The only oversimplification is the idea that the protests are mostly riots (they’re not), and that the riots happen out of nowhere or without any preceding event. In this case were talking about 400 years of continued and intentional oppression.I think that is an oversimplification and ignores the individual experiences of people though. People having an issue with some of the things done by people under the banner of BLM and so not wanting to support that movement itself is not the same as not supporting the fight for equality.
Not even surprising. Whenever you see he's posted in one of these threads you don't even need to read the post to see which way he'll be arguing.Audit complete. No comments to add.
That rant came about due to a spate of shoplifting incidents... yes shoplifting.This adds a bit more context, but I agree, his rant is deep seeded, something had to have caused his psychosis. But, if he weathered that storm & was re-elected, no doubt he will continue to remain in office.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...-people-that-arent-worth-saving-aclu-1050971/
Is that really what you think I said? Like literally?So you were suggesting that the problems of america are due to Calodo burning and looting?
No but I still find those actions I describe counterproductive.so basically, black people can only expect equality when they & their allies act perfectly?
Which movement? Because it's important to remember that it's not a singular movement the US BLM movement that we are talking about in this thread, isn't the same movement as the UKBLM movement who in my opinion are opportunist who tried to gain viewage by using the term BLM in their name.I think that is an oversimplification and ignores the individual experiences of people though. People having an issue with some of the things done by people under the banner of BLM and so not wanting to support that movement itself is not the same as not supporting the fight for equality.
Explain what you said.Is that really what you think I said? Like literally?
Very true.Very little major social change ever occurs peacefully, its something that Governments haven't seemed to grasp yet. When an oppressed section of society doesn't see any change or any willingness to be listened to violence will spill over, I'm not saying the looting and criminality is in anyway excusable but its nothing new. Until the police in America has some proper training in deescalating situations and stop shooting in situations they have no reason to these protests / riots will continue, while they are at it sort out the idiotic gun laws that are a massive root cause of the problem.
Counterproductive is subjective, and you’re entitled to your opinion - but the existence of riots should never stop someone supporting the cause, otherwise they didn’t support the cause in the first place.No but I still find those actions I describe counterproductive.
He told me to stop posting so I said this was akin to burning and looting instead of talking and debating. I think its a fair analogy the people out smashing cars and robbing people are not bothered to talk and debate.Explain what you said.
Okay, so the bolded part applies to whom? What are the problems you are referring to?He told me to stop posting so I said this was akin to burning and looting instead of talking and debating. I think its a fair analogy the people out smashing cars and robbing people are not bothered to talk and debate.
Is this actually in any way a valid point? Just shut down any arguments that you dislike? No wonder you have these problems you can’t handle opinions that you disagree with. Burning and looting has replaced debate and discussion.
The very small tiny minority of people not representative of the peaceful majority in any way, shape or form who don't want to debate and discuss issues and would rather resort to non debate and discuss methods to resolve matters like telling others to shut up.Okay, so the bolded part applies to whom? What are the problems you are referring to?
Yep, it’s staggering that such a crime was the spark that caused this rant. The ‘apology’ was embarrassing, but I commend him for sticking to his guns & saying that his rant was how he really felt. One doesn’t often self-own that well, I’m just glad he was honest about being a racist. Unfortunately his constituents apparently feel like himThat rant came about due to a spate of shoplifting incidents... yes shoplifting.
You may want to think that one again. Are you suggesting that the problems of the US are due to a minority that has been looting and burning things? You really don't see how almost all your answers end up being preposterous?The very small tiny minority of people not representative of the peaceful majority in any way, shape or form who don't want to debate and discuss issues and would rather resort to non debate and discuss methods to resolve matters like telling others to shut up.
I was actually telling you to stop posting so you wouldn’t continue to sound foolish, then you started throwing out non sequiturs.He told me to stop posting so I said this was akin to burning and looting instead of talking and debating. I think its a fair analogy the people out smashing cars and robbing people are not bothered to talk and debate.
I don't feel like anyone was suggesting they are all riots, I might've missed those comments though. I agree that these events haven't just come from nothing and anyone suggesting that they have obviously doesn't know what they're talking about. My point was more about people not being supportive of BLM doesn't mean they don't support equality. Personally couldn't say I know enough about the individual branches to even make a call on that.The only oversimplification is the idea that the protests are mostly riots (they’re not), and that the riots happen out of nowhere or without any preceding event. In this case were talking about 400 years of continued and intentional oppression.
Almost no societal change happens peacefully, unless you can inform me?
