[Stacks]

Do you really think City and Liverpool could play 60-70 % for 25-30 matches a season and still win ? And have you ever watched La Liga or the Bundesliga on a regular basis, for an entire season?

City and Liverpool happened to have record points, but they don't walk the league the way Madrid, Barca, Bayern, PSG walk their league. And they have winter holidays. PL is the most physically demanding and toughest league in the world. Basically no match is easy here. Where anyone can beat anyone on their day. There are always like 15 solid teams instead of 4-5 ones in the Liga, Bundesliga or L1. That's a big reason why PL is the most popular and fun to watch in the world.

I really don't understand why people would deny that

When I was a teenager I did watch whole seasons but now I am bound to the pressures of adult life. Often teams like Liverpool and City win games without playing their best. During this post COVID run we have been winning games in 3rd gear without playing particularly well so I don't get why you think its impossible. Teams always win playing at 70% of their capacity. "they say that's the making of a good team" after all

Can anyone beat anyone on their day in England? Pool have lost like 2 games in 2 seasons until they won the title and stopped trying. Last year City and Pool lost 5 between them. In every league anyone can beat anyone. 5-7th placed teams have 14 losses each in La Liga. Only 4 teams do not have double figure losses there. In England its 5. Last season Real lost 12.

You seem to think that running around is the only way teams can make matches competitive. What about technical ability and tactics? Can teams not be competitive because their league is technically or tactically demanding? food for thought

 

[Adam-Utd]

Sometimes I feel only ManUtd fans talk about all the tiredness, fatigue. You see players from Madrid, Barca, Bayern who plays every single min but somehow their levels dont drop.

That's because 70% of their league games are won without breaking a sweat. They're so dominant compared to other teams it's like playing down the park.

We aren't at that level yet, at the start when everybody was fresh we played to that level, but start adding 4 games in 8 days and you soon lose that extra sharpness you need.

Bayern actually rotated heavily since the restart also, only Lewandowski really played every match but as a striker in a Bayern team you don't need to do a lot of chasing.

Don't watch a lot of the Spanish teams anymore but keep an eye on the results, Barca have struggled massively and rely heavily on Messi, they aren't exactly flying right now are they?

If it was just league games it wouldn't have been an issue but those extra 2 FA cup matches have definitely taken an edge out of our play.

 

[roonster09]

That's because 70% of their league games are won without breaking a sweat. They're so dominant compared to other teams it's like playing down the park.

We aren't at that level yet, at the start when everybody was fresh we played to that level, but start adding 4 games in 8 days and you soon lose that extra sharpness you need.

Bayern actually rotated heavily since the restart also, only Lewandowski really played every match but as a striker in a Bayern team you don't need to do a lot of chasing.

Don't watch a lot of the Spanish teams anymore but keep an eye on the results, Barca have struggled massively and rely heavily on Messi, they aren't exactly flying right now are they?

If it was just league games it wouldn't have been an issue but those extra 2 FA cup matches have definitely taken an edge out of our play.

Yeah, later I gave Liverpool numbers from last season, they played in same league, CL and domestic cups. See how many games their core players played.

 

[Strelok]

Fabinho didn't start till around november time, from that time he played almost every game. Their FBs work as hard as anyone, still they played many games. Same with Wijnaldum, he played almost every game.

How about Henderson and other midfielders ?
And their FB, they hardly do overlap so I don't think they would run much. They usually stay a bit above the half line and hit early crosses. I still remember the game against them where we drew 1-1. It was basically their midfield pressed like crazy and won the ball, then gave the ball to their FB and they hit early cross. If it didn't work, the cycle repeated. Until Robertson hit a pretty good one and Rojo had a brainfart and they scored.

When I was a teenager I did watch whole seasons but now I am bound to the pressures of adult life. Often teams like Liverpool and City win games without playing their best. During this post COVID run we have been winning games in 3rd gear without playing particularly well so I don't get why you think its impossible. Teams always win playing at 70% of their capacity. "they say that's the making of a good team" after all

Can anyone beat anyone on their day in England? Pool have lost like 2 games in 2 seasons until they won the title and stopped trying. Last year City and Pool lost 5 between them. In every league anyone can beat anyone. 5-7th placed teams have 14 losses each in La Liga. Only 4 teams do not have double figure losses there. In England its 5. Last season Real lost 12.

