Protests following the killing of George Floyd

dumbo

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Many talk about police's bias towards the black, but they fail to acknowledge their own bias. They presumably think Chauvin murdered Floyd due to racial profiling, solely based on so-called history and pattern without any evidence. Using the same metaphor as before, it's like a murderer must also be a rapist just because many killers rape their victims in the society.
I love the way you start with an attempt at a metaphor, give up half way through to try a syllogism, and when that fails too you simply revert to your stock in trade: incomprehensible garbage*.

*metaphor
 
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Port Vale Devil

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Another cop taking a knee :( Was before the current events but shows how common it can be.

 

The Boy

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I think most of the points have been addressed in #3427. I agree that black people are often treated unfairly by the cops, this includes being treated in a less lenient way etc. These are classic examples of racism, and people can always voice their dissent to these racist acts from time to time, but not making use of Floyd's death as it's a clear case of police brutality.

For the brutality part, however, I personally have some conservation. From the social experiment, the majority of participants including black people themselves were more likely to shoot at their black friend rather than a white stranger. While you may argue this is already a kind of racism, I think the definition would be too broad this way that basically everyone is a racist.

Many talk about police's bias towards the black, but they fail to acknowledge their own bias. They presumably think Chauvin murdered Floyd due to racial profiling, solely based on so-called history and pattern without any evidence. Using the same metaphor as before, it's like a murderer must also be a rapist just because many killers rape their victims in the society.

When a white man is knelt to death, it's police brutality; when a black man is killed in the same way, it's racism. It just doesn't make any sense. Those who see it this way are actually the greatest racists, because they view and categorize the same event differently. Now it seems people value black people higher than others, as their death arouses attention while few care about others.

Unlike others, I'm always prepared to change my mind, as soon as there is any direct evidence pointing to the involvement of racism in this particular case. Maybe someone would testify against him in the trial, maybe someome would leak some stories to the press. Honestly, I hope Chauvin can be proven a racist in the end, otherwise all these protests look far less legitimate and meaningful, as they have already been without a clear aim and a concrete demand.
Look up "shooting bias" this is a similar situation.

You don't need someone in a trial to testify that Chauvin had posted racist posts on FB or was a secret member of the KKK. That would make this an indiviual act of racism, this is not necessarily about individual acts (though it may well be) this is about institutional racism. The argument is Chauvin and many other police like him expected more problems and possibly violence from Floyd because of the colour of his skin and their preconceptions of what that meant.

What I mean is this. Police are more likely to shoot at a black person than a white person, this isn't necessarily because they hate black people. But they expect them to be more violent, they expect them to be more likely to have committed a crime - these are preconception and are just as racist as attacking a business because it is owned by black people.

What people arguing in this thread, that we don't know if this brutality was racially driven fail to get is that this institutional racism is endemic everywhere in the western world. Its the reason people are more likely in to hire a white person over a black person, more likely to want to rent their property to a white person rather than a black person, feel more comfortable with their daughter dating a white man than a black man etc etc. Their preconceptions make them fear.

A white person walking down the street late at night, are they more nervous of group of young black men hanging out on the corner or a group of young white men? The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people is everywhere and it is 100% racist and lots and lots people if they are honest with themselves will recognise this at one point or another in themselves.

The bigger questions are why? American history is obviously one thing, as there cannot be a white person on earth who doesn't understand that black America has been appallingly treated throughout the history of the US. But the media and popular culture has a lot to do with it as well, from everything from the Wire to New Jack City (2 random examples and certainly not saying that either are racist) paint a picture of black urban America as violent and gang ridden. Nerds, sensible people and goodies etc etc in movies and in books are rarely black and if the hero is black even then they often come packaged in a violent form, like Black Panther or Shaft (2 more random examples and not held up as racist films)

We are bombarded everyday by negative black stereotypes in US culture and sadly that is the dominant global culture now, this just builds those racist preconceptions in all sorts of people even those who would not for a second think they are racist.

