Uighurs seek genocide charges against Beijing

[MadMike]

Called me overly progressive, but I don't think people converting for fear of extermination paints a good picture for humanity in the 21st century. One would hope this kind of stuff would have been left behind with the middle ages.

 

[Amar__]

Uighurs should definitely convert out of Islam if it serves their self interests. They're a turkic muslim culture and there are enough Muslims to carry forward their culture.

Yes. And they can become non-muslims by choice also. If its death or conversion the option to choose is conversion, even Islam says so provided in your heart you never converted.

You are discussing that as an option, in 21st century? Seriously? Is this the world we live in now?

 

[Synco]

Uighurs should convert to whatever the chinese want them to convert to. Under threat of life Islamic scriptures allows conversion out of islam. They shouldn't be expected to get exterminated for being muslims if no other muslim country gives a toss about them.

Uighurs should definitely convert out of Islam if it serves their self interests. They're a turkic muslim culture and there are enough Muslims to carry forward their culture.

Not sure how that's supposed to work, you can't give up your whole background just like that. (Most importantly, no one should be forced to do so in the first place.) There are plenty of people throughout history who chose their creed or political convictions over safety, or even survival.

There's also historical precedence that "conversion" (for the lack of a better word) isn't necessarily the end of paranoia against a group. After all, forced conversion means the converted are still suspicious of faking it, secretly remaining insubordinate, conspiring against authority, etc. Not a bet I'd take.

 

[ThatsGreat]

You are discussing that as an option, in 21st century? Seriously? Is this the world we live in now?

Depends on if you value preservation of a culture which isn't even unique more than human life.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

You are discussing that as an option, in 21st century? Seriously? Is this the world we live in now?

It is the same world we’ve always lived in. This is what happens when Authoritarianism goes unchecked, same as it ever has.

 

[Foxbatt]

The Chinese actions are abhorrent. This action actually started around 2017 or so.
The question also need to be asked why in 2017? A lot has got to do with Islamic Jihadism and especially the involvement of Chinese citizens. Then the statements of Islamic jihadists in targeting China.
An authoritarian state out of control is what is happening now.
It's a Muslim majority province and the Chinese fear terrorism inside China.
There is no country that would go to war over China over the Uighurs. They didn't against Myanmar.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Called me overly progressive, but I don't think people converting for fear of extermination paints a good picture for humanity in the 21st century. One would hope this kind of stuff would have been left behind with the middle ages.

They are not being asked to convert, rather the opposite, this is China's way of 'disarming' islamic influence. Some of these reeducation camps are comparable to Guantanamo Bay, there's been a few reports from the NYT about this. It is more of a cultural genocide.

 

[Tibs]

What can be done to help?

Serious. Contacting MPs, donations, social media reach....?

 

[Amar__]

Depends on if you value preservation of a culture which isn't even unique more than human life.

Oh, didn't realise Chinese get to decide what will other people do with their lives and that rest of the world is fine with that.

 

[V.O.]

What can be done to help?

Serious. Contacting MPs, donations, social media reach....?

Find a way that anybody with enough power could make money off of it.

 

[Amar__]

They are not being asked to convert, rather the opposite, this is China's way of 'disarming' islamic influence. Some of these reeducation camps are comparable to Guantanamo Bay, there's been a few reports from the NYT about this. It is more of a cultural genocide.

Cultural genocide involves the eradication and destruction of cultural artifacts, such as books, artworks, and structures, and the suppression of cultural activities that do not conform to the destroyer's notion of what is appropriate.

That's obviously not what this is, it's pretty much racism and typical genocide.

 

[Tibs]

Find a way that anybody with enough power could make money off of it.

Sliding into Jeff Bezos' DMs

 

[MadMike]

Cultural genocide involves the eradication and destruction of cultural artifacts, such as books, artworks, and structures, and the suppression of cultural activities that do not conform to the destroyer's notion of what is appropriate.

That's obviously not what this is, it's pretty much racism and typical genocide.

Oh they're doing that too. They are certainly suppressing cultural activities and been tearing down mosques based on comparisons of recent and older satellite photos. They're just not stopping there, that's all.

 

[Member 60376]

Depends on if you value preservation of a culture which isn't even unique more than human life.