You seem to think that running around is the only way teams can make matches competitive. What about technical ability and tactics? Can teams not be competitive because their league is technically or tactically demanding? food for thought

I think you used the wrong word here. It's more trying their best. Even in this season, many matches City and Liverpool were pretty lucky to win. Especially with Liverpool early season, with a lot of help from Var and dubious decision from the ref. So I don't think they didn't try their best.

Even us in our height day, when the gap between big teams and smaller teams much bigger than now, when teams were scared af of us couldn't walk the league the way Madrid, Barca, Bayern did theirs.

Anyway, I think we should stop here. We won't ever be able to agree since there's basically no evidence to support both sides. It'd be just a waste of time.

_________

Now on this subject of fatigue I'd like to share my own experience as a footballer, amateur of course. When I'm like super tired and still have to play, I can still run a lot. I think it's because of the andrenaline. But my first touch, ball control, passing shooting usually drop from a cliff. Especially passing. Also my concentration and game reading. So imo the sign of how tired a player is not how much he run but rather how is his doing with the ball compared to his usual.

 

[roonster09]

How about Henderson and other midfielders ?
And their FB, they hardly do overlap so I don't think they would run much. They usually stay a bit above the half line and hit early crosses. I still remember the game against them where we drew 1-1. It was basically their midfield pressed like crazy and won the ball, then gave the ball to their FB and they hit early cross. If it didn't work, the cycle repeated. Until Robertson hit a pretty good one and Rojo had a brainfart and they scored

So these 2 midfielders were nit fatigued? Liverpool FBs don't overlap? Dude for sake of arguing don't post randomly. They have insane work rate

 

[Strelok]

So these 2 midfielders were nit fatigued? Liverpool FBs don't overlap? Dude for sake of arguing don't post randomly. They have insane work rate

Dude for the sake of arguing don't call other "randomly" to prove your point. That's not how civilized people do in a discussion. If you have an argument or evidence, well spill it. Calling other names doesn't prove anything.

And what did you actually mean in the bold sentence?

 

[roonster09]

Dude for the sake of arguing don't call other "randomly" just to prove your point. That's not how civilized people do in a discussion.

And what did you actually mean in the bold sentence?

You think Liverpool FBs don't run up and down the pitch all game? Have you seen Robertson's work rate?

So Fabinho and Wijnaldum played almost all games, so were they not fatigued? You said Liverpool rotated their midfielders but Fabinho since November and Wijnaldum played in almost all games.

 

[Strelok]

You think Liverpool FBs don't run up and down the pitch all game? Have you seen Robertson's work rate?

So Fabinho and Wijnaldum played almost all games, so were they not fatigued? You said Liverpool rotated their midfielders but Fabinho since November and Wijnaldum played in almost all games.

Yes, I agree Robertson work hard but based on what I saw of them so far I don't see them overlapping much but hitting a lot of early crosses. Do you have any evidence or something concrete against that ?

The numbers you posted are from season 18/19, I supposed we're talking about that season right ? Liverpool played a midfield three if I'm not wrong. If you calm down a bit and look at their midfielders you'd see they all have a fair share of minutes. And considerably lower than the likes of VVD, Mane, Salah. Henderson, their capitain only played 2821' while VVD played 4469'. That basically means they rotate their midfielders a lot I think.

 

[roonster09]

Yes, I agree Robertson work hard but based on what I saw of them so far I don't see them overlapping much but hitting a lot of early crosses. Do you have any evidence or something concrete against that ?

The numbers you posted are from season 18/19, I supposed we're talking about that season right ? Liverpool played a midfield three if I'm not wrong. If you calm down a bit and look at their midfielders you'd see they all have a fair share of minutes. And considerably lower than the likes of VVD, Mane, Salah. Henderson, their capitain only played 2821' while VVD played 4469'. That basically means they rotate their midfielders a lot I think.