On top of that segregation is rife in the US and has been for hundreds of years this in turn builds up an us and them culture which once again breeds institutional racism.

To argue that Chauvin's actions were not racist misses the point entirely, the black lives matter movement gets this, institutionally black lives are currently cheaper in the States than white lives.

This post has gone on much longer than I meant, but there are literally hundreds of books and papers written about this, I offer no answers or suggestions on how to fix this as I honestly don't know beyond individuals recognising it in themselves and working to overcome it.
 

Sky1981

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If it looks like a duck talks like a duck it is a duck.

Gotta love it when someone goes the extra lenght to defend chauffin. He doesnt need defending. I dont care if he's racist or just brutal and whatever happened i dont feel any remorse if he turns out to be just brutal. There are certain cases that needs the boook thrown at him, more than what's just because what he does is far from just.

Normally I'd try to see good in every man but this one is one special breed. I wont lose sleep if I'm the one assigned to pull his electric chair lever. He doesnt deserve an ounce of sympathy nor devil advocacy.

Arguing on semantics whether it's brutality or racism doesnt make you smart and objective. It only makes you insensitive to matters at hand. How'd you feel if you're black and people are dismissing this as simply brutality. Not racism. Yeah right it isnt.
 

Sky1981

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I took that to be someone (i.e. a shopkeeper) not believing you could afford something expensive? Which hasn’t happened to me.
Racist aside it's a good marketing trick.

We all had that story where a rich but at that time shabby man was belittled in a posh store and somehow comeback with a revenge later on.

Sadly they never hear the clerks jokes of having the sales of their lives by tricking this old rich geezer and playing to his ego by simply pretending to belittle him.
 
Systemic Racism/Reasons for Protest

africanspur

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I think most of the points have been addressed in #3427. I agree that black people are often treated unfairly by the cops, this includes being treated in a less lenient way etc. These are classic examples of racism, and people can always voice their dissent to these racist acts from time to time, but not making use of Floyd's death as it's a clear case of police brutality.

For the brutality part, however, I personally have some conservation. From the social experiment, the majority of participants including black people themselves were more likely to shoot at their black friend rather than a white stranger. While you may argue this is already a kind of racism, I think the definition would be too broad this way that basically everyone is a racist.

Many talk about police's bias towards the black, but they fail to acknowledge their own bias. They presumably think Chauvin murdered Floyd due to racial profiling, solely based on so-called history and pattern without any evidence. Using the same metaphor as before, it's like a murderer must also be a rapist just because many killers rape their victims in the society.

When a white man is knelt to death, it's police brutality; when a black man is killed in the same way, it's racism. It just doesn't make any sense. Those who see it this way are actually the greatest racists, because they view and categorize the same event differently. Now it seems people value black people higher than others, as their death arouses attention while few care about others.

Unlike others, I'm always prepared to change my mind, as soon as there is any direct evidence pointing to the involvement of racism in this particular case. Maybe someone would testify against him in the trial, maybe someome would leak some stories to the press. Honestly, I hope Chauvin can be proven a racist in the end, otherwise all these protests look far less legitimate and meaningful, as they have already been without a clear aim and a concrete demand.
I'm going to try to be as civil as possible here because this is a very emotive issue for me and many other black people. I also know that many Asians (East and South) see themselves as somehow removed from racism, see it as a black and white issue, even though some of the most obvious racism I and other black people have received has been from Asians or in Asian countries. I have also seen your posting on here and despite what you say in the last paragraph, I don't think you are willing to change your mind. You have come in here, repeated this one study over and over again, at one point admitted you don't actually know that much about the Floyd Killing and proceeded to carry on holding the same opinion. Regardless, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and attempt to get my thoughts down in a polite manner.

I'm pretty sure others have raised this with you already. But I struggle to understand how you don't understand that a system that criminalises black people, that portrays them as a fundamental threat, is not inherently racist? The fact that black people do the same does not mean the system is not racist. It means that we are also raised in this global system, with an unspoken hierarchy where white is at the top and black at the bottom. I was doing some humanitarian work in Uganda a few years ago and one of the workers there asked me whether I thought the South Sudanese refugees were attractive or not (fecking dumb question of course). She asked me how they can be attractive when they're so dark. Or another Ugandan woman who wished she could be like Michael Jackson so she could be white. These people are not born like this.

