Yeah okay.
Why do we seem to get fleeced so often?
- Thread starter Solius
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Levy who has followed Tottenham since the 1960's and has been in the business of football for at least 19 years? Yes he is. Roman isn't but he also doesn't take part in buying and selling players. He might point to a player that he wants or wants gone but he doesn't negotiate fees.
Whether he was a roaring success or an abject failure we still paid one of our biggest rivals who were financially on their knees £10m or 33% more than we needed too.
Agree with this. We also seem to identify only players who have a lot of contract time left as well. Surely we could build a database of players in the last 12-18 months of a contract and bid for the best players for the positions we need.
Shaw and Martial were both record signings at the time though, they wasnt cheap.
If true what some are saying that it has to go to Joel Glazer to say yay or nay on whether we buy a player and how much to spend, doesnt that make Woody redundant in the transfer business as its Judge who does the paperwork on the deal? Can we really blame Woody then for this?
So true. Shedding the reputation of a club that overpays will be a long process. It may even mean we don't get players we really want just to make a point. Not sure how I feel about that.
Throw Matt judge away from negotiating duties.
Hate to dumb it down so much but...
The player market is just that, a market. And what determines the value of items at the market? Its quality, it's longevity, it's potential, it's marketability and it's "hype and demand" amongst other things. But also they are deemed "ready" for the big club step up. This then becomes something rather rare doesn't it.
Why are big clubs "big"? Because they get the best. And they accumulate the best whilst continuing to replace with the best. When you own something rare, that the big clubs want. YOU control the market, especially so if you are in a good enough financial position your self and sell at the best possible times. So big clubs like us are always paying top dollar for a reason.
Maguire - Quality, English premier league proven, english, leadership, international, longevity. Who wants him? english clubs. Now theres demand. Who can afford him? only big clubs.
Van Dijk - Liverpool payed top dollar for similar.
Every single "big club" is paying top dollar. But why are we not buying these players before they are so expensive in the market? Well there is a balance. These players are often not yet the best, they need the right recipe to take those steps. And big clubs can't exactly afford to let their standing drop momentarily. There is less room to gamble and to develop. These "developing" clubs like Leicester (of late), Southampton, Monaco, Sevilla, Sporting, Ajax the list goes on. They don't exactly stay "big clubs" on the continent for long or in their own league for that matter.
Look at Depay. An instance where if we got the now in form Depay for our original 28 mill fee itd have been a bargain. But we gambled at what became the wrong time. Because there is no doubt if he was deemed to be at premium value and ready to make waves in our starting team he would have cost over 40 mill. But he wasn't ready in his development if we wanted to remain at the top.
So big clubs don't get fleeced. They pay the market. And they do it in an attempt to stay at the top.
We are still a "big club" and it is an accomplishment to be up there for decades. We just made poor signings over the last 7 years in a very critical time of trying to stay the course at the very top.
The player market is just that, a market. And what determines the value of items at the market? Its quality, it's longevity, it's potential, it's marketability and it's "hype and demand" amongst other things. But also they are deemed "ready" for the big club step up. This then becomes something rather rare doesn't it.
Why are big clubs "big"? Because they get the best. And they accumulate the best whilst continuing to replace with the best. When you own something rare, that the big clubs want. YOU control the market, especially so if you are in a good enough financial position your self and sell at the best possible times. So big clubs like us are always paying top dollar for a reason.
Maguire - Quality, English premier league proven, english, leadership, international, longevity. Who wants him? english clubs. Now theres demand. Who can afford him? only big clubs.
Van Dijk - Liverpool payed top dollar for similar.
Every single "big club" is paying top dollar. But why are we not buying these players before they are so expensive in the market? Well there is a balance. These players are often not yet the best, they need the right recipe to take those steps. And big clubs can't exactly afford to let their standing drop momentarily. There is less room to gamble and to develop. These "developing" clubs like Leicester (of late), Southampton, Monaco, Sevilla, Sporting, Ajax the list goes on. They don't exactly stay "big clubs" on the continent for long or in their own league for that matter.
