Get rid of VAR NOW! We want our game back! (...or not, some are happy)

[sullydnl]

I can understand Chelsea fans complaining but not about the offside. We're not talking about one of the millimetre calls. It was a clear offside, one that would have been outside any marginal buffer you'd care to implement. Had that goal been allowed pre-Var we would have been complaining about it, because it shouldn't have stood. That simple.

Any criticism should be focused on Maguire getting away without a red card. Not on goals that should have been disallowed being disallowed.

 

[SilentWitness]

As usual it is not the system that is being questioned but it is the people who are utilising it. VAR would and should work but it isn't under the current format and utilisation. It isn't fair to have the system in place when it is clear that the people who are officiating with it are severely undertrained with the system and the decision making required.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I think they got it right. Although the Maguire one is hard. No kick, but he should have been able to hold his leg down more.

 

[Mb194dc]

I can understand Chelsea fans complaining but not about the offside. We're not talking about one of the millimetre calls. It was a clear offside, one that would have been outside any marginal buffer you'd care to implement. Had that goal been allowed pre-Var we would have been complaining about it, because it shouldn't have stood. That simple.

Any criticism should be focused on Maguire getting away without a red card. Not on goals that should have been disallowed being disallowed.

VR shouldn't make the decision, both on the red card and on the Zouma goal.

It should be the referee. If the ref has a look and makes those calls I would accept them.

The premier league are not following the guidelines on how VAR is meant to be used and the VR implementation of it is totally different to VAR everywhere else. Could FIFA/IFAB put a stop to it and sanction the FA/PL/PGMOL?

The premier league is not the same game that is being played everywhere else now.

That is the issue as I see it and it goes a lot deeper than just the game yesterday. The season is a write off with all the ridiculous inconsistencies in how VR is being used, when VR is not even actually allowed in the laws of the game, see page 138, it's quite clear in the premier league "The final decision is always taken by the referee, " is not happening, it's being dictated and they're being forced to agree with whatever VR tells them:

http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/794/103357_200519_LotG_201920_EN_Booklet.pdf

 

[sullydnl]

VR shouldn't make the decision, both on the red card and on the Zouma goal.

It should be the referee. If the ref has a look and makes those calls I would accept them.

The premier league are not following the guidelines on how VAR is meant to be used and the VR implementation of it is totally different to VAR everywhere else. Could FIFA/IFAB put a stop to it and sanction the FA/PL/PGMOL?

The premier league is not the same game that is being played everywhere else now.

That is the issue as I see it and it goes a lot deeper than just the game yesterday. The season is a write off with all the ridiculous inconsistencies in how VR is being used, when VR is not even actually allowed in the laws of the game, see page 138, it's quite clear in the premier league "The final decision is always taken by the referee, " is not happening, it's being dictated and they're being forced to agree with whatever VR tells them:

http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/794/103357_200519_LotG_201920_EN_Booklet.pdf

Agree with the bold. It would lead to better decisions being made.

Seems strange to me that so much attention is payed to the offside calls (which are at least consistently applied) rather than the subjective calls (which are erratic as hell).

 

[spiriticon]

All VAR does is to transfer the fan hate of referees unto itself.

We used to have people blaming refs for shit calls, now instead of that we have people blaming VAR for shit calls I suppose in the grand scheme of things it's a good thing. It's a layer of protection for referees on the field.

 

[A-man]

VR shouldn't make the decision, both on the red card and on the Zouma goal.

It should be the referee. If the ref has a look and makes those calls I would accept them.

The premier league are not following the guidelines on how VAR is meant to be used and the VR implementation of it is totally different to VAR everywhere else. Could FIFA/IFAB put a stop to it and sanction the FA/PL/PGMOL?

The premier league is not the same game that is being played everywhere else now.

That is the issue as I see it and it goes a lot deeper than just the game yesterday. The season is a write off with all the ridiculous inconsistencies in how VR is being used, when VR is not even actually allowed in the laws of the game, see page 138, it's quite clear in the premier league "The final decision is always taken by the referee, " is not happening, it's being dictated and they're being forced to agree with whatever VR tells them:

http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/794/103357_200519_LotG_201920_EN_Booklet.pdf

Your post makes a lot of sense. There was an article in a Swedish paper yesterday, where they visited VAR referee training in Denmark and interviewed Michael Johansen, who is head of Danish Football association's referees and VAR instructor. Several times in the interview, he got back to how poorly it works in the PL and how it is used in the wrong way. Here are some of the things he said, with my own translation:

[VAR in] England is exactly how it shouldn't be. It should be obvious and clear things that are corrected, not millimeter justice.
The referee always takes the first and last decision.
It should not be like in England where goal celebrations are interrupted because there was an offside by a centimetre. It should be obvious mistakes, or it will just be ridiculous. If an incident can be discussed, it is probably not a case for VAR.


