Protests following the killing of George Floyd

[Wibble]

I also wonder where people get the idea that Britain isn't a racist country? Like privileged there are degrees. Institutional racism clearly exists in the UK. Not being as bad another named country or as bad as we used to be doesn't mean we aren't a racist country. Look at things like healthcare access and outcomes, income, the likelihood of being randomly stopped by the police, university entry, the likelihood of getting a job interview depending on how white your name sounds and hundreds of other things.

Where I now live is better than the UK in many ways particularly in the cities but worse in some places, particularly country towns. We are still have a horrendous blind-spot when it comes to Aboriginal people. On that issue it is interesting how common implicit bias is when it comes to race, even if many people who do have a bias would be horrified to know that. Bias doesn't automatically result in racism but it sure makes institutional racism incredibly likely.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ed-against-indigenous-australians-study-finds

 

[ChaddyP]

A fundamental, bottom up, “scrap it all and start again” reimagining of the police is exactly what is needed and as much as “defund” might not immediate get across the nuance of the idea it’s good enough imo.

I totally agree with you. Its actually a fantastic idea imo.

 

[carvajal]

Can't people already do that? Oh, they can and the public purse pays for it.

Trust clearly doesn't exist anymore. That's why we want them all wearing body cams.
Who's criminalizing them? Bad police officers get to hide behind their badge and the thin blue line while society pays the consequences for their litany of errors and abuses. Making them take on some of that responsibility will improve policing.

There are many public servants, who do not lose working conditions by making a mistake, since not all mistakes will consist of a sadist suffocating someone.
The cameras sound good, but also incredibly expensive and difficult to manage.
You spend a lot in an institution that you don't trust or you leave them without money, enhancing private security, which will only favor a part of the population.
In the long run the citizen and the authority have to trust each other, so I would bet on changing access, training and law study, however I am lost there, I only know about my country, where It is not an easy process, and where a certain rectitude and control is required, to assess whether you are worth it to act on the street. I think I remember that a Norwegian poster said that there they had 3 years of academy!

 

[dumbo]

Defund the police is a stroke of brilliance. When you have an out of control racist and violent organisation, one that is financially backed by the government and ultimately funded by tax payers, how do you begin to reign it in?

You can get out on the street and start smashing it with sticks, but then they can afford bigger sticks. You can peacefully chant slogans in the hope that they will listen, but the syllabus of violence and racism has the benefit of being institutionally ingrained.

Or you can go after their funding, which should shock them to the core, posing them an existential threat. If you continue to kill black people you don't get your allowance. If you beat non violent protesters and target minorities with racist policies then no treats for you. If you push old people to the floor and shoot disabled homeless people then no money for the arcades.

It's largely the people's money and they should be able to campaign to have it spent in a way that serves the people and not racist hegemonies.

Yet a well run police force that puts the public's interest first can be of huge benefit to a society. So when that type is put in place you incentivise it by funding it.

 

[adexkola]

Yeah defund the police

We've gutted other parts of the public sector for years and they do a better job than the police

I don't expect Biden to endorse it, it's not his decision anyway it's a local/state issue. Cut budgets in half and reassign to community development, mental health, the fire department, libraries, job placement... All that good shit

 

[Nanook]

I also wonder where people get the idea that Britain isn't a racist country? Like privileged there are degrees. Institutional racism clearly exists in the UK. Not being as bad another named country or as bad as we used to be doesn't mean we aren't a racist country. Look at things like healthcare access and outcomes, income, the likelihood of being randomly stopped by the police, university entry, the likelihood of getting a job interview depending on how white your name sounds and hundreds of other things.

