to try and defend Ole as it only ever (at this point) looks bad for him. By the end of the season though, we might be 4th and who cares about points total then, then if you really wanna roll out your Klopp comparisons... be our guest.

 

[Bojan11]

Not sure it's gonna last with Klopp. Top manager, but they had the same thing at Dortmund when he was around. Everything was great until it went sour.

Yeah because it lasts with every manager now.

If Klopp finishes 16th next season with Pool, but leaves with a champions league and their first league title in 30 years it doesn’t matter how it goes sour.

 

[andersj]

Klopp is one of a kind. In a league of his own. Please dont compare them.

If Klopp becomes the benchmark we will fire a lot of coaches going foward.

 

[charlenefan]

Come on mate? No-one, absolutely no-one would want Ole sacked if he'd picked up 44 points in 20 games.

No-one. You're making a point for the sake of argument that you must know isn't true.

A minute ago it was 40 points at Christmas, we're 9 points off that so not a great deal in that. Now it's 44 in 20 so what's the question?

Either way the answer as to whether people would want Ole sacked or not with that totally depends on how far they are off top spot (a question I asked but you've ignored). Ultimately Klopp finished that season 4th if Ole does that with a worse side (because right now we are a worse side than the one Klopp had in his first full season) then the end result is the same and the only thing left to judge is if you've seen sufficient less tangible improvement or not

 

[TrustInOle]

That's the mostlaughable point made here. Klopp took over a worse squad? The state of the team we had last year and this year is barely enough to challenge for top 4, that is what we are seeing. I am sure Klopp didn't take over from a manager who literally collapsed the squad he managed in his last 3 jobs, making his best work of United. An underachieving, highly overpaid individuals that needed/ need moving on, that some people think you can click fingers and they are magically gone. Also worth noting the work put into the background before Liverpool got Klopp, whilst we have only this summer started to see sense.

Klopp came into the job also having a higher ceiling of experience that would have only helped, whilst our manager is still learning the top of the pyramid on football, whilst rebuilding a rotten squad and promoting and nurturing the youth we have developed and playing the most entertaining football Ove seen at the club in 6 years. We have a squad and a manager both young and learning their tradeat this level and still doing okay.

Its like blasphemy these days but patience is a must, because the last thing this club needs is another reset and manager merry go round. We have spent 6 years trying this, how about we spend 2 trying to have patience and actually rebuilding with a long term plan. This instant success crap and slagging of the managers is what I expect from the blueplastic lot.

The comparisons are daft, but I will have to respectfully disagree with this bit.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

A minute ago it was 40 points at Christmas, we're 9 points off that so not a great deal in that. Now it's 44 in 20 so what's the question?

Bloody hell mate it's not rocket science. At Christmas they'd played 18 and had 40 points, we had 25 points after 18.

Then you said "we're 9 points off 40 now" but obviously now we've played 20 games. You do know it'd be unfair to say in February, "well we're on 50 points now so we're better". ha ha.

After 20 games (to be clear, where we are now @charlenefan), Liverpool were 5 points off the top.

 

[charlenefan]

Bloody hell mate it's not rocket science. At Christmas they'd played 18 and had 40 points, we had 25 points after 18.

Then you said "we're 9 points off 40 now" but obviously now we've played 20 games. You do know it'd be unfair to say in February, "well we're on 50 points now so we're better". ha ha.

It's not rocket science no so word your questions properly in future, your original question was 40 points at Christmas, not 40 points after x amount of games. I've got no idea how many games Liverpool had played by Christmas Day 2016 vs how many we'd played by Christmas Day 2019

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It's not rocket science no so word your questions properly in future, your original question was 40 points at Christmas, not 40 points after x amount of games. I've got no idea how many games Liverpool had played by Christmas Day 2016 vs how many we'd played by Christmas Day 2019

You always play half the games before xmas pal, half of 36 is 18.

 

[Gasolin]

You always play half the games before xmas pal, half of 36 is 18.

36? We have 20 teams in the EPL no?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

36? We have 20 teams in the EPL no?

Sorry, the half way point is boxing day. Idiot me.

 

[Gasolin]

Sorry, the half way point is boxing day. Idiot me.

What I am trying to say is that half of 38 games = 19. So it's one game difference, give or take. Anyway, I can see why there are similarities mentioned between Ole and Klopp and it has nothing to do with points and all to do in the way the team currently plays and focuses on space, counter pressing, direct play and commitment with energy. I think we are copying the 2008 team way of playing, but it's very similar to the way Klopp has his team plays currently.

Surely you remember how everyone used to say we didn't deserve to win but we kept winning, that's because we went to fight for the ball at every single occasion, and that often resulted in other teams making mistakes and us exploiting it. However, we were not pretty, and pretty much very direct, especially after Ronaldo came on board. We are at that phase now, and it seems fitness is alright so we will see how that goes for us for the rest of the season.

 

[MrBest]

Did he? He took over a side who a year and a bit earlier almost won the title and had the likes of Coutinho and Firmino already there.

Pogba, marital and Rashford? Throw in Lukaku too if you must and Ander. The team Ole had was not horrendous, in fact it was probably better. It was the atmosphere at the club that was toxic. I am not a fan of Ole but i give him one bit of credit, the players do look more relaxed and they seem to be enjoying playing for United than they did a year ago. I really think he has made a positive impact on culture. Shame after one year he has no plan after counter attacking.

 

[Gasolin]

Pogba, marital and Rashford? Throw in Lukaku too if you must and Ander. The team Ole had was not horrendous, in fact it was probably better. It was the atmosphere at the club that was toxic. I am not a fan of Ole but i give him one bit of credit, the players do look more relaxed and they seem to be enjoying playing for United than they did a year ago. I really think he has made a positive impact on culture. Shame after one year he has no plan after counter attacking.

Did you watch the games or? It is not just about counter attacking but absolutely about playing direct. However, when we have to, we pass the ball.

 

[Kostur]

That's the mostlaughable point made here. Klopp took over a worse squad?

Of course he did, I hate the stupid feck but it's really silly to suggest otherwise.

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

"Comparing Ole’s and Klopp’s first 18 months"

Ole has been at United for 18 months already??
Time flies...
Or, maybe I'm missing something