He also said there have some incidents in Europe where the VAR bus has been thrown over by angry supporters, so now they paint them like ambulances.

 

[sullydnl]

Your post makes a lot of sense. There was an article in a Swedish paper yesterday, where they visited VAR referee training in Denmark and interviewed Michael Johansen, who is head of Danish Football association's referees and VAR instructor. Several times in the interview, he got back to how poorly it works in the PL and wrong it is used. Here are some of the things he said, with my own translation:

[VAR in] England is exactly how it shouldn't be. It should be obvious and clear things that are corrected, not millimeter justice.
The referee always takes the first and last decision.
It should not be like in England where goal celebrations are interrupted because there was an offside by a centimetre. It should be obvious mistakes, or it will just be ridiculous. If an incident can be discussed, it is probably not a case for VAR.


He also said there have some incidents in Europe where the VAR bus has been thrown over by angry supporters, so now they paint them like ambulances.

In fairness to the PL, the General Secretary of IFAB explicitly said in January that offside is offside, even if it's only be a CM, and that this is how the system should be used. Other European leagues with this offside system have the exact same narrow calls.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/english...ar-even-to-the-tightest-of-margins-ifab-chief

 

[Mb194dc]

In fairness to the PL, the General Secretary of IFAB explicitly said in January that offside is offside, even if it's only be a CM, and that this is how the system should be used.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/english...ar-even-to-the-tightest-of-margins-ifab-chief

True, if they draw the line and it's offside, it's offside, very simple. Like Giroud yesterday.

It's the forensic analysis bit they're referring to. E.g, first line drawn shows onside, then VAR spend 5 minutes checking every body part and angle to try and find some part of the player that is perhaps 1cm or so offside. Despite the potential 38cm margin of error in the technology. Can recall this happening Norwich v Spurs I think and probably other premier league games.

Nowhere else in the world does this, if the initial line shows onside, they just pass it. Which is why you don't see 5 minute Offside VAR stoppages in anywhere else except the premier league.

In fact how its applied varies wildly between premier league games, you have this Spurs Norwich call as one end of the spectrum, and the Salah call v City at Anfield at the other. In the latter, they didn't even bother checking, just waived on, in the former, 5 minute stoppage as mentioned above. Then in Salah incident, some non official VAR image shown by Sky later (La liga referees threatened to sue the broadcaster (Mediaset) for doing this and calling VAR in to question because the broadcaster image was "false")

Totally ludicrous.

 

[MadDogg]

If by 'a good foot' you mean literally his good foot, then yes it was off.

Was anyone crying out for this kind of millimeter perfect offside rule before VAR showed up? If that had happened last year, would you have been screaming about how unfair it was that the goal wasn't disallowed? No of course you wouldn't, because the only place we've ever given that much of a feck about precision was in goal line technology, where a ball crossing the line or not actually matters.

That's a hell of a lot more than a millimetre. If the VAR can put two lines down, one for the defender and one for the attacker, and it's obvious that the attacker is offside then of course it should be disallowed. Situations like the above have always pissed off fans when the footage has been replayed and shown that it should have been disallowed. Likewise if the referee on the field said it was offside but the VAR checks it and sees that it was actually onside by a good 6-7 inches, of course he should then change the decision to a goal.

Now if it actually is a millimetre or so and the VAR needs to spend a couple of minutes trying to figure out if the attackers right shoulder is fractionally ahead of the defenders left knee, then that is where it's ridiculous if Var overturns the decision (whichever way it went). If it's that close, the VAR should stay the hell out of it.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I don't like VAR, at all. It ruins the rhythm and flow of the game and wrecks the atmosphere in stadiums.

It benefited Utd tonight, obviously, but I loathe VAR.

1 ref, 2 linesmen, and a ref behind each goal is fine.