Where I now live is better than the UK in many ways particularly in the cities but worse in some places, particularly country towns. We are still have a horrendous blind-spot when it comes to Aboriginal people. On that issue it is interesting how common implicit bias is when it comes to race, even if many people who do have a bias would be horrified to know that. Bias doesn't automatically result in racism but it sure makes institutional racism incredibly likely.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ed-against-indigenous-australians-study-finds

Blacks and Asians are more likely to go to university than whites in the UK.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ts-twice-likely-go-university-white-students/

People of some ethnic backgrounds are more likely to be stopped by police but these races tend to be the ones committing a disproportionate amount of crime and violent crime in particular so you’d expect higher rates of police interaction. Having said that blacks are almost 10 times more likely than whites to be stopped and search which even if you adjust for the higher crime rates does seem disproportionate. White Brits are three times more likely to be stopped and search than Chinese people in the UK.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...e-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest

 

[amolbhatia50k]

This was good... But it has me confused. What does "defund the police" really mean. Because here hes basically saying I'm stupid to think it means abolish police And law enforcement... But then this chap is telling me nah nah... Police aren't needed.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

This doesn't seem to be a fringe position

I'm not sure what to make of it And maybe I'm naive to think that some level of law enforcement is needed in society.

What a moronic tweet that is. And I don't get all this defund the police business. Sure, if too much money is pumped into the police system then it should be decreased. But it doesn't seem to strike at the heart of the actual problem which is to do with mindset, leadership, processes, accountability etc

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah defund the police

We've gutted other parts of the public sector for years and they do a better job than the police

I don't expect Biden to endorse it, it's not his decision anyway it's a local/state issue. Cut budgets in half and reassign to community development, mental health, the fire department, libraries, job placement... All that good shit

This is a good idea. But it's more to do with better administration/development rather than tackling racism, isn't it?

 

[adexkola]

What a moronic tweet that is. And I don't get all this defund the police business. Sure, if too much money is pumped into the police system then it should be decreased. But it doesn't seem to strike at the heart of the actual problem which is to do with mindset, leadership, processes, accountability etc

All that is bullshit because even the best meaning police departments kill innocent black people and are a vital cog of the prison industrial complex. Good people can still work harm in a fecked up system. And given that system has been brutal for over 100 years it's too late to say let's refurbish it. Tear the bitch down and let's start over, with the first aim of community service and actually protecting the public, not terrorizing it

And also, yes, too much money is spent on police to the detriment of other public services.

 

[adexkola]

This is a good idea. But it's more to do with better administration/development rather than tackling racism, isn't it?

What happens when good cops actively resist change/accountability through their powerful unions, assisted by prosecutors?

 

[dumbo]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Based on a few of his other tweets, it might be the case that he is saying that if you are speaking on the murder of a helpless black man, then you shouldn't be focusing support on maintaining a police presence in the same breath.

He might also be calling for a lawless society but it doesn't read that way to me. I could be wrong.

The "But" might suggest a conditional.

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

I deleted it because I thought I'd regret it tbh, as soon as your views don't entirely align with the majority you get "racist" flung at you. It's absolutely disgusting behaviour.

It's this new far left movement going on now in society. Lots of social justice warriors if you don't say the politically "right" things all the time. For the record I'm on the left, but each year starting move towards the other side because of how this new far left is forming.

 

[Sky1981]

Does people really believe these Antifa bullshit?

Seriously this is banana republic level of scapegoating

 

[reelworld]

It's this new far left movement going on now in society. Lots of social justice warriors if you don't say the politically "right" things all the time. For the record I'm on the left, but each year starting move towards the other side because of how this new far left is forming.

you still haven't answered which part of Candace Owen argument you think is correct or worth debating.

 

[Bobcat]

Yeah defund the police

We've gutted other parts of the public sector for years and they do a better job than the police

I don't expect Biden to endorse it, it's not his decision anyway it's a local/state issue. Cut budgets in half and reassign to community development, mental health, the fire department, libraries, job placement... All that good shit

It needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up. Between almost zero accountability and punishment for bad conduct, steady militarization and a pretty rotten culture its no wonder its gotten as bad as it has. What i find strange though is this weird obsession and glorification of law enforcement and military in America. "Stand for our troops and our police officers"

 

[amolbhatia50k]

All that is bullshit because even the best meaning police departments kill innocent black people and are a vital cog of the prison industrial complex. Good people can still work harm in a fecked up system. And given that system has been brutal for over 100 years it's too late to say let's refurbish it. Tear the bitch down and let's start over, with the first aim of community service and actually protecting the public, not terrorizing it

And also, yes, too much money is spent on police to the detriment of other public services.