No, in the very first post I said this season shouldn't be used because of pandemic, breaks and unrealistic schedule, so used last season.

Every time Liverpool attack, Robertson attacks and joins them, that shows his work rate.

 

[Strelok]

No, in the very first post I said this season shouldn't be used because of pandemic, breaks and unrealistic schedule, so used last season.

Every time Liverpool attack, Robertson attacks and joins them, that shows his work rate.

Well I use the data from season 2018/2019, not this season in case you haven't noticed. This season is 2019/2020 dude.
https://www.anfield-online.co.uk/stats/2018-19/2018-19-lfc-stats.html

For the Robertson and TTA usually have a lot of overlap so far both us has nothing concrete to backup our opinion yet. So it's 50/50 I think.

Of course I don't watch them much so it's just my thought. Hope some of their fans here would give an opinion on this.

Would love to have an opinion from a Liverpool fan here on both their midfield rotation and how much overlap do their FBs usually have. Do you happen to know anyone here that does?

 

[roonster09]

Well I use the data from season 2018/2019, not this season in case you haven't noticed.
https://www.anfield-online.co.uk/stats/2018-19/2018-19-lfc-stats.html

For the Robertson and TTA usually have a lot of overlap so far both us has nothing concrete to backup our opinion yet. So it's 50/50 I think.



Would love to have an opinion from a Liverpool fan here on both their midfield rotation and how much overlap do their FBs usually have. Do you happen to know anyone here that does?

I have given the mins, total games for 2 of their midfielders, not sure what's there to argue there.

Regarding their FBs, you don't need stats to see how much they contribute in attack, they are always in the attack.

Edit: Anyways this is offtopic in this thread, it was just general observation and also you don't need stats to see Liverpool FBs joining the attack all the time or to see Robertson is a physical freak.

 

[Strelok]

I have given the mins, total games for 2 of their midfielders, not sure what's there to argue there.

Regarding their FBs, you don't need stats to see how much they contribute in attack, they are always in the attack.

Edit: Anyways this is offtopic in this thread, it was just general observation and also you don't need stats to see Liverpool FBs joining the attack all the time or to see Robertson is a physical freak.

Regarding this. I had a look at the injury record of Fabinho and he's injury free the season 2018/2019. However as you said he only started from November so his number can't be used in this discussion I think. Still that means he was not good enough to be in their starting midfield until November. If they had any sort of that.

However, how do you explain for Henderson, their captain to have 2821' while VVD played 4469' if it's not rotation? And basically all their midfielders got a fair share of minutes. And even for Wijnaldum, he had 3713'. It's significantly lower than the 4469' of VVD.

Anyway, yeah it's off topic but I'm pretty curious about this now. Both the midfield rotation and the FB overlapping stuff. But I don't know any Liverpool fan here. Anyone here happen to know one please ?

 

[roonster09]

Regarding this. I had a look at the injury record of Fabinho and he's injury free the season 2018/2019. However as you said he only started from November so his number can't be used in this discussion I think. Still that means he was not good enough to be in their starting midfield until November. If they had any sort of that.

However, how do you explain for Henderson, their captain to have 2821' while VVD played 4469' if it's not rotation? And basically all their midfielders got a fair share of minutes. And even for Wijnaldum, he had 3713'. It's significantly lower than the 4469' of VVD.

Anyway, yeah it's off topic but I'm pretty curious about this now. Both the midfield rotation and the FB overlapping stuff. But I don't know any Liverpool fan here. Anyone here happen to know one please ?

He should be used, he played almost all games from November, if it was ManUtd player we would be talking about fatigue if player plays in all games for 3 months, never mind 6-7 months. He played almost all games starting from November to end of May, how can he not be included?

Wijnaldum played 35 league games, that's a pipe dream for any of our midfielders.

Henderson, Milner are not starting players, at least Henderson wasn't last season. He won his place again later in the season. Milner is their utility player., So it's not surprising that Henderson didn't play anywhere near Wijnaldum or VVD.