Who decides the value? Can't believe what I'm seeing here. Its almost apologist behaviour in favour of the CCP.

 

[africanspur]

Who decides the value? Can't believe what I'm seeing here. Its almost apologist behaviour in favour of the CCP.

I think in fairness to those posters, they're not apologising at all for the CCP.

I think, as horrible as it may read, they're saying in a world where nobody can influence China, where even the Organisation of Islamic cooperation fall behind China like lapdogs and say nothing (in fact, commending China for their treatment of Muslims and other minorities) and where China seems intent on, at the very least, complete cultural and political assimilation of the Uighurs...what can they do?

Nobody is going to war for them and it doesn't even particularly seem that China leaves those who manage to escape alone so I guess those posters are saying...what's the realistic option for them as a group?

 

[syrian_scholes]

Depends on if you value preservation of a culture which isn't even unique more than human life.

I wonder if you'd have suggested that if they had any other relegion.

 

[africanspur]

I wonder if you'd have suggested that if they had any other relegion.

Yes I'm sure they would have. I don't really know why you're taking offence at this as if it is some kind of islamophobic comment, there is no indication of anything like that in this thread.

Even the countries you might expect to come to their defence due to a shared religion (OIC) or shared cultural heritage (Stans) are conspicuously silent or even praising China.

 

[syrian_scholes]

Yes I'm sure they would have. I don't really know why you're taking offence at this as if it is some kind of islamophobic comment, there is no indication of anything like that in this thread.

Even the countries you might expect to come to their defence due to a shared religion (OIC) or shared cultural heritage (Stans) are conspicuously silent or even praising China.

Because they are cowards, all the Muslim world leaders are cowards for letting this happen, I wasn't accusing the poster of being an islamophobe, I was genuinely asking if he'd suggest the same if they weren't Muslim.

 

[africanspur]

Because they are cowards, all the Muslim world leaders are cowards for letting this happen, I wasn't accusing the poster of being an islamophobe, I was genuinely asking if he'd suggest the same if they weren't Muslim.

I'd imagine he would. The original poster who suggested it (Vidared) is, I believe, a Muslim himself, and quoted an Islamic tradition in doing so. Its also a tradition that has happened at other times, including the Sephardic Jews in Spain for instance.

A more recent example may be the Sikhs of Afghanistan for instance, who received a disproportionate amount of the violence as minorities during the wars. Most of them chose to leave. Similarly to the Jews of Egypt/ other Arab countries in the 2nd half of the 20th century.

So those posters are, I think, saying in a world that clearly is not going/ not able to stop China, what are their options? Leave en masse, integrate completely or seemingly be integrated forcefully anyway.

Its a wretched situation.

 

[syrian_scholes]

I'd imagine he would. The original poster who suggested it (Vidared) is, I believe, a Muslim himself, and quoted an Islamic tradition in doing so. Its also a tradition that has happened at other times, including the Sephardic Jews in Spain for instance.

A more recent example may be the Sikhs of Afghanistan for instance, who received a disproportionate amount of the violence as minorities during the wars. Most of them chose to leave. Similarly to the Jews of Egypt/ other Arab countries in the 2nd half of the 20th century.

So those posters are, I think, saying in a world that clearly is not going/ not able to stop China, what are their options? Leave en masse, integrate completely or seemingly be integrated forcefully anyway.

Its a wretched situation.

I know that in Muslim teachings if your life is under threat you can convert, however I don't think that should not be an acceptable solution in 2020 especially when every country is claiming to be all about inclusivity and diversity, or does that talk ends when it comes to Muslims?

And frankly I don't care about historic examples, we live in a different time where humanity is trying to evolve beyond what happened before, why should every discussion go back to history?

 

[africanspur]

I know that in Muslim teachings if your life is under threat you can convert, however I don't think that should not be an acceptable solution in 2020 especially when every country is claiming to be all about inclusivity and diversity, or does that talk ends when it comes to Muslims?

And frankly I don't care about historic examples, we live in a different time where humanity is trying to evolve beyond what happened before, why should every discussion go back to history?

You're doing this again. You're in a thread where mostly non-Muslims are expressing their disgust that this is happening, to any group, in the 21st century. And taking every comment as a comment that wouldn't be said if it was happening to non-Muslims.