Yes I do think basically everyone is a racist in some way or another. I include myself in that. We all hold prejudices that we've picked up in our daily lives and from our environments. The key is to try and acknowledge those and actually try to change those thoughts, rather than pat ourselves on the back for how little racism we hold.

Your murder rapist analogy is so off-piste I don't even know where to begin tbh. But for the rest of the point, I would say many people, on here at least, are trying to acknowledge it. They're trying to challenge it. Friends and colleagues have been asking me what they can do to help, whether they ever do these things themselves and how to help challenge those misconceptions.

'Those who see it this way are the greatest racists'. Really? So someone who sees this as racism is a worse racist than the white guy who walked into a black church to kill people for instance? That's really your argument? Ffs.

You seem to have done 2 things here.

1) Bunker down on there being no proof of this being racism from Chauvin
2) State that we're all more likely to shoot black people if given the chance

And are managing to completely miss the point. The reality is, it isn't about Floyd. Nor is it about Chauvin. Chauvin may well not be a racist (though he is a murderer). The point is, people don't care anymore. This is a tipping point, reached because of decades of institutionalised racism barely hidden under the surface, following centuries of institutionalised racism completely out in the open. These protests are not about Chauvin or Floyd. They're about the way the police, the criminal justice system, the media, the government and normal people, treat black people every single day. The issue of police brutality more likely being meted out to blacks is just the tip of a huge iceberg of millions of much smaller and less dramatic events that don't make it to national media or cause international protests but are fecking tiring regardless.

The protests have very clear aims. And they are very legitimate. They are an attempt to change the reality for black people in America. To shine a spotlight on what happens to blacks every day there. To change the culture of policing and justice where blacks are more likely to be stopped, more likely to be searched, more likely to be brutalised, more likely to be imprisoned for the same crime as a white, more likely to spend longer in jail than a white, more likely to be struck off a jury than a white. To shine a light on the fact that black people are inherently seen as poor and dangerous, especially if we end up god forbid doing well enough to end up in a 'white neighbourhood'. That we're less likely to get a job than a white person with the exact same qualification based on our names. More likely to have the police called on them for silly crimes. More likely to be mistaken for criminals. More likely to have poor water quality and poor access to healthcare. Then there's the things that are difficult to quantify but we've all experienced. People following us in a shop. Thinking we can't afford things. Crossing the street. Clutching their purse or bag closer to them when they see us.

You seem like a very very very literal person. No evidence of racism from Chauvin, only brutality. These protests are specifically to protest the racist killing of Floyd. No and no. It isn't about individual racism from one police officer and it isn't about the individual killing of one black man.
 
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The Boy

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I'm going to try to be as civil as possible here because this is a very emotive issue for me and many other black people. I also know that many Asians (East and South) see themselves as somehow removed from racism, see it as a black and white issue, even though some of the most obvious racism I and other black people have received has been from Asians or in Asian countries. I have also seen your posting on here and despite what you say in the last paragraph, I don't think you are willing to change your mind. You have come in here, repeated this one study over and over again, at one point admitted you don't actually know that much about the Floyd Killing and proceeded to carry on holding the same opinion. Regardless, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and attempt to get my thoughts down in a polite manner.

I'm pretty sure others have raised this with you already. But I struggle to understand how you don't understand that a system that criminalises black people, that portrays them as a fundamental threat, is not inherently racist? The fact that black people do the same does not mean the system is not racist. It means that we are also raised in this global system, with an unspoken hierarchy where white is at the top and black at the bottom. I was doing some humanitarian work in Uganda a few years ago and one of the workers there asked me whether I thought the South Sudanese refugees were attractive or not (fecking dumb question of course). She asked me how they can be attractive when they're so dark. Or another Ugandan woman who wished she could be like Michael Jackson so she could be white. These people are not born like this.