 

[He'sRaldo]

@roonster09 I think it's because

i) Our fitness hasn't been top tier in recent years

ii) Our running, especially defensively, is usually inefficient, which leads to a lot of tiredness over the course of the season, and

iii) A lot of our players either aren't built for stamina naturally, or bulk up as they get to the club, so we see them not agile or sprightly enough to maintain a lot of running without tiredness.

 

[roonster09]

@roonster09 I think it's because

i) Our fitness hasn't been top tier in recent years

ii) Our running, especially defensively, is usually inefficient, which leads to a lot of tiredness over the course of the season, and

iii) A lot of our players either aren't built for stamina naturally, or bulk up as they get to the club, so we see them not agile or sprightly enough to maintain a lot of running without tiredness.

Yeah I agree with this. We really had shit fitness record under Jose when we finished last or in last 3 in every season in distance covered, so maybe players are genuinely tired when they are asked to play with higher intensity.

So maybe it takes time to build top level fitness, also I think our players are inconsistent, so in general posters attribute that to fitness. Again nothing to back up this point.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Tired man does tired things.

It's insane that's he's played 90 minutes in these last two games... And we're suffering for it.

 

[spiriticon]

He's now a proper post-2013 United player

Transformation complete.

 

[luisnani86]

If the Bruno post-Norwich was the Bruno our scouts went to watch in Lisbon... I'm not surprised we didn't buy him; the criticism of he loses possession too frequently is completely justified. Yet another abject performance, and only marginally better than the appalling Pogba.

 

[Man-United]

Bloody fecking awful. Fourth game in a row. Keep losing the ball all the time, bad touches.

 

[ivaldo]

Knackered. Still looks dangerous on the ball but needed a rest.

 

[ha_rooney]

Should never have played against Chelsea. Looks absolutely exhausted.

 

[Yagami]

Sigh. Probably the most frustrating player I've ever watched for us.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Awful but needs a rest.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Awful today

 

[mu4c_20le]

Our scouts are being vindicated

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

I still love him.

But that was fecking horrendous

 

[Robbie Boy]

Well that was all sorts of awful.

 

[Jev]

He's been playing terribly for weeks, conceding possession all the time with sloppy passing, constantly making the wrong decision. You'd think that would make it easier to rest him so he could get his form and fitness back but apparently not.

 

[RedIan]

Off night which effects the rest of the team. Its unfortunate he has not been able to take a break with games coming every 2-3 days. Let’s not forget he’s put us in the position Of 3rd from no where last october

 

[red4ever 79]

Awful but needs a rest.

100% this. Looks gassed.

 

[Dinghy]

For all the praise he's got this season, he's been the worst player on the pitch for at least 3-4 games. Frustrating as feck.

 

[Thiagoal]

We wondered how long it’d take for him to sink down to our normal level... well today was the answer! Abysmal!

 

[dev1l]

Knee jerking alert

 

[Canagel]

Awful once again

 

[Hulme91]

He's been run into the ground, looked like he couldn't even run after 60 minutes

 

[jesperjaap]

He hasnt just been poor today, he has been poor the last four games bar a 15minute spell that won us the game the other night. Same token though, I admire the way he still keeps trying things and always works his socks off.

My only concern dare I say it. Have we already seen the best of him. DiMaria and Veron were two hugely talented players that started off well and failed. I dont think he will fail, but I really dont think we cant consistently expect him to be of the level he has been since he has been here bar the last few games.

This is why we need reinforcements and dare I say again Grealish. He cant play game in game out over a whole season the way he works so hard, there needs to be cover and competition for his position and others. Martial and Greenwood were ok today but Rashford was absolutely dreadful, Fernandes was poor as was Pogba....but there was nobody on the bench to bring on to change the game

 

[Castia]

Been really poor these last few games, he’s constantly giving the ball away.

 

[Ace of Spades]

Awful game, but he is clearly exhausted. When fatigue sets in, you start getting more sloppy.

 

[Ødegaard]

He is clearly tired. Quality player.

 

[roonster09]

He looked exhausted, in one moment he couldn't even jog. Very poor management by Ole, should have taken him off.