I don't think its your place to tell anyone to stop posting its not like you have contributed anything intelligent to the discussion. I've been consistent with my view that looting and burning is harmful to the objectives of the peaceful protestors. I'm curious now as to your education level and why it means so much to you. Are you even a grad?I was actually telling you to stop posting so you wouldn’t continue to sound foolish, then you started throwing out non sequiturs.
I support the cause which is not at all exclusive to the BLM organization. So let's say my support to the BLM organization and the movement is mixed.Counterproductive is subjective, and you’re entitled to your opinion - but the existence of riots should never stop someone supporting the cause, otherwise they didn’t support the cause in the first place.
Only someone who doesn’t understand what BLM is, thinks that not supporting BLM and still being in support of equality can exist together.I don't feel like anyone was suggesting they are all riots, I might've missed those comments though. I agree that these events haven't just come from nothing and anyone suggesting that they have obviously doesn't know what they're talking about. My point was more about people not being supportive of BLM doesn't mean they don't support equality. Personally couldn't say I know enough about the individual branches to even make a call on that.
I can't even pretend to know much about every societal change through history but the ones I have some knowledge of do tend to non-peaceful actions. It comes as a last resort thing when people have tried other avenues and nothing has been done.
Some people just take an issue with anything that affects their normal routine though, blocking a bit of traffic in the UK had people up in arms and I think everyone knows how hard life became for people watching a guy take a knee during a national anthem.
What do you understand ‘the cause’ to be?I support the cause which is not at all exclusive to the BLM organization. So let's say my support to the BLM organization and the movement is mixed.
If I was American I would certainly vote for anyone but the republicans because they amongst other things most certainly the most racists of the 2 biggest parties.
Quite the narrow minded, narcissistic view you have there. And you berate others for not being amenable to your viewpoints. To answer your question, yes, I’ve graduated college with multiple degrees, all germane to the topic. I obviously fall short of your rigorous academic standards of debate as I have apparently offered nothing to the conversation. Or, your panties are still sandy & twisted from my offering of advice to not go down your road of thinking & embarrass yourself further. Regardless, chatting with you is chock full of tedium, somewhat akin to the pigeon / chess analogy.I don't think its your place to tell anyone to stop posting its not like you have contributed anything intelligent to the discussion. I've been consistent with my view that looting and burning is harmful to the objectives of the peaceful protestors. I'm curious now as to your education level and why it means so much to you. Are you even a grad?
You have indeed been found wanting on an intellectual level and you have done nothing but brought down the average IQ in this thread. I think you should do us all a favor and not procreate. Like ever. Spare us the ignominy of having to deal with unnecessarily verbose intellectual lightweights who think sounding smart will make up for not actually having anything smart to say.Quite the narrow minded, narcissistic view you have there. And you berate others for not being amenable to your viewpoints. To answer your question, yes, I’ve graduated college with multiple degrees, all germane to the topic. I obviously fall short of your rigorous academic standards of debate as I have apparently offered nothing to the conversation. Or, your panties are still sandy & twisted from my offering of advice to not go down your road of thinking & embarrass yourself further. Regardless, chatting with you is chock full of tedium, somewhat akin to the pigeon / chess analogy.
Yeah, that's sort of what I mean. I don't think people saying they aren't behind BLM means they don't support the underlying focus of pushing for equality.Which movement? Because it's important to remember that it's not a singular movement the US BLM movement that we are talking about in this thread, isn't the same movement as the UKBLM movement who in my opinion are opportunist who tried to gain viewage by using the term BLM in their name.
I get why people who only looked at it from afar may mix things, I have even seen papers mix them in articles about these movements but people should pay closer attention.
In what way do you think UKBLM is opportunist?Which movement? Because it's important to remember that it's not a singular movement the US BLM movement that we are talking about in this thread, isn't the same movement as the UKBLM movement who in my opinion are opportunist who tried to gain viewage by using the term BLM in their name.
I get why people who only looked at it from afar may mix things, I have even seen papers mix them in articles about these movements but people should pay closer attention.
HAHAHAHAYou have indeed been found wanting on an intellectual level and you have done nothing but brought down the average IQ in this thread. I think you should do us all a favor and not procreate. Like ever. Spare us the ignominy of having to deal with unnecessarily verbose intellectual lightweights who think sounding smart will make up for not actually having anything smart to say.
Not an insult though just advice for you.
