Called me overly progressive, but I don't think people converting for fear of extermination paints a good picture for humanity in the 21st century. One would hope this kind of stuff would have been left behind with the middle ages.
Uighurs should definitely convert out of Islam if it serves their self interests. They're a turkic muslim culture and there are enough Muslims to carry forward their culture.
You are discussing that as an option, in 21st century? Seriously? Is this the world we live in now?Yes. And they can become non-muslims by choice also. If its death or conversion the option to choose is conversion, even Islam says so provided in your heart you never converted.
Uighurs should convert to whatever the chinese want them to convert to. Under threat of life Islamic scriptures allows conversion out of islam. They shouldn't be expected to get exterminated for being muslims if no other muslim country gives a toss about them.
Not sure how that's supposed to work, you can't give up your whole background just like that. (Most importantly, no one should be forced to do so in the first place.) There are plenty of people throughout history who chose their creed or political convictions over safety, or even survival.Uighurs should definitely convert out of Islam if it serves their self interests. They're a turkic muslim culture and there are enough Muslims to carry forward their culture.
Depends on if you value preservation of a culture which isn't even unique more than human life.You are discussing that as an option, in 21st century? Seriously? Is this the world we live in now?
It is the same world we’ve always lived in. This is what happens when Authoritarianism goes unchecked, same as it ever has.You are discussing that as an option, in 21st century? Seriously? Is this the world we live in now?
They are not being asked to convert, rather the opposite, this is China's way of 'disarming' islamic influence. Some of these reeducation camps are comparable to Guantanamo Bay, there's been a few reports from the NYT about this. It is more of a cultural genocide.Called me overly progressive, but I don't think people converting for fear of extermination paints a good picture for humanity in the 21st century. One would hope this kind of stuff would have been left behind with the middle ages.
Oh, didn't realise Chinese get to decide what will other people do with their lives and that rest of the world is fine with that.Depends on if you value preservation of a culture which isn't even unique more than human life.
Find a way that anybody with enough power could make money off of it.What can be done to help?
Serious. Contacting MPs, donations, social media reach....?
Cultural genocide involves the eradication and destruction of cultural artifacts, such as books, artworks, and structures, and the suppression of cultural activities that do not conform to the destroyer's notion of what is appropriate.They are not being asked to convert, rather the opposite, this is China's way of 'disarming' islamic influence. Some of these reeducation camps are comparable to Guantanamo Bay, there's been a few reports from the NYT about this. It is more of a cultural genocide.
Sliding into Jeff Bezos' DMsFind a way that anybody with enough power could make money off of it.
Oh they're doing that too. They are certainly suppressing cultural activities and been tearing down mosques based on comparisons of recent and older satellite photos. They're just not stopping there, that's all.Cultural genocide involves the eradication and destruction of cultural artifacts, such as books, artworks, and structures, and the suppression of cultural activities that do not conform to the destroyer's notion of what is appropriate.
That's obviously not what this is, it's pretty much racism and typical genocide.
Who decides the value? Can't believe what I'm seeing here. Its almost apologist behaviour in favour of the CCP.Depends on if you value preservation of a culture which isn't even unique more than human life.
I think in fairness to those posters, they're not apologising at all for the CCP.Who decides the value? Can't believe what I'm seeing here. Its almost apologist behaviour in favour of the CCP.
I wonder if you'd have suggested that if they had any other relegion.Depends on if you value preservation of a culture which isn't even unique more than human life.
Yes I'm sure they would have. I don't really know why you're taking offence at this as if it is some kind of islamophobic comment, there is no indication of anything like that in this thread.I wonder if you'd have suggested that if they had any other relegion.
Because they are cowards, all the Muslim world leaders are cowards for letting this happen, I wasn't accusing the poster of being an islamophobe, I was genuinely asking if he'd suggest the same if they weren't Muslim.Yes I'm sure they would have. I don't really know why you're taking offence at this as if it is some kind of islamophobic comment, there is no indication of anything like that in this thread.
Even the countries you might expect to come to their defence due to a shared religion (OIC) or shared cultural heritage (Stans) are conspicuously silent or even praising China.
I'd imagine he would. The original poster who suggested it (Vidared) is, I believe, a Muslim himself, and quoted an Islamic tradition in doing so. Its also a tradition that has happened at other times, including the Sephardic Jews in Spain for instance.Because they are cowards, all the Muslim world leaders are cowards for letting this happen, I wasn't accusing the poster of being an islamophobe, I was genuinely asking if he'd suggest the same if they weren't Muslim.