What happens when good cops actively resist change/accountability through their powerful unions, assisted by prosecutors?

I don't know what happens. But the system has to be changed not done away with. Tearing it down just sounds like a fancy way of describing change and reform. Throttling the existing system out of spite isn't actually going to help nor will it be allowed to happen.

That's how it is everywhere. Our politicians are terrible here, but burning down the entire system is never the answer. It's a convenient fringe element answer. Not a reasonable and constructive one. Of course sometimes a jarring message which isn't practically proposed but intended to alarm, can work, but it can also be taken as the genuine view and reduce your (not your) argument.

 

[SirAnderson]

Guess protest fatigue is in full swing. Used to wake up every morning to at least 5 new pages on updates and the like, now it didn't even more off page 147.
Really hope the silence is down to the changes happening in the background!
Feck if it goes back to like nothing happened. Or just another "blip" in the era of United Facistrump of America.

 

[Wibble]

Blacks and Asians are more likely to go to university than whites in the UK.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ts-twice-likely-go-university-white-students/

It doesn't actually say that, referring only to "among the nation’s most deprived students", which is confusing because the data they state later doesn't seem to be restricted in this way. And there are all sorts of other effects e.g. retention/completion, grades, admittance to top end Unis and post graduate employment where being white is a big advantage.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Even without considering the usual, expected stuff (distraction from their own failings, right-wing reactionary tendencies etc), I find the government's overreaction to the statue-toppling to be completely bizarre. I mean, we have the PM, Home Secretary and other high-ups doing press conferences, Johnson writing newspaper articles about it and so on, while their MPs call for the 'full force of the law' to be applied to those responsible...for the overthrow of a piece of metal far away from London. What gives? It was hardly the first blow of a revolution or even that Colston was a figure of such Conservative standing that the politicians were bound to be appalled...

It’s a big old dead cat designed to make the people angry at the ‘left’.

Ultimately they want us talking about a stupid statue and not 60k dead/brexit about to bum us all.

 

[Zlaatan]

Some positive things are starting to happen in the US. That books on systemic racism are in high demand is probably the best news since it shows that people actually want to learn about this.

 

[Sara125]

I was specifically calling you out on your view that the UK is a racist country, name me a country which isn't a racist country going by your logic?

And yes go on, so the government are all racists too? So your labeling the conservative party a racist party? Is there a government or party that are not racist in the world according to you? Im just going by your logic here that these are very valid questions going by your line of thinking here

Why are you doing all this yes, the UK is a racist country I stand by what I said. Yes, the Conservative party are racist. I am not familiar with the nature of politics in every country or how racist they are. I am talking about the UK because I am from here and I am familiar with it. Plus the other poster said the UK is not a racist country which was what I initially responded to; I don’t understand why you are bringing up other countries or what your end goal here even is???

 

[balaks]

Why are you doing all this yes, the UK is a racist country I stand by what I said. Yes, the Conservative party are racist. I am not familiar with the nature of politics in every country or how racist they are. I am talking about the UK because I am from here and I am familiar with it. Plus the other poster said the UK is not a racist country which was what I initially responded to; I don’t understand why you are bringing up other countries or what your end goal here even is???

I disagree with this. Does the UK have racist people within it? Yes absolutely. Does this make the UK a 'racist country'? Absolutely not. We have laws in place to legislate against racism in the UK and generally it is one of the most multi-cultural countries in Europe. Let's not tar an entire country with one brush shall we?

 

[Sara125]

I agree with you except for the notion that were a racist country, I think it's insulting to the people of that nation who in the large majority are not racist. Do you describe even the most kindest of person a 'hateful person' because a few times in his life he demonstrated hate? Im just not comfortable with your and @Sara125 sweeping generalizations which is from a tiny minority.