Vidared at least offered his thoughts on what he thinks they should/could do. A few others have asked whether other neighbouring countries may take them. They've tried to think of what this group might be able to do in the face of an unstoppable party political machine.

Rather than taking offence and always just assuming people are making comments because they're talking about Muslims, you could see that this is what some are trying to do.

I've seen literally no evidence in this thread that people are making the comments they are because they view Muslims as less than non-Muslims or Islam as less than other religions. In fact, as I said, the very first person who suggested that is Muslim himself.

Also, does China really claim to be inclusive? It is certainly a diverse country, more so than some might think. But it is a one party state, with an overwhelming Han Chinese majority. Its a country where free thought is not particularly encouraged, especially if that free thought is contradictory to what the CCP wants people to think.

 

[syrian_scholes]

You're doing this again. You're in a thread where mostly non-Muslims are expressing their disgust that this is happening, to any group, in the 21st century. And taking every comment as a comment that wouldn't be said if it was happening to non-Muslims.

Vidared at least offered his thoughts on what he thinks they should/could do. A few others have asked whether other neighbouring countries may take them. They've tried to think of what this group might be able to do in the face of an unstoppable party political machine.

Rather than taking offence and always just assuming people are making comments because they're talking about Muslims, you could see that this is what some are trying to do.

I've seen literally no evidence in this thread that people are making the comments they are because they view Muslims as less than non-Muslims or Islam as less than other religions. In fact, as I said, the very first person who suggested that is Muslim himself.

Also, does China really claim to be inclusive? It is certainly a diverse country, more so than some might think. But it is a one party state, with an overwhelming Han Chinese majority. Its a country where free thought is not particularly encouraged, especially if that free thought is contradictory to what the CCP wants people to think.

Again for some reason just because I'm expressing my views in this thread you think I'm criticizing people posting here, I'm criticizing world leaders and saying the proposed solution shouldn't be acceptable in this day and age, why are you blaming me for that?

 

[africanspur]

Again for some reason just because I'm expressing my views in this thread you think I'm criticizing people posting here, I'm criticizing world leaders and saying the proposed solution shouldn't be acceptable in this day and age, why are you blaming me for that?

Because you are criticising the opinions people have posted on this thread and asking, suggestively, whether they would ask that still if they were non-Muslims.

How can it be criticising world leaders when I don't think a single world leader has suggested that the Uighyurs do what has been suggested on this thread? In fact, the only countries commenting and censuring China over it have been non-Muslim countries.

I think we've seen in the recent past that the world, rightly or wrongly, is not going to get involved in genocide and mass violence. Rwanda, Myanmar, South Sudan, Darfur, CAR and Iraq very recently.

 

[syrian_scholes]

Because you are criticising the opinions people have posted on this thread and asking, suggestively, whether they would ask that still if they were non-Muslims.

How can it be criticising world leaders when I don't think a single world leader has suggested that the Uighyurs do what has been suggested on this thread? In fact, the only countries commenting and censuring China over it have been non-Muslim countries.

I think we've seen in the recent past that the world, rightly or wrongly, is not going to get involved in genocide and mass violence. Rwanda, Myanmar, South Sudan, Darfur, CAR and Iraq very recently.

No, my first post was a question to a poster that you've decided to interpret as taking offence when I was asking a genuine question, and that is would the suggestion even be there in this day and age if they weren't Muslims, of course I was auggesting the poster was in the wrong, rather suggesting that had the Uighurs not been Muslim the world would have done more to protect them.

then in my reply to you I was saying that the suggestion imo isn't acceptable and the world shouldn't accept it, and you again decided that I was taking offence at comments in this threads.

As for your point regarding Muslim countries silence, you do know most of those countries are 3rd world countries with dictators as leaders who have no regards to human life? So to me 1st world countries and world leaders shouldn't be counting on those countries to help out and instead take charge, because it's more about human life than relegion.

 

[africanspur]

No, my first post was a question to a poster that you've decided to interpret as taking offence when I was asking a genuine question, and that is would the suggestion even be there in this day and age if they weren't Muslims, of course I was auggesting the poster was in the wrong, rather suggesting that had the Uighurs not been Muslim the world would have done more to protect them.

then in my reply to you I was saying that the suggestion imo isn't acceptable and the world shouldn't accept it, and you again decided that I was taking offence at comments in this threads.