Yes I do think basically everyone is a racist in some way or another. I include myself in that. We all hold prejudices that we've picked up in our daily lives and from our environments. The key is to try and acknowledge those and actually try to change those thoughts, rather than pat ourselves on the back for how little racism we hold.

Your murder rapist analogy is so off-piste I don't even know where to begin tbh. But for the rest of the point, I would say many people, on here at least, are trying to acknowledge it. They're trying to challenge it. Friends and colleagues have been asking me what they can do to help, whether they ever do these things themselves and how to help challenge those misconceptions.

'Those who see it this way are the greatest racists'. Really? So someone who sees this as racism is a worse racist than the white guy who walked into a black church to kill people for instance? That's really your argument? Ffs.

You seem to have done 2 things here.

1) Bunker down on there being no proof of this being racism from Chauvin
2) State that we're all more likely to shoot black people if given the chance

And are managing to completely miss the point. The reality is, it isn't about Floyd. Nor is it about Chauvin. Chauvin may well not be a racist (though he is a murderer). The point is, people don't care anymore. This is a tipping point, reached because of decades of institutionalised racism barely hidden under the surface, following centuries of institutionalised racism completely out in the open. These protests are not about Chauvin or Floyd. They're about the way the police, the criminal justice system, the media, the government and normal people, treat black people every single day. The issue of police brutality more likely being meted out to blacks is just the tip of a huge iceberg of millions of much smaller and less dramatic events that don't make it to national media or cause international protests but are fecking tiring regardless.

The protests have very clear aims. And they are very legitimate. They are an attempt to change the reality for black people in America. To shine a spotlight on what happens to blacks every day there. To change the culture of policing and justice where blacks are more likely to be stopped, more likely to be searched, more likely to be brutalised, more likely to be imprisoned for the same crime as a white, more likely to spend longer in jail than a white, more likely to be struck off a jury than a white. To shine a light on the fact that black people are inherently seen as poor and dangerous, especially if we end up god forbid doing well enough to end up in a 'white neighbourhood'. That we're less likely to get a job than a white person with the exact same qualification based on our names. More likely to have the police called on them for silly crimes. More likely to be mistaken for criminals. More likely to have poor water quality and poor access to healthcare. Then there's the things that are difficult to quantify but we've all experienced. People following us in a shop. Thinking we can't afford things. Crossing the street. Clutching their purse or bag closer to them when they see us.

You seem like a very very very literal person. No evidence of racism from Chauvin, only brutality. These protests are specifically to protest the racist killing of Floyd. No and no. It isn't about individual racism from one police officer and it isn't about the individual killing of one black man.
Excellent post said exact;y what I wanted to but far far better.
 

SteveTheRed

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Look up "shooting bias" this is a similar situation.

You don't need someone in a trial to testify that Chauvin had posted racist posts on FB or was a secret member of the KKK. That would make this an indiviual act of racism, this is not necessarily about individual acts (though it may well be) this is about institutional racism. The argument is Chauvin and many other police like him expected more problems and possibly violence from Floyd because of the colour of his skin and their preconceptions of what that meant.

What I mean is this. Police are more likely to shoot at a black person than a white person, this isn't necessarily because they hate black people. But they expect them to be more violent, they expect them to be more likely to have committed a crime - these are preconception and are just as racist as attacking a business because it is owned by black people.

What people arguing in this thread, that we don't know if this brutality was racially driven fail to get is that this institutional racism is endemic everywhere in the western world. Its the reason people are more likely in to hire a white person over a black person, more likely to want to rent their property to a white person rather than a black person, feel more comfortable with their daughter dating a white man than a black man etc etc. Their preconceptions make them fear.

A white person walking down the street late at night, are they more nervous of group of young black men hanging out on the corner or a group of young white men? The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people is everywhere and it is 100% racist and lots and lots people if they are honest with themselves will recognise this at one point or another in themselves.