Look at Depay. An instance where if we got the now in form Depay for our original 28 mill fee itd have been a bargain. But we gambled at what became the wrong time. Because there is no doubt if he was deemed to be at premium value and ready to make waves in our starting team he would have cost over 40 mill. But he wasn't ready in his development if we wanted to remain at the top.
So big clubs don't get fleeced. They pay the market. And they do it in an attempt to stay at the top.
We are still a "big club" and it is an accomplishment to be up there for decades. We just made poor signings over the last 7 years in a very critical time of trying to stay the course at the very top.
Some of you guys are seriously overrating the significance of "negotiation skills". If a club has decided on a price they won't go under, there isn't enough negotiation skills in the world to force or coax them to budge. Doesn't matter what our negotiators say, the selling club can just say, nah we want x million.
Selling clubs first and foremost want to extract as much money from the buyer as possible, and if they think they can get x million, then they will try to get that. Our only real negotiation tool is to walk away from the deal and not buy the player, which I'm sure happens in a fair few cases. But sometimes we really really want the player.
For the rest of what I was going to say, just refer to DeeDee above, he said it better anyway.
Selling clubs first and foremost want to extract as much money from the buyer as possible, and if they think they can get x million, then they will try to get that. Our only real negotiation tool is to walk away from the deal and not buy the player, which I'm sure happens in a fair few cases. But sometimes we really really want the player.
For the rest of what I was going to say, just refer to DeeDee above, he said it better anyway.
we seem to consistently go for the wrong profile of player in terms of keeping costs down
there are so many bargains to be had, from release clauses, players running their contracts down, relegated players, or just players in financially inferior leagues...
but we don't seem to focus on that kind of value
I definitely see the advantage of paying big for PL ready players, but we need to blend that strategy with the type of value purchase you see the likes of Dortmund/Juve also pick up
there are so many bargains to be had, from release clauses, players running their contracts down, relegated players, or just players in financially inferior leagues...
but we don't seem to focus on that kind of value
I definitely see the advantage of paying big for PL ready players, but we need to blend that strategy with the type of value purchase you see the likes of Dortmund/Juve also pick up
Tell that to every other clubs that manage to sign better players for less money.
the reality is that the club doesn’t stand their ground and inevitably gives in to the other club when a better run club would have moved on to the next target for a more realistic price.
We need to stop kidding ourselves that only world class players would improve the team, when we could make do with better quality squad players.
Who doesn't get fleeced though? The only one I can think of is Liverpool since klopp took over. Look at Chelsea's signings over the past few years they got fleeced on those. Cash strapped Arsenal made a huge commitment for Pepe. How much has city spent on Otamendi, stones, Mangala and Mendy?
Where we get fleeced is the wages though, that's day light robbery and the main reason why we can't sell our flopps for good money. If we had signed Morata instead of Chelsea we would have gave him an insane contract and not been able to recoup as much as Chelsea did. That's where Chelsea has everyone beat the ability to sell dross for a lot of money. Only Liverpool can compare.
Where we get fleeced is the wages though, that's day light robbery and the main reason why we can't sell our flopps for good money. If we had signed Morata instead of Chelsea we would have gave him an insane contract and not been able to recoup as much as Chelsea did. That's where Chelsea has everyone beat the ability to sell dross for a lot of money. Only Liverpool can compare.
£18 million for Matt Doherty is a great deal for Spurs although Jose will tell him stop attacking .
If we were trying to sign we’d be looking at £48 million
If we were trying to sign we’d be looking at £48 million
It takes a hundred prospects for one successful transfer. We need to look broad and wide in order to always have alternatives should a target not get over the line.
Chilwell seems cheap, just reading he was on a contract to 2024.