Same

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

That's a hell of a lot more than a millimetre. If the VAR can put two lines down, one for the defender and one for the attacker, and it's obvious that the attacker is offside then of course it should be disallowed. Situations like the above have always pissed off fans when the footage has been replayed and shown that it should have been disallowed. Likewise if the referee on the field said it was offside but the VAR checks it and sees that it was actually onside by a good 6-7 inches, of course he should then change the decision to a goal.

Now if it actually is a millimetre or so and the VAR needs to spend a couple of minutes trying to figure out if the attackers right shoulder is fractionally ahead of the defenders left knee, then that is where it's ridiculous if Var overturns the decision (whichever way it went). If it's that close, the VAR should stay the hell out of it.

The bold is not true. Nobody used to really give a damn about these decisions. You could shrug them off.

I mean, yes, he’s offside by review, but I’d still rather not see a review and have a margin of error understood and accepted.

I realise how silly that sounds. But I firmly believe that emotion and spectacle trumps absolute certainty in football.

The debates this year after games have without question been worse than in years before. I don’t think VAR has been additive.

 

[InterFan1998]

The Maguire incident is a clear red imo - not even a debate. As sad as it is, I'm sure the player's background is taken into context when referees make decisions - ie. English player no card. Korean player - straight red.

 

[sullydnl]

That's a hell of a lot more than a millimetre. If the VAR can put two lines down, one for the defender and one for the attacker, and it's obvious that the attacker is offside then of course it should be disallowed. Situations like the above have always pissed off fans when the footage has been replayed and shown that it should have been disallowed. Likewise if the referee on the field said it was offside but the VAR checks it and sees that it was actually onside by a good 6-7 inches, of course he should then change the decision to a goal.

Now if it actually is a millimetre or so and the VAR needs to spend a couple of minutes trying to figure out if the attackers right shoulder is fractionally ahead of the defenders left knee, then that is where it's ridiculous if Var overturns the decision (whichever way it went). If it's that close, the VAR should stay the hell out of it.

How?

If you make "too close to call" an objective measurement then that gets looked at in millimetre detail instead.

If you make "too close to call" a subjective decision on the VAR's part then you get more inconsistent decisions, more wrong decisions, more accusations of bias and the broadcaster (and the clubs themselves) using their own tech to highlight incorrect calls to fans anyway, all of which prompts a new slew of complaints to replace the ones you got just got rid of.

 

[limerickcitykid]

The bold is not true. Nobody used to really give a damn about these decisions. You could shrug them off.

I mean, yes, he’s offside by review, but I’d still rather not see a review and have a margin of error understood and accepted.

I realise how silly that sounds. But I firmly believe that emotion and spectacle trumps absolute certainty in football.

The debates this year after games have without question been worse than in years before. I don’t think VAR has been additive.

Not true according to who, you? There are quite literally thousands and thousands of posts on this forum, reddit, twitter etc. with proof that people will complain about tight offside calls that were wrong before VAR was introduced. The biggest moment in my country's history is a goal being incorrectly ruled offside. 13 years on and we still remember it and in 13 more years we will still remember. What no one will remember is Giroud being correctly ruled offside.

You'd rather offside goals be given. No logic involved.

Nothing has happened to the emotion or spectacle, an offside goal was called offside. United fans were emotionally happy and Chelsea fans were emotionally not. Or do emotions only come into play when offside goals are allowed?

The debates are in no way worse other than being incredibly retarded like allowing offside goals just because. So actually you're correct, the debates are without question worse because they are entirely stupid.

 

[MikeKing]

The debates are in no way worse other than being incredibly retarded like allowing offside goals just because. So actually you're correct, the debates are without question worse because they are entirely stupid.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Not true according to who, you? There are quite literally thousands and thousands of posts on this forum, reddit, twitter etc. with proof that people will complain about tight offside calls that were wrong before VAR was introduced. The biggest moment in my country's history is a goal being incorrectly ruled offside. 13 years on and we still remember it and in 13 more years we will still remember. What no one will remember is Giroud being correctly ruled offside.

You'd rather offside goals be given. No logic involved.

Nothing has happened to the emotion or spectacle, an offside goal was called offside. United fans were emotionally happy and Chelsea fans were emotionally not. Or do emotions only come into play when offside goals are allowed?

The debates are in no way worse other than being incredibly retarded like allowing offside goals just because. So actually you're correct, the debates are without question worse because they are entirely stupid.