The bigger questions are why? American history is obviously one thing, as there cannot be a white person on earth who doesn't understand that black America has been appallingly treated throughout the history of the US. But the media and popular culture has a lot to do with it as well, from everything from the Wire to New Jack City (2 random examples and certainly not saying that either are racist) paint a picture of black urban America as violent and gang ridden. Nerds, sensible people and goodies etc etc in movies and in books are rarely black and if the hero is black even then they often come packaged in a violent form, like Black Panther or Shaft (2 more random examples and not held up as racist films)

We are bombarded everyday by negative black stereotypes in US culture and sadly that is the dominant global culture now, this just builds those racist preconceptions in all sorts of people even those who would not for a second think they are racist.

On top of that segregation is rife in the US and has been for hundreds of years this in turn builds up an us and them culture which once again breeds institutional racism.

To argue that Chauvin's actions were not racist misses the point entirely, the black lives matter movement gets this, institutionally black lives are currently cheaper in the States than white lives.

This post has gone on much longer than I meant, but there are literally hundreds of books and papers written about this, I offer no answers or suggestions on how to fix this as I honestly don't know beyond individuals recognising it in themselves and working to overcome it.
Are they?

"In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population.

The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer."

https://archive.is/7Hpgr
 

Ibi Dreams

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Even if you don't think race had anything to do with Floyd's death, these protests against the police would be fully justified. The police are literally out of control, acting recklessly and dangerously and denying people their constitutional right to freely protest peacefully with zero accountability. Their reaction to this has been disgusting.

I don't mean to remove the racial element to the protests. Obviously that is at the forefront of these protests and rightly so.
 

VorZakone

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If it looks like a duck talks like a duck it is a duck.

Gotta love it when someone goes the extra lenght to defend chauffin. He doesnt need defending. I dont care if he's racist or just brutal and whatever happened i dont feel any remorse if he turns out to be just brutal. There are certain cases that needs the boook thrown at him, more than what's just because what he does is far from just.

Normally I'd try to see good in every man but this one is one special breed. I wont lose sleep if I'm the one assigned to pull his electric chair lever. He doesnt deserve an ounce of sympathy nor devil advocacy.

Arguing on semantics whether it's brutality or racism doesnt make you smart and objective. It only makes you insensitive to matters at hand. How'd you feel if you're black and people are dismissing this as simply brutality. Not racism. Yeah right it isnt.
Nobody is defending Chauvin.
 

The Boy

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and adjusted by Crime Rate?

For every 10,000 black people arrested for violent crime , 3 are killed. For every 10,000 white people arrested for violent crime, 4 are killed.
That's the point though isn't it about this whole protest, many black people who are killed are not committing a crime and many are unarmed. If you're arresting someone for a violent crime it's likely the person you're arresting is armed and gun ownership is far higher amongst white men than non white men.

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/americas-complex-relationship-with-guns/

This is from 2017 but here 48% of white men say they own a gun where as only 24% of non white me say they own a gun. So with double the gun ownership rate for white men its not surprising that quite a few get killed when arrested for violent crime, they're armed.

George Floyd wasn't arrested for violent crime, he was buying a pack of fags with a suspect $20 bill.
 

Withnail

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I'm going to try to be as civil as possible here because this is a very emotive issue for me and many other black people. I also know that many Asians (East and South) see themselves as somehow removed from racism, see it as a black and white issue, even though some of the most obvious racism I and other black people have received has been from Asians or in Asian countries. I have also seen your posting on here and despite what you say in the last paragraph, I don't think you are willing to change your mind. You have come in here, repeated this one study over and over again, at one point admitted you don't actually know that much about the Floyd Killing and proceeded to carry on holding the same opinion. Regardless, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and attempt to get my thoughts down in a polite manner.