Where is the long drawn out saga of Leicester wanting 65 million and Brenden interviews? I don't feel we would've got him for 45 million just like that and the likes of Chelsea have more money. If Leicester told Chelsea told it's 60 million or feck off they'd have to pay but for some reason there's no agro and they put a ribbon on it.
Where is the long drawn out saga of Leicester wanting 65 million and Brenden interviews? I don't feel we would've got him for 45 million just like that and the likes of Chelsea have more money. If Leicester told Chelsea told it's 60 million or feck off they'd have to pay but for some reason there's no agro and they put a ribbon on it.
Madrid wanted around 90m for Morata to United and sold him to Chelsea for 60m
The media inflates our figures.
A 10 million signing becomes 30 million because they've included the players 4 million a year salary for 5 years.
Not sure if we are the only club they do this for but it feels that way
A 10 million signing becomes 30 million because they've included the players 4 million a year salary for 5 years.
Not sure if we are the only club they do this for but it feels that way
We must have improved lately or Pogba would be in Madrid by now and we’d have less than what we paid for him in return.
Absolutely agree. Sort of thing you say to investors etc in private. Not in public. I don't know how someone in his position thought that was a good idea.
I think if we were a consistent CL team now (and with a competent Chief Exec), we wouldn't have these problems. Teams smell the desperation I think and despite what we say to the media, we never actually seem to have a plan B. We fail with plan A and then are left scrambling for scraps.
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The same Chelsea also paid 72m for a guy who would be fourth choice gk at Manchester United.
Bilbao did what I was saying. Saw Chelsea can pay and nailed their hat on.
Our last signing was Bruno Fernandes. Played half a season. 25 years old. Already has a ridiculous goals and assists record. Great mentality. Immediately improved the first XI.
We paid, what, £43m? Slightly more than Everton paid for Iwobe. Much less than Spurs paid for Ndombele, or Arsenal paid for Pepe. Chelsea Kepa. Etc etc etc etc
Point being, we dont always get fleeced in the transfer market, and besides, how many United fans are out there saying 'just pay the money dammit!' for Sancho?
We paid, what, £43m? Slightly more than Everton paid for Iwobe. Much less than Spurs paid for Ndombele, or Arsenal paid for Pepe. Chelsea Kepa. Etc etc etc etc
Point being, we dont always get fleeced in the transfer market, and besides, how many United fans are out there saying 'just pay the money dammit!' for Sancho?
3m more than what Everton paid for Sigurdsson.
Oh i read it mate.
Ok so they’re not football people now. But they’re respected by “football people”.
Is Roman really respected by “football people”?
Why what’s he done except spend a lot of cash?
That’s fair enough but Woodward’s been in football since 2005. I’m wondering why others are considered “football people” but not Woodward.
Sancho is a 200m deal, they went back to adding wages because 110m-120m wasn't big enough.
Well, considering both have followed football their entire lives, with Levy holding a Spurs season ticket for years, I’m gonna say yes?
I don’t know about Woodward, the Glazers are definitely not football people though.
Surprised they don't factor in his pension, cost of insurance, factor in inflation for the next 10 years at 2-3% a year even post covid and then chuck any childcare costs on top after assuming he will have 9 kids because he's the next Raheem Sterling
If you think that Roman and Levy aren't respected in football circles and negotiations I dunno what to tell you mate.
If you think Woodward IS, again I dunno what to say to you.
Abramovich's deals since arriving in the PL have been consistently ruthless - he's presided over Chelsea's most successful reign of all time.
Levy is a difficult, annoying, scrappy cnut that has kept a quality side on shoe-string wages compared to their worth and makes selling any player difficult and awkward if the buying team is PL based especially.
Woodward is a fecking muppet and a laughing stock in football circles. A literal comedy figure.
If you're incapable of grasping that, we'll just agree to disagree mate.
Cause yankees are shit negotiators
I didn’t call them cheap.