I’m a Romantic. I value things differently to you. To me, the game felt better, pre VAR intervention.

I’d far rather accept human error in the moment than invite discussions of human error after minutes of delay.

I appreciate your position but I can’t get behind it.

 

[fil1542]

VR shouldn't make the decision, both on the red card and on the Zouma goal.

It should be the referee. If the ref has a look and makes those calls I would accept them.

The premier league are not following the guidelines on how VAR is meant to be used and the VR implementation of it is totally different to VAR everywhere else. Could FIFA/IFAB put a stop to it and sanction the FA/PL/PGMOL?

The premier league is not the same game that is being played everywhere else now.

That is the issue as I see it and it goes a lot deeper than just the game yesterday. The season is a write off with all the ridiculous inconsistencies in how VR is being used, when VR is not even actually allowed in the laws of the game, see page 138, it's quite clear in the premier league "The final decision is always taken by the referee, " is not happening, it's being dictated and they're being forced to agree with whatever VR tells them:

http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/documents/794/103357_200519_LotG_201920_EN_Booklet.pdf

Great posting, I think this is absolutely spot on.

What made me really angry yesterday - in a match where every result was some kind of good for Tottenham, so that I didn´t really care - is that it was again showed how wrong VAR is used currently and how inconsistently the referees are. This was especially clear with the Maguire incident. Don´t get me wrong, I think it was absolutely the right call that VAR did not send him off, but I am still furious that Sonny got a red card for a very similar offense just a few weeks ago. I have no problem when different referees make different decisions, but VAR should definitely not re-referee games so the situation should be clear and obvious and, therefore, the decision should be always the same and not just the subjective opinion of one referee.

The decision for the Zouma goal was even more subjective and a case of re-refereeing the game instead of just correcting mistakes. For me it was no foul from Azpi because he was pushed first and the push against Williams was not that hard, but I read some very different opinions on this forum. That is okay because in football the rules are sometimes not absolutely clear and there can be different opinions on some incidents, but then it is definitely not a situation where VAR should interfere with the referee´s decision on the pitch and make the decision himself. This is why it is called Video Assistant Referee. Like Jose said recently in a press conference, they should apply the system to how it was introduced and VAR should just help the referee with big mistakes or they should rename ist and just call it VR because at the moment it is clearly the VR who is making all the important decisions himself.

At the contrary, I think the decision with the Giroud goal was fine because it was clear enough to see the offside even without the lines drawn. However, I can understand people who want to live with these kind of wrong decisions - since it was not a huge mistake from the assistant, but just a small margin - to not have taken emotions out of the game.

 

[bleedred]

The main problem I and many others have said over the last few years,is that they are pushing VAR and just winging it rather than pushing a tried, tested and refined option for the top level.

There are so many scenarios which have been discussed to death in this and other threads where VAR or the implementation of it is pointless.

People cannot say that it took many years in other sports for refinement and hence it would take the same for football. That's just idiotic. You have to learn from other sports and use it to refine your system, which neither the IFAB not individual leagues have done. They just thought we will implement it and go with the flow!

 

[Anustart89]

The main problem I and many others have said over the last few years,is that they are pushing VAR and just winging it rather than pushing a tried, tested and refined option for the top level.

There are so many scenarios which have been discussed to death in this and other threads where VAR or the implementation of it is pointless.

People cannot say that it took many years in other sports for refinement and hence it would take the same for football. That's just idiotic. You have to learn from other sports and use it to refine your system, which neither the IFAB not individual leagues have done. They just thought we will implement it and go with the flow!

They don't even need to look at other sports. They could've just taken any league in Europe and asked themselves "okay, what problems did they have in the beginning since they've had it for a few years now?"

"Well, in Germany, they didn't use the monitors and they didn't like that for reasons x so they made the refs go out and check for themselves and now they like it better"
"Ah, thanks. Then we should use the monitors".

They've reinvented the wheel and made it square. And then they say they have the best wheel makers in the world.

 

[Red_Aaron]

both goals were correctly ruled out for me, the push is clear as day and he's offside.

The maguire one is more contentious. I'm in the Roy Keane stable on this one, in modern football you can say he's lucky to still be on the pitch and given what we've seen this season in particular should've got a red. As far as the bigger picture goes though it's never a red really is it? nor are the majority of things players are booked or sent off for nowadays, call me an old man if you like but the game is being sanitised to within an inch of it's life and VAR certainly isn't helping with that. I remember a time when Alan Shearer could near on take off Neil Lennons head and he was rewarded with a world cup place for doing it!