As for your point regarding Muslim countries silence, you do know most of those countries are 3rd world countries with dictators as leaders who have no regards to human life? So to me 1st world countries and world leaders shouldn't be counting on those countries to help out and instead take charge, because it's more about human life than relegion.

So like how the world helped in Rwanda? Or in Sudan, both North and South? Or the literal slave camps in Libya right now? What did the world do to intervene for these non-Muslim groups?

And yes I'm fully aware, my wife grew up in of these countries and is half Egyptian. Sisi is a total monster.

I'm interested in what you think the 1st world countries can do to stop China? And a realistic solution. Considering they've done nothing really to intervene even in countries infinitely weaker and less influential than China?

For what its worth, I don't think conversion or whatever is acceptable either.

But I don;t think these suggestions are because people view Muslims as less worthy. Its looking at the reality of a repressive one party state, with incredibly sophisticated surveillance technology, 2nd largest economy in the world and with sufficient global reach to ensure most countries nearby stay silent, as well as enough reach to be able to threaten the likes of Australia/ Canada/ UK with strong responses.

And having people wonder...what the hell can we do to influence such a country?

 

[syrian_scholes]

So like how the world helped in Rwanda? Or in Sudan, both North and South? Or the literal slave camps in Libya right now? What did the world do to intervene for these non-Muslim groups?

And yes I'm fully aware, my wife grew up in of these countries and is half Egyptian. Sisi is a total monster.

I'm interested in what you think the 1st world countries can do to stop China? And a realistic solution. Considering they've done nothing really to intervene even in countries infinitely weaker and less influential than China?

And that's on them right? We should expecting the leaders to do more rather than give them a free pass for letting these things happen is what I'm trying to say.

And honestly I don't have the answers, I understand how strong China is, however those in power should be expected to intervene rather than just saying 'oh they haven't intervened before so it's fine', we should aim to do better rather than repeat the same mistakes shouldn't we? And I don't claim to have the answer but I also don't believe "just convert" should be the answer.

Maybe applying economic pressure on China might help instead of accepting it, and again it's up to world leaders to find the suitable solution, they were elected to better the world, it's their job.

 

[ThatsGreat]

I wonder if you'd have suggested that if they had any other relegion.

No I wouldn't have if Uighurs shared a religion which is unique to them in their interpretation of God and ways of approaching Him and extinguishing that religion would lead to the loss of a singular way of thinking then I would say stick to that religion. As it stands they're muslims, there are 1.8 billion muslims following islamic practices. The priority for the Uighurs has to be to save their lives. They can revert to Islam when the CCP falls. The religion will survive without them.

 

[syrian_scholes]

No I wouldn't have if Uighurs shared a religion which is unique to them in their interpretation of God and ways of approaching Him and extinguishing that religion would lead to the loss of a singular way of thinking then I would say stick to that religion. As it stands they're muslims, there are 1.8 billion muslims following islamic practices. The priority for the Uighurs has to be to save their lives. They can revert to Islam when the CCP falls. The religion will survive without them.

It's not about relegion survival though is it? It's about personal beliefs, of course I wouldn't blame them if they chose to do it, however I'd rather someone offer them an escape route so they don't have to lose their culture and beliefs.

 

[ThatsGreat]

It's not about relegion survival though is it? It's about personal beliefs, of course I wouldn't blame them if they chose to do it, however I'd rather someone offer them an escape route so they don't have to lose their culture and beliefs.

Sure, thats the first preference.

 

[Invictus]

And that's on them right? We should expecting the leaders to do more rather than give them a free pass for letting these things happen is what I'm trying to say.

And honestly I don't have the answers, I understand how strong China is, however those in power should be expected to intervene rather than just saying 'oh they haven't intervened before so it's fine', we should aim to do better rather than repeat the same mistakes shouldn't we? And I don't claim to have the answer but I also don't believe "just convert" should be the answer.

Maybe applying economic pressure on China might help instead of accepting it, and again it's up to world leaders to find the suitable solution, they were elected to better the world, it's their job.