Another one that seems to be unable to comprehend what is being said and wants to die on their hill of ignorance. No one is saying every single individual Brit is racist, even though a lot of the British public are though racism here usually presents itself more subtly than, say, America.

Do you know what institutional and systemic racisms are?

 

[villain]

I disagree with this. Does the UK have racist people within it? Yes absolutely. Does this make the UK a 'racist country'? Absolutely not. We have laws in place to legislate against racism in the UK and generally it is one of the most multi-cultural countries in Europe. Let's not tar an entire country with one brush shall we?

What exactly do you think racism is, that black and ethnic minorities have to deal with?

 

[Sara125]

I disagree with this. Does the UK have racist people within it? Yes absolutely. Does this make the UK a 'racist country'? Absolutely not. We have laws in place to legislate against racism in the UK and generally it is one of the most multi-cultural countries in Europe. Let's not tar an entire country with one brush shall we?

Omg. The UK is absolutely a racist country I have explained why. From individuals all the way up to the government. Also, you are saying it is one of the most multi-cultural countries but look at how a lot of Brits take to multiculturalism. They want ‘their Britain’ back.

 

[JPRouve]

I disagree with this. Does the UK have racist people within it? Yes absolutely. Does this make the UK a 'racist country'? Absolutely not. We have laws in place to legislate against racism in the UK and generally it is one of the most multi-cultural countries in Europe. Let's not tar an entire country with one brush shall we?

What do you mean by that in the context of racism/xenophobia?

 

[Withnail]

It's this new far left movement going on now in society. Lots of social justice warriors if you don't say the politically "right" things all the time. For the record I'm on the left, but each year starting move towards the other side because of how this new far left is forming.

Totally off topic but be careful of the YouTube rabbit holes you go down if you're susceptible to believing stuff like that plandemic thing.

That video can easily be debunked by a bit of googling as can most conspiracy theories. When videos are taken down it's usually for spreading misinformation rather than censorship because 'they' don't want you to know something. Anyone claiming a cover up/conspiracy should be treated with healthy amount of scepticism imo, until there's verified proof.
I mean the papers love a real cover up story and there's been plenty of exposés and whistleblowers over the years so the idea that all of the media worldwide would all be in on it is bizarre.

But I digress, do be careful though. I've a couple of people who used to be in my social circle and started talking along the lines you are and are now full on 5G causes cancer/George Soros and the UN are in league with the govt and also funding antifa activists/Chemtrails are poisoning us/911 was an inside job/we need a revolution crackpots.

 

[balaks]

Omg. The UK is absolutely a racist country I have explained why. From individuals all the way up to the government. Also, you are saying it is one of the most multi-cultural countries but look at how a lot of Brits take to multiculturalism. They want ‘their Britain’ back.

I think it's unfair and untrue to say the entire country is racist.

 

[Cardboard elk]

Political correctness is a huge problem imo. But so is racism. Both can exist at the same time. Extremes are seldom good.

 

[Sara125]

I think it's unfair and untrue to say the entire country is racist.

I think from now on I’m just going to have to agree to disagree with people because I sound like a broken record constantly explaining the same thing...

 

[balaks]

I think from now on I’m just going to have to agree to disagree with people because I sound like a broken record constantly explaining the same thing...

That's fine - I'm just expressing my own opinion on it - I just hate seeing sweeping statements tarring millions of people with the same brush. You think otherwise and that's fine. I'm not looking an argument just expressing my own opinion.

 

[JPRouve]

you still haven't answered which part of Candace Owen argument you think is correct or worth debating.

You asked the question several times so I will answer, none of it. The premise is by itself wrong, the police aren't executioners, they are not supposed to kill people outside of self defense or if someone is an immediate threat to others and there is no other options. From the moment she focuses on George Floyd's past instead of focusing on the fact that the officers had him cuffed and should have put him in their car way before he died, she is basically making the point that the police can ignore the judicial system, that they can be judges and executioners. Whether Floyd was a good person or not is irrelevant, whether he was going to turn things around was also irrelevant.