I did chuckle at Lampard pointing out Maguire probably benefited from his status as an England player in the Refs mind, yeah Frank it's not like you ever played alongside a certain centre half who would get away with murder week-in week-out on account of his brave lion status is it!

 

[MadDogg]

How?

If you make "too close to call" an objective measurement then that gets looked at in millimetre detail instead.

If you make "too close to call" a subjective decision on the VAR's part then you get more inconsistent decisions, more wrong decisions, more accusations of bias and the broadcaster (and the clubs themselves) using their own tech to highlight incorrect calls to fans anyway, all of which prompts a new slew of complaints to replace the ones you got just got rid of.

I guess one way to do it would be that the VAR needs to be able to overrule the decision with 100% certainty within a certain amount of time. If it takes more than 30 seconds (change to whatever works best) from when they first start looking to be able to be 100% certain, then it's too close to be able to call.

 

[Teja]

both goals were correctly ruled out for me, the push is clear as day and he's offside.

I think Fred pushed the Chelsea player (Azpi?) who in turn pushed our defender, so treating one push as a foul but not the other seems inconsistent.

 

[Red_Aaron]

I think Fred pushed the Chelsea player (Azpi?) who in turn pushed our defender, so treating one push as a foul but not the other seems inconsistent.

Not really, football allows for a certain amount of contact and imo Fred's push was minimal and akin to the general hustle inside the box during set pieces. Azpis was a far more pronounced action and indeed had far greater affect on Williams than the push on him. The key for me was that Azpi still managed to make an attempt to flick on the ball and was therefore still in control of himself whereas Brandon is flat on his face and out of the game.

 

[Buchan]

Disgraceful decision there at Stamford Bridge. That’s a red card for Lo Celso all day long.

 

[AC1689]

It’s ruined the game completely. I’ve never felt so disenfranchised with football. I’m out. Really don’t feel like watching it anymore. It’s disgusting.

It’s not even VAR that’s the problem. It’s the effing imbeciles operating it. Incompetent officiating. I mean how hard is it to watch a replay and make the correct decision?!?

 

[bosnian_red]

That's probably the worst VAR feck up so far. And something you cant blame the system for, entirely what the system should be there for, yet the refs watching it somehow ignored it. Does his leg need to snap in half?

 

[ROFLUTION]

The chances of getting away with murder is higher when using VAR

 

[Zoo]

Those people at Stockley Park have a lot to answer for. Farcical use of VAR.

 

[Shark]

Another shocking decision from the clowns standing over VAR, as others stated it’s not the system itself that’s the problem. However out will come the “you just hate VAR and want to fuel your agenda” brigade soon enough.

 

[Fooza]

If the referees behind it are inept, you might as well get rid of it and let the pitch referee decide. Least then we get our game back and we can stop with the little toe being offside nonsense too.

 

[Jev]

Worst one so far. If the VAR refs are not gonna correct that to a red card, there's really no point to the system at all.

 

[Adisa]

I am for it totally. Anything that helps refs get a second look has my vote.

 

[VP89]

Not a red, people are just complaining for the sake of it now.

1) He was already in motion for a drag back
2) the defender himself never had control over the ball
3) It all happened in extremely close distance with little reaction time

Bunch of people here want to pretend like they know how it is to play football at fast pace and act like every incident is avoidable. That shit has happened to me on a Powerleague multiple times - it can happen FFS.

 

[sullydnl]

1) Clear red card, I thought.

2) Use the fecking pitchside monitors. They're right there ffs!

 

[Kag]

That, not the (correct) offside decisions, is the problem with VAR.

The Lo Celso challenge is a clear red card. Furthermore, Oliver should be looking at it. It’s ridiculous how the Premier League can get something that should be so simple, so badly wrong.

 

[UmbroDays]

They’ve just admitted they’ve made a mistake

Crazy!

Can they retrospectively give a red?

 

[Bojan11]

So now the refs saying they got it wrong on Lo Celso.

It’s not VAR. Its the idiots running it.

 

[Buchan]

Stockley Park just communicated they got the decision wrong.

What a clusterfeck.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

VAR have not admitted it should have been a red card.