I know that in Muslim teachings if your life is under threat you can convert, however I don't think that should not be an acceptable solution in 2020 especially when every country is claiming to be all about inclusivity and diversity, or does that talk ends when it comes to Muslims?I'd imagine he would. The original poster who suggested it (Vidared) is, I believe, a Muslim himself, and quoted an Islamic tradition in doing so. Its also a tradition that has happened at other times, including the Sephardic Jews in Spain for instance.
A more recent example may be the Sikhs of Afghanistan for instance, who received a disproportionate amount of the violence as minorities during the wars. Most of them chose to leave. Similarly to the Jews of Egypt/ other Arab countries in the 2nd half of the 20th century.
So those posters are, I think, saying in a world that clearly is not going/ not able to stop China, what are their options? Leave en masse, integrate completely or seemingly be integrated forcefully anyway.
Its a wretched situation.
You're doing this again. You're in a thread where mostly non-Muslims are expressing their disgust that this is happening, to any group, in the 21st century. And taking every comment as a comment that wouldn't be said if it was happening to non-Muslims.I know that in Muslim teachings if your life is under threat you can convert, however I don't think that should not be an acceptable solution in 2020 especially when every country is claiming to be all about inclusivity and diversity, or does that talk ends when it comes to Muslims?
And frankly I don't care about historic examples, we live in a different time where humanity is trying to evolve beyond what happened before, why should every discussion go back to history?
Again for some reason just because I'm expressing my views in this thread you think I'm criticizing people posting here, I'm criticizing world leaders and saying the proposed solution shouldn't be acceptable in this day and age, why are you blaming me for that?You're doing this again. You're in a thread where mostly non-Muslims are expressing their disgust that this is happening, to any group, in the 21st century. And taking every comment as a comment that wouldn't be said if it was happening to non-Muslims.
Vidared at least offered his thoughts on what he thinks they should/could do. A few others have asked whether other neighbouring countries may take them. They've tried to think of what this group might be able to do in the face of an unstoppable party political machine.
Rather than taking offence and always just assuming people are making comments because they're talking about Muslims, you could see that this is what some are trying to do.
I've seen literally no evidence in this thread that people are making the comments they are because they view Muslims as less than non-Muslims or Islam as less than other religions. In fact, as I said, the very first person who suggested that is Muslim himself.
Also, does China really claim to be inclusive? It is certainly a diverse country, more so than some might think. But it is a one party state, with an overwhelming Han Chinese majority. Its a country where free thought is not particularly encouraged, especially if that free thought is contradictory to what the CCP wants people to think.
Because you are criticising the opinions people have posted on this thread and asking, suggestively, whether they would ask that still if they were non-Muslims.Again for some reason just because I'm expressing my views in this thread you think I'm criticizing people posting here, I'm criticizing world leaders and saying the proposed solution shouldn't be acceptable in this day and age, why are you blaming me for that?
No, my first post was a question to a poster that you've decided to interpret as taking offence when I was asking a genuine question, and that is would the suggestion even be there in this day and age if they weren't Muslims, of course I was auggesting the poster was in the wrong, rather suggesting that had the Uighurs not been Muslim the world would have done more to protect them.Because you are criticising the opinions people have posted on this thread and asking, suggestively, whether they would ask that still if they were non-Muslims.
How can it be criticising world leaders when I don't think a single world leader has suggested that the Uighyurs do what has been suggested on this thread? In fact, the only countries commenting and censuring China over it have been non-Muslim countries.
I think we've seen in the recent past that the world, rightly or wrongly, is not going to get involved in genocide and mass violence. Rwanda, Myanmar, South Sudan, Darfur, CAR and Iraq very recently.
So like how the world helped in Rwanda? Or in Sudan, both North and South? Or the literal slave camps in Libya right now? What did the world do to intervene for these non-Muslim groups?No, my first post was a question to a poster that you've decided to interpret as taking offence when I was asking a genuine question, and that is would the suggestion even be there in this day and age if they weren't Muslims, of course I was auggesting the poster was in the wrong, rather suggesting that had the Uighurs not been Muslim the world would have done more to protect them.
then in my reply to you I was saying that the suggestion imo isn't acceptable and the world shouldn't accept it, and you again decided that I was taking offence at comments in this threads.