To be fair, some of the suggestions in this post are not grounded in reality. The entire situation is no doubt horrifying (particularly from the perspective of the oppressed), but wishing for anything beyond some minor posturing or sternly worded official complaints is fantastical — and “world leaders” are unlikely to intervene when most major nations would have no tangible gains from the theoretical enterprise...for all the talk of committing to abstractions like right and good, money and geopolitical ambition is what ultimately matters — that's the unfortunate and inconvenient truth.

Additionally, this poses no genuine existential threat to them, which throws another spanner in works as the groundswell of public support will be diluted. Why would they risk a downturn in their own economies by applying economic pressure on a powerhouse like China...especially in these precarious times, or risk the lives of their people in a series of extensive military interventions half-way across the world in something that might just trigger World War III in worst case scenarios — when on the basis of historical precedents, committing mass-atrocities and genocides are considered internal squabbles and no big deals as long as the most robust nations are not directly and immediately impacted — that's the way things have worked in the past (and will likely work in the future as well unless humanity as a whole becomes more empathetic and major institutions of power have a change of direaction/heart).

Realistically, you can only hope that this de-escalates and doesn't turn into a contemporary version of the East Timor or Rwandan or Khmer Rouge genocides or so on (where significant chunks of specific ethnic populations were outright butchered), that is what @africanspur has alluded to previously I think.

 

[syrian_scholes]

To be fair, some of the suggestions in this post are not grounded in reality. The entire situation is no doubt horrifying (particularly from the perspective of the oppressed), but wishing for anything beyond some minor posturing or sternly worded official complaints is fantastical — and “world leaders” are unlikely to intervene when most major nations would have no tangible gains from the theoretical enterprise...for all the talk of committing to abstractions like right and good, money and geopolitical ambition is what ultimately matters — that's the unfortunate and inconvenient truth.

Additionally, this poses no genuine existential threat to them, which throws another spanner in works as the groundswell of public support will be diluted. Why would they risk a downturn in their own economies by applying economic pressure on a powerhouse like China...especially in these precarious times, or risk the lives of their people in a series of extensive military interventions half-way across the world in something that might just trigger World War III in worst case scenarios — when on the basis of historical precedents, committing mass-atrocities and genocides are considered internal squabbles and no big deals as long as the most robust nations are not directly and immediately impacted — that's the way things have worked in the past (and will likely work in the future as well unless humanity as a whole becomes more empathetic and major institutions of power have a change of direaction/heart).

Realistically, you can only hope that this de-escalates and doesn't turn into a contemporary version of the East Timor or Rwandan or Khmer Rouge genocides or so on (where significant chunks of specific ethnic populations were outright butchered), that is what @africanspur has alluded to previously I think.

You're right, I know I'm being idealistic, and I've seen the silence first hand when massacres where happening in Syria and I remember telling my friends all the time that we shouldn't expect better because it's not affecting them directly and that's how the world works, however I can't accept it still, it still hurts on a human level.

 

[Member 60376]

I think in fairness to those posters, they're not apologising at all for the CCP.

I think, as horrible as it may read, they're saying in a world where nobody can influence China, where even the Organisation of Islamic cooperation fall behind China like lapdogs and say nothing (in fact, commending China for their treatment of Muslims and other minorities) and where China seems intent on, at the very least, complete cultural and political assimilation of the Uighurs...what can they do?

Nobody is going to war for them and it doesn't even particularly seem that China leaves those who manage to escape alone so I guess those posters are saying...what's the realistic option for them as a group?

All excellent points. You are right, there is no solution visible unfortunately. Not sure if denouncing their identity will ensure their safety. It'll probably just accelerate the process which has been happening in an industrial scale since 2014 or so. They're in a desperate situation and will most probably cease to exist as a sizeable ethnic group in Xinjiang in a decade. Any person with civil liberties cannot imagine the horrors that Uyghurs have been subject to.

 

[Member 60376]

Because they are cowards, all the Muslim world leaders are cowards for letting this happen, I wasn't accusing the poster of being an islamophobe, I was genuinely asking if he'd suggest the same if they weren't Muslim.

They care more about geopolitical benefits than the persecution of their religious brothers and sisters. Uyghurs are Turkic and not Arabic in origin. And not a single country cares for them. The hypocrisy is astounding.