Christ almighty, are you talking into a mirror? Sorry if my vocabulary is offputting to you (cute retort, though, especially with all the words you have tossed into our conversation), but your insistence on trying to play both sides of the fence in this debate while trying to sound measured & erudite (dammit, sorry). Your knowledge or understanding of the civil rights struggle in this country is shockingly limited & is obviously swayed by recent events. That’s why I told you to stop posting about the struggle in this country. Oh well, at least I am not going to call you a Nazi for your eugenics suggestion, I’m just going to take it in stride considering from whom the post came.You have indeed been found wanting on an intellectual level and you have done nothing but brought down the average IQ in this thread. I think you should do us all a favor and not procreate. Like ever. Spare us the ignominy of having to deal with unnecessarily verbose intellectual lightweights who think sounding smart will make up for not actually having anything smart to say.
Not an insult though just advice for you.
Do you the organisation or the words? I don't think you need to support any particular organisation to support a cause.Only someone who doesn’t understand what BLM is, thinks that not supporting BLM and still being in support of equality can exist together.
Yes, non-peaceful attempts at equality have failed & after 400 years, people are fed up.
Protests are meant to be disruptive, it’s in its definition - to care more about your normal routine being disrupted when peoples lives are not valued is to be in a position of privilege & apathy, so excuse me if I don’t have any sympathy for those people.
What do you understand ‘the cause’ to be?
What do you understand the ‘BLM organisation’ to be?
Their name, I don't think that their name fits with their goal which is a social project that includes pretty much all social fields for everyone. They have a respectable political agenda that isn't really about BLM, so I have wondered why they are named BLM. It'ts different to BLM UK or Blacklivesmatters.com who are focused on black communities and systemic racism.In what way do you think UKBLM is opportunist?
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Well it's pretty comphrensive.Only someone who doesn’t understand what BLM is, thinks that not supporting BLM and still being in support of equality can exist together.
Yes, non-peaceful attempts at equality have failed & after 400 years, people are fed up.
Protests are meant to be disruptive, it’s in its definition - to care more about your normal routine being disrupted when peoples lives are not valued is to be in a position of privilege & apathy, so excuse me if I don’t have any sympathy for those people.
What do you understand ‘the cause’ to be?
What do you understand the ‘BLM organisation’ to be?
Thanks much for that Intercept article. Amazing that it was written back in 2017. If ever an article needed a refresh, it’s this one.Jason Wilson is a reporter who covered ties between the Portland police and the militaias since about 2018, pretty chilling stuff.
Also:
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31...-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/
They acknowledge the public execution and systematic racism of people of color but chose to spend a number of pages arguing that the loss of some over priced Nike's and some property damage negates the whole message.It's funny how people get so up in arms about innocent business owners having their stuff destroyed, when innocent minorities have their lives ruined on a daily basis. Neither things are good, but I don't remember all of the people up in arms about the former speaking so loudly about the latter?
How do you think any of this will be achieved? Given that almost all societal changes occur a period of violence &/or civil unrest.Well it's pretty comphrensive.
https://www.eurasiareview.com/15072020-what-does-black-lives-matter-believe-oped/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+eurasiareview/VsnE+(Eurasia+Review)
Some stuff I agree with, but there are also some things I find pretty unrealistic.
But in short I support:
Racial equality before the law
Exposing police brutality and reforming police methods so less people are harmed or killed
Fighting cultural imbedded racism.
BLM is a cause. The ‘organisation’ aspect is for the purposes of donations & such. There’s no leader of BLM.Do you the organisation or the words? I don't think you need to support any particular organisation to support a cause.
Oh I'm of a similar mindset in terms of disruption. The the systems in place are what's led to this point, that's why people are out in the streets and they need a complete overhaul.
Their name is accurate, they are for the equality of black lives with a focus in the UK. I’ve been heavily involved with some of activities a few years ago, and still have friends who volunteer for various events.Their name, I don't think that their name fits with their goal which is a social project that includes pretty much all social fields for everyone. They have a respectable political agenda that isn't really about BLM, so I have wondered why they are named BLM. It'ts different to BLM UK or Blacklivesmatters.com who are focused on black communities and systemic racism.
I think maybe wrongly that they picked the name BLM because it had traction due to the US movement.
Because you have every right as a person to live your life. Average joe who have some small shop have every right to say; " Ok, i know that minorities have problems but i don't care. Don't put me in the middle of your fight.". Of course that black people also have right to fight for their cause but is that shop owner guilty for something? NoIt's funny how people get so up in arms about innocent business owners having their stuff destroyed, when innocent minorities have their lives ruined on a daily basis. Neither things are good, but I don't remember all of the people up in arms about the former speaking so loudly about the latter?
Considering one of the key leaders of BLM stated anti capitalism is anti racism I don't think it's that ridiculous. But this is the hardcore lot at the top who hold many far left crazy ideas. Maybe the normal BLM members aren't like that.You keep saying these things without citing any sources.