As for your point regarding Muslim countries silence, you do know most of those countries are 3rd world countries with dictators as leaders who have no regards to human life? So to me 1st world countries and world leaders shouldn't be counting on those countries to help out and instead take charge, because it's more about human life than relegion.
And that's on them right? We should expecting the leaders to do more rather than give them a free pass for letting these things happen is what I'm trying to say.So like how the world helped in Rwanda? Or in Sudan, both North and South? Or the literal slave camps in Libya right now? What did the world do to intervene for these non-Muslim groups?
And yes I'm fully aware, my wife grew up in of these countries and is half Egyptian. Sisi is a total monster.
I'm interested in what you think the 1st world countries can do to stop China? And a realistic solution. Considering they've done nothing really to intervene even in countries infinitely weaker and less influential than China?
No I wouldn't have if Uighurs shared a religion which is unique to them in their interpretation of God and ways of approaching Him and extinguishing that religion would lead to the loss of a singular way of thinking then I would say stick to that religion. As it stands they're muslims, there are 1.8 billion muslims following islamic practices. The priority for the Uighurs has to be to save their lives. They can revert to Islam when the CCP falls. The religion will survive without them.I wonder if you'd have suggested that if they had any other relegion.
It's not about relegion survival though is it? It's about personal beliefs, of course I wouldn't blame them if they chose to do it, however I'd rather someone offer them an escape route so they don't have to lose their culture and beliefs.No I wouldn't have if Uighurs shared a religion which is unique to them in their interpretation of God and ways of approaching Him and extinguishing that religion would lead to the loss of a singular way of thinking then I would say stick to that religion. As it stands they're muslims, there are 1.8 billion muslims following islamic practices. The priority for the Uighurs has to be to save their lives. They can revert to Islam when the CCP falls. The religion will survive without them.
Sure, thats the first preference.It's not about relegion survival though is it? It's about personal beliefs, of course I wouldn't blame them if they chose to do it, however I'd rather someone offer them an escape route so they don't have to lose their culture and beliefs.
To be fair, some of the suggestions in this post are not grounded in reality. The entire situation is no doubt horrifying (particularly from the perspective of the oppressed), but wishing for anything beyond some minor posturing or sternly worded official complaints is fantastical — and “world leaders” are unlikely to intervene when most major nations would have no tangible gains from the theoretical enterprise...for all the talk of committing to abstractions like right and good, money and geopolitical ambition is what ultimately matters — that's the unfortunate and inconvenient truth.And that's on them right? We should expecting the leaders to do more rather than give them a free pass for letting these things happen is what I'm trying to say.
And honestly I don't have the answers, I understand how strong China is, however those in power should be expected to intervene rather than just saying 'oh they haven't intervened before so it's fine', we should aim to do better rather than repeat the same mistakes shouldn't we? And I don't claim to have the answer but I also don't believe "just convert" should be the answer.
Maybe applying economic pressure on China might help instead of accepting it, and again it's up to world leaders to find the suitable solution, they were elected to better the world, it's their job.
You're right, I know I'm being idealistic, and I've seen the silence first hand when massacres where happening in Syria and I remember telling my friends all the time that we shouldn't expect better because it's not affecting them directly and that's how the world works, however I can't accept it still, it still hurts on a human level.To be fair, some of the suggestions in this post are not grounded in reality. The entire situation is no doubt horrifying (particularly from the perspective of the oppressed), but wishing for anything beyond some minor posturing or sternly worded official complaints is fantastical — and “world leaders” are unlikely to intervene when most major nations would have no tangible gains from the theoretical enterprise...for all the talk of committing to abstractions like right and good, money and geopolitical ambition is what ultimately matters — that's the unfortunate and inconvenient truth.
Additionally, this poses no genuine existential threat to them, which throws another spanner in works as the groundswell of public support will be diluted. Why would they risk a downturn in their own economies by applying economic pressure on a powerhouse like China...especially in these precarious times, or risk the lives of their people in a series of extensive military interventions half-way across the world in something that might just trigger World War III in worst case scenarios — when on the basis of historical precedents, committing mass-atrocities and genocides are considered internal squabbles and no big deals as long as the most robust nations are not directly and immediately impacted — that's the way things have worked in the past (and will likely work in the future as well unless humanity as a whole becomes more empathetic and major institutions of power have a change of direaction/heart).
Realistically, you can only hope that this de-escalates and doesn't turn into a contemporary version of the East Timor or Rwandan or Khmer Rouge genocides or so on (where significant chunks of specific ethnic populations were outright butchered), that is what @africanspur has alluded to previously I think.