Was thinking about this the other day. I remember people saying we got fleeced when we signed Martial. Now he looks like an absolute bargain, compared to what the biggest clubs have been forking out for young players with similar potential . With young players (and I would put Maguire, James and AWB all in this category) it often takes hindsight to know what sort of value you got. Luke Shaw’s another that seemed crazy expensive but might look decent value after a few more seasons like the last one.
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I don't think we're getting fleeced, i just think we haven't been smart.
A players transfer fee is based on many factors, but a main one is the circumstance of the transfer: Length of contract, do his club need to sell?
I get why we paid what we did for Maguire. Circumstantially it was the only way Leicester would sell. Similar to what Dortmund seem to be doing with Sancho.
My only issue is that you see cheaper options out there, and have the same amount of talent, and would cost half the price.
The selling club is allowed to ask for what they want, it is United's job to assess if the player is worth the proposed fee, and if another option would be better.
I get that we pay whatever Sancho costs this summer, as we are talking about a potential ballon d'or winner at a certain age, and who is English. But in some cases, its better to walk away and look for a better deal.
A players transfer fee is based on many factors, but a main one is the circumstance of the transfer: Length of contract, do his club need to sell?
I get why we paid what we did for Maguire. Circumstantially it was the only way Leicester would sell. Similar to what Dortmund seem to be doing with Sancho.
My only issue is that you see cheaper options out there, and have the same amount of talent, and would cost half the price.
The selling club is allowed to ask for what they want, it is United's job to assess if the player is worth the proposed fee, and if another option would be better.
I get that we pay whatever Sancho costs this summer, as we are talking about a potential ballon d'or winner at a certain age, and who is English. But in some cases, its better to walk away and look for a better deal.
Exactly this. We look at the players we want not their circumstances. Watch us try to sign Upamecano next year after letting his release clause expire this year.
Couldnt agree more. For me this topic is just another example of the general downer that our own fans seem to have against the club at the moment.
Was Maguire overpriced? Not for me. Not really. There is a surplus of quality centre backs around at the moment and everybody is looking for them. We got a young(ish), English, PL proven centre back who has already been made captain, which meant that he filled an obviously needed gap off the pitch as well as on it. We'll probably get nearly ten years out of him. Many of our fans were ready to spend a similar amount of Koubilaly - a much older player without that valuable comfort of not having to worry whether they'll settle here.
I think the club are wising up on transfers a little. We held out on Bruno and got a better price for it. He looks to be outstanding value so far. We did the same with AWB and kept the Zaha clause, which could be worth millions. We are now doing the same with Sancho.
As you say, transfers should always be judged at the end of that players career for the club. United have undoubtedly wasted a lot of money in recent years, and perhaps that has led certain clubs to believe that we are a 'mark'. If we have to miss out on a player or two to reset that opinion then it'll be worth it in the long term.
Nail on head
surely he should realise that he doesn’t have an eye for a player by now and delegate to someone who has a proven track record at the very least.
I'm sure Joel doesn't evaluate the player's abilities. He just checks to see if the club can afford to spend a large sum of money. Ed would probably convince him to spend larger sums from time to time, but that's as far as it'd go.
I'm also sure that Ed doesn't use his own eye when it comes to evaluating players. He'd take in the views of the scouts and our transfer committee and use them to base his view. He'd only use his own eye to evaluate managers; if a manager isn't doing that well for him, he'd probably not give them as much support (as evidenced in that summer of 2018).
Pretty sure the story was Roman watched his first game of football in 2003. United vs Real and it was what sparked his interest in owning a football club.
Levy yeah a well known life long football fan, as are many people.
Do you spend much time frequenting football circles mate? How do you know what people in these football circles think of these individuals?
I would suspect yeah Levy is respected as a shrew businessman and tough negotiator, Roman i doubt it but i wouldn't know or care same with Woodward.
My problem is this football people/person bollocks, it's a load of nonsense.