 

[PedroMendez]

To be fair, some of the suggestions in this post are not grounded in reality. The entire situation is no doubt horrifying (particularly from the perspective of the oppressed), but wishing for anything beyond some minor posturing or sternly worded official complaints is fantastical — and “world leaders” are unlikely to intervene when most major nations would have no tangible gains from the theoretical enterprise...for all the talk of committing to abstractions like right and good, money and geopolitical ambition is what ultimately matters — that's the unfortunate and inconvenient truth.

Additionally, this poses no genuine existential threat to them, which throws another spanner in works as the groundswell of public support will be diluted. Why would they risk a downturn in their own economies by applying economic pressure on a powerhouse like China...especially in these precarious times, or risk the lives of their people in a series of extensive military interventions half-way across the world in something that might just trigger World War III in worst case scenarios — when on the basis of historical precedents, committing mass-atrocities and genocides are considered internal squabbles and no big deals as long as the most robust nations are not directly and immediately impacted — that's the way things have worked in the past (and will likely work in the future as well unless humanity as a whole becomes more empathetic and major institutions of power have a change of direaction/heart).

Realistically, you can only hope that this de-escalates and doesn't turn into a contemporary version of the East Timor or Rwandan or Khmer Rouge genocides or so on (where significant chunks of specific ethnic populations were outright butchered), that is what @africanspur has alluded to previously I think.

Its absurd to believe that the US, the EU or whoever could do much about it. China is taking the southern Chinese sea without firing a single shot despite the USA with its mighty navy and most neighbors having a shitload to lose. What is the US supposed to do in Xinjiang to pressure China, where they have little relevant military leverage? Does anyone honestly think that China is going to change their internal politics at all because of economic sanctions? Of course not. Sanctions frequently fail when applied against counties with economies 100x smaller than China's. China would do more or less anything before allowing foreign countries to interfere in what they consider domestic politics. Without hyperbole, short of sending 2 million NATO soldiers in their direction, China is not going to blink. I hope nobody wants that. I certainly don't.

Its completely irrelevant if western countries care or not. They don't own a magic stick. We know what has been happening in Tibet. We roughly know whats going to happen to the Uyghurs. As bad as that is, the Uyghurs only have themselves. If they rely on anyone else, the already lost whatever chance they have to preserve their identity and culture.

 

[Stactix]

Holocaust vibes... this was 9months ago apparently.

 

[Relevated]

I completely understand how @syrian_scholes feels. Non-muslims do not know what it feels like to be a Muslim. The anti-islam and anti-muslim rhetoric has been fed to everyone for far too many years, so its become extremely easy and acceptable to be unfair towards Muslims even though one may not realise. Many of you are on the opposite side of history, history has been very kind to you and you've been privileged. It isn't the same for Muslims and Muslims definitely understand and feel when they are being undermined or given the short straw - and its very very often due to media bias.


as for the Uyghurs? Nobody cares, and for those who care? They can't do anything. There is no futuristic, everybody is happy 2020... the reality is that the world is a very dark and negative place where many world leaders do not care for their population or the benefit of one another.

Every politician is wrong and bad for society apart from me, says the politician talking.

 

[Relevated]

Holocaust vibes... this was 9months ago apparently.

Its crazy. They've even arrested people who had commited a 'crime' many many years ago, and the crime of that person was simply attending a religious pilgrimage in Makkah. People force fed alcohol and in Ramadan, hair covering not allowed. Forced labour. This is mental.

 

[shamans]

Uigher lives dont matter as much to the world. The fact that theyre muslims makes it less of a priority. Thats the truth.

 

[shamans]

Yes. And they can become non-muslims by choice also. If its death or conversion the option to choose is conversion, even Islam says so provided in your heart you never converted.

What hope do we have when this is an "educated" persons response

 

[shamans]

I think in fairness to those posters, they're not apologising at all for the CCP.

I think, as horrible as it may read, they're saying in a world where nobody can influence China, where even the Organisation of Islamic cooperation fall behind China like lapdogs and say nothing (in fact, commending China for their treatment of Muslims and other minorities) and where China seems intent on, at the very least, complete cultural and political assimilation of the Uighurs...what can they do?

Nobody is going to war for them and it doesn't even particularly seem that China leaves those who manage to escape alone so I guess those posters are saying...what's the realistic option for them as a group?

What an apologetic way to look at it. Quite sad. I suppose women who get raped in India should not wear skirts. Its whats realistic?