All excellent points. You are right, there is no solution visible unfortunately. Not sure if denouncing their identity will ensure their safety. It'll probably just accelerate the process which has been happening in an industrial scale since 2014 or so. They're in a desperate situation and will most probably cease to exist as a sizeable ethnic group in Xinjiang in a decade. Any person with civil liberties cannot imagine the horrors that Uyghurs have been subject to.I think in fairness to those posters, they're not apologising at all for the CCP.
I think, as horrible as it may read, they're saying in a world where nobody can influence China, where even the Organisation of Islamic cooperation fall behind China like lapdogs and say nothing (in fact, commending China for their treatment of Muslims and other minorities) and where China seems intent on, at the very least, complete cultural and political assimilation of the Uighurs...what can they do?
Nobody is going to war for them and it doesn't even particularly seem that China leaves those who manage to escape alone so I guess those posters are saying...what's the realistic option for them as a group?
They care more about geopolitical benefits than the persecution of their religious brothers and sisters. Uyghurs are Turkic and not Arabic in origin. And not a single country cares for them. The hypocrisy is astounding.Because they are cowards, all the Muslim world leaders are cowards for letting this happen, I wasn't accusing the poster of being an islamophobe, I was genuinely asking if he'd suggest the same if they weren't Muslim.
Its absurd to believe that the US, the EU or whoever could do much about it. China is taking the southern Chinese sea without firing a single shot despite the USA with its mighty navy and most neighbors having a shitload to lose. What is the US supposed to do in Xinjiang to pressure China, where they have little relevant military leverage? Does anyone honestly think that China is going to change their internal politics at all because of economic sanctions? Of course not. Sanctions frequently fail when applied against counties with economies 100x smaller than China's. China would do more or less anything before allowing foreign countries to interfere in what they consider domestic politics. Without hyperbole, short of sending 2 million NATO soldiers in their direction, China is not going to blink. I hope nobody wants that. I certainly don't.To be fair, some of the suggestions in this post are not grounded in reality. The entire situation is no doubt horrifying (particularly from the perspective of the oppressed), but wishing for anything beyond some minor posturing or sternly worded official complaints is fantastical — and “world leaders” are unlikely to intervene when most major nations would have no tangible gains from the theoretical enterprise...for all the talk of committing to abstractions like right and good, money and geopolitical ambition is what ultimately matters — that's the unfortunate and inconvenient truth.
Additionally, this poses no genuine existential threat to them, which throws another spanner in works as the groundswell of public support will be diluted. Why would they risk a downturn in their own economies by applying economic pressure on a powerhouse like China...especially in these precarious times, or risk the lives of their people in a series of extensive military interventions half-way across the world in something that might just trigger World War III in worst case scenarios — when on the basis of historical precedents, committing mass-atrocities and genocides are considered internal squabbles and no big deals as long as the most robust nations are not directly and immediately impacted — that's the way things have worked in the past (and will likely work in the future as well unless humanity as a whole becomes more empathetic and major institutions of power have a change of direaction/heart).
Realistically, you can only hope that this de-escalates and doesn't turn into a contemporary version of the East Timor or Rwandan or Khmer Rouge genocides or so on (where significant chunks of specific ethnic populations were outright butchered), that is what @africanspur has alluded to previously I think.
Its crazy. They've even arrested people who had commited a 'crime' many many years ago, and the crime of that person was simply attending a religious pilgrimage in Makkah. People force fed alcohol and in Ramadan, hair covering not allowed. Forced labour. This is mental.
Holocaust vibes... this was 9months ago apparently.
What hope do we have when this is an "educated" persons responseYes. And they can become non-muslims by choice also. If its death or conversion the option to choose is conversion, even Islam says so provided in your heart you never converted.
What an apologetic way to look at it. Quite sad. I suppose women who get raped in India should not wear skirts. Its whats realistic?I think in fairness to those posters, they're not apologising at all for the CCP.
I think, as horrible as it may read, they're saying in a world where nobody can influence China, where even the Organisation of Islamic cooperation fall behind China like lapdogs and say nothing (in fact, commending China for their treatment of Muslims and other minorities) and where China seems intent on, at the very least, complete cultural and political assimilation of the Uighurs...what can they do?
Nobody is going to war for them and it doesn't even particularly seem that China leaves those who manage to escape alone so I guess those posters are saying...what's the realistic option for them as a group?