 

[JPRouve]

Political correctness is a huge problem imo. But so is racism. Both can exist at the same time. Extremes are seldom good.

What has political correctness got to do with this and at which point did you tell yourself that it was a good idea to put racism and political correctness in the same sentence?

 

[villain]

I think from now on I’m just going to have to agree to disagree with people because I sound like a broken record constantly explaining the same thing...

And then when we are angry or upset due to a lifetime of such infuriating interactions on top of having to live with the racism in the first place - we're told that our behaviour won't 'help our cause'
You have to laugh.

 

[Sara125]

And then when we are angry or upset due to a lifetime of such infuriating interactions on top of having to live with the racism in the first place - we're told that our behaviour won't 'help our cause'
You have to laugh.

Honestly villain it’s so tiring!

 

[balaks]

And then when we are angry or upset due to a lifetime of such infuriating interactions on top of having to live with the racism in the first place - we're told that our behaviour won't 'help our cause'
You have to laugh.

I wholeheartedly agree with the protests (with social distancing please) and I think it's disgusting what happened in America and I have no doubt that black people experience racism throughout their lives which is awful. You have my full support. I just don't think it's fair to say an entire country is racist. That is just my own opinion.

 

[villain]

Honestly villain it’s so tiring!

The gaslighting is enough to turn you mad, and that's not even the main issue!

 

[villain]

I wholeheartedly agree with the protests (with social distancing please) and I think it's disgusting what happened in America and I have no doubt that black people experience racism throughout their lives which is awful. You have my full support. I just don't think it's fair to say an entire country is racist. That is just my own opinion.

I'm more interested in what you think racism is.

 

[The Boy]

I think it's unfair and untrue to say the entire country is racist.

Tbf @Sara125 is not saying the entire country is racist. Read back through the thread or look up systemic and institutionalised racism. It doesn't mean Britain is full of gun toting racist nuts, it doesn't mean we have signs that say no blacks no Irish anymore and it doesn't mean that Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins are in anyway representative of the British people.

It means very simply that if you are a person of colour there are far more hurdles and obstacles in the system. It means there is a glass ceiling that white people don't have to struggle with in the same way and it is in every walk of life. There's a trend of under representation in just about every public body in the UK.

For example, just look at football managers and coaches, Raheem Sterling pointed out yesterday ex players getting jobs, Lampard goes to Derby then Chelsea and Gerrard straight to Rangers versus Sol Campbell at Macclesfield and then Southend and Ashley Cole on the coaching staff for the U15s at Chelsea - why? they all played for England, all understand the game, they've all done the same coaching badges. Why was Chris Hughton the only black manager in the prem? I dont know the stats but I'd make a rough guess that about a third of players are black. Where's the representation, why don't black people get the jobs? Systemic racism is why. And it is the same in almost any industry you care to look at.

The trouble is people do not like to see their country painted like this and find it difficult to accept because they do not think they are racist themselves and look back at the 70s and 80s and see how far we've come as a nation, I understand that. And that's true we have, overt and open racism has definitely dropped since then, but systemic and institutionalised are still a massive problem. That's been a huge part of these protests and we need to recognise it in the system and in ourselves and overcome it.

 

[balaks]

I'm more interested in what you think racism is.

Well it's hard for me to say as a white NI bloke who hasn't experienced it - I have however experienced some sectarianism in my life which may be comparable to some degree. To me when I think about racism it's a mixture of things - cultural bias towards one race, unconscious and conscious bias towards one group and unconscious and conscious negativity against another - lack of opportunity in certain areas which tend to contain particular groups of people from same background - lack of jobs, poor schools - more challenging for people from certain backgrounds to get into certain careers (police, government, etc.) and positions of influence. A lack of a voice/representation probably too, the feeling that people feel that your life matters less than others. That's just the tip of the iceberg I'm sure but all I can do is imagine it and it's not a pleasant thing to do.