BLM is not a homogenous group. It's just people who are not racist, fighting for racial equality. If you say you support BLM, then guess what? You're also part of this group.
In any group of individuals you will find people with differing, opposing & extreme views - those people are not representative of the entire group.
Unless what you're suggesting is people who are fighting for racial equality are also anti-capitalist. You see how ridiculous that sounds?
Secondly - you keep bringing politics in to it, which further shows your lack of understanding. To believe BLM is political, is to believe that racism is political - and therefore anyone who doesn't support BLM (which, in your words is 'too left leaning') is not only Right leaning, but also racist. Another ridiculous statement which I hope you can understand.
Once again, I leave you with this:
- Define what the message of BLM is
- What is the political leaning of BLM, with citations
Yeah I don't see number 2 happening, sadly. It smells an awful lot like communism and with that being the case I'll stick to fascism, thank you very much.There are only 2 ways this can head from this point, in my view.
1) an ever worsening cycle of resentment and violence
Or
2) a change in policing culture and accountability as well as transformative investment in the underlying causes of poor educational and economic opportunities in the poorest communities in an effort to improve equality
Given this is the US we are talking about, I expect number one to happen.
Who is this 'leader'? Also what is your response to my previous post to you?Considering one of the key leaders of BLM stated anti capitalism is anti racism I don't think it's that ridiculous. But this is the hardcore lot at the top who hold many far left crazy ideas. Maybe the normal BLM members aren't like that.
You keep saying these things without citing any sources.
BLM is not a homogenous group. It's just people who are not racist, fighting for racial equality. If you say you support BLM, then guess what? You're also part of this group.
In any group of individuals you will find people with differing, opposing & extreme views - those people are not representative of the entire group.
Unless what you're suggesting is people who are fighting for racial equality are also anti-capitalist. You see how ridiculous that sounds?
Secondly - you keep bringing politics in to it, which further shows your lack of understanding. To believe BLM is political, is to believe that racism is political - and therefore anyone who doesn't support BLM (which, in your words is 'too left leaning') is not only Right leaning, but also racist. Another ridiculous statement which I hope you can understand.
Once again, I leave you with this:
- Define what the message of BLM is
- What is the political leaning of BLM, with citations
Because you have every right as a person to live your life. Average joe who have some small shop have every right to say; " Ok, i know that minorities have problems but i don't care. Don't put me in the middle of your fight.". Of course that black people also have right to fight for their cause but is that shop owner guilty for something? No
Attitudes such as this are precisely why racism continues to not get solved, and it isn't uncommon.MLK said:I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
If you want to see what BLM stand for in terms of racial equality then go to their website. The ideas on the face of it are sensible ones that anybody can agree with. But then you start digging deeper and find their ideas for achieving this are nutty. Shutting prisons, bringing down capitalism etc. It's just not very palatable to me and misguided in the extreme when it comes to some of their views on the legal system.Who is this 'leader'? Also what is your response to my previous post to you?
Joshua Virasami is not a leader of BLM, I suggest you stop reading the Daily Mail. He's an activist who gets involved in many causes, and has controversial views - because of his views, the media tends to paint him as some sort of spokesperson for the causes he gets involved in. On BLM specifically, he isn't a leader because there are no leaders in BLM.If you want to see what BLM stand for in terms of racial equality then go to their website. The ideas on the face of it are sensible ones that anybody can agree with. But then you start digging deeper and find their ideas for achieving this are nutty. Shutting prisons, bringing down capitalism etc. It's just not very palatable to me and misguided in the extreme when it comes to some of their views on the legal system.
Joshua Virasami - "Anti-racism is anti-capitalist, and vice versa. There are no two ways around it. An end to racism demands transformation of the global political-economic setup."
You keep saying these things without citing any sources.
BLM is not a homogenous group. It's just people who are not racist, fighting for racial equality. If you say you support BLM, then guess what? You're also part of this group.
In any group of individuals you will find people with differing, opposing & extreme views - those people are not representative of the entire group.
Unless what you're suggesting is people who are fighting for racial equality are also anti-capitalist. You see how ridiculous that sounds?
Secondly - you keep bringing politics in to it, which further shows your lack of understanding. To believe BLM is political, is to believe that racism is political - and therefore anyone who doesn't support BLM (which, in your words is 'too left leaning') is not only Right leaning, but also racist. Another ridiculous statement which I hope you can understand.
Once again, I leave you with this:
- Define what the message of BLM is
- What is the political leaning of BLM, with citations