I'm pretty sure others have raised this with you already. But I struggle to understand how you don't understand that a system that criminalises black people, that portrays them as a fundamental threat, is not inherently racist? The fact that black people do the same does not mean the system is not racist. It means that we are also raised in this global system, with an unspoken hierarchy where white is at the top and black at the bottom. I was doing some humanitarian work in Uganda a few years ago and one of the workers there asked me whether I thought the South Sudanese refugees were attractive or not (fecking dumb question of course). She asked me how they can be attractive when they're so dark. Or another Ugandan woman who wished she could be like Michael Jackson so she could be white. These people are not born like this.

Yes I do think basically everyone is a racist in some way or another. I include myself in that. We all hold prejudices that we've picked up in our daily lives and from our environments. The key is to try and acknowledge those and actually try to change those thoughts, rather than pat ourselves on the back for how little racism we hold.

Your murder rapist analogy is so off-piste I don't even know where to begin tbh. But for the rest of the point, I would say many people, on here at least, are trying to acknowledge it. They're trying to challenge it. Friends and colleagues have been asking me what they can do to help, whether they ever do these things themselves and how to help challenge those misconceptions.

'Those who see it this way are the greatest racists'. Really? So someone who sees this as racism is a worse racist than the white guy who walked into a black church to kill people for instance? That's really your argument? Ffs.

You seem to have done 2 things here.

1) Bunker down on there being no proof of this being racism from Chauvin
2) State that we're all more likely to shoot black people if given the chance

And are managing to completely miss the point. The reality is, it isn't about Floyd. Nor is it about Chauvin. Chauvin may well not be a racist (though he is a murderer). The point is, people don't care anymore. This is a tipping point, reached because of decades of institutionalised racism barely hidden under the surface, following centuries of institutionalised racism completely out in the open. These protests are not about Chauvin or Floyd. They're about the way the police, the criminal justice system, the media, the government and normal people, treat black people every single day. The issue of police brutality more likely being meted out to blacks is just the tip of a huge iceberg of millions of much smaller and less dramatic events that don't make it to national media or cause international protests but are fecking tiring regardless.

The protests have very clear aims. And they are very legitimate. They are an attempt to change the reality for black people in America. To shine a spotlight on what happens to blacks every day there. To change the culture of policing and justice where blacks are more likely to be stopped, more likely to be searched, more likely to be brutalised, more likely to be imprisoned for the same crime as a white, more likely to spend longer in jail than a white, more likely to be struck off a jury than a white. To shine a light on the fact that black people are inherently seen as poor and dangerous, especially if we end up god forbid doing well enough to end up in a 'white neighbourhood'. That we're less likely to get a job than a white person with the exact same qualification based on our names. More likely to have the police called on them for silly crimes. More likely to be mistaken for criminals. More likely to have poor water quality and poor access to healthcare. Then there's the things that are difficult to quantify but we've all experienced. People following us in a shop. Thinking we can't afford things. Crossing the street. Clutching their purse or bag closer to them when they see us.

You seem like a very very very literal person. No evidence of racism from Chauvin, only brutality. These protests are specifically to protest the racist killing of Floyd. No and no. It isn't about individual racism from one police officer and it isn't about the individual killing of one black man.
Well said
 

Withnail

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Full video probably not up yet but a small sample here.


Some of the preamble is in sections here:

The MEN vid seems to be before the express one as it isn't as heated.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/tv/piers-morgan-rudy-giuliani-heated-18360683

https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/t...dy-giuliani-itv-gmb-donald-trump-george-floyd

The Express is reporting Guliani said 'f*cked up' and that's what Piers seemed to think but it sounds like he caught himself actually said 'sucked up'
 

Rado_N

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and adjusted by Crime Rate?

For every 10,000 black people arrested for violent crime , 3 are killed. For every 10,000 white people arrested for violent crime, 4 are killed.
Racial profiling is why innocent black men keep getting killed by the police.
 

SilentWitness

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I'm going to try to be as civil as possible here because this is a very emotive issue for me and many other black people. I also know that many Asians (East and South) see themselves as somehow removed from racism, see it as a black and white issue, even though some of the most obvious racism I and other black people have received has been from Asians or in Asian countries. I have also seen your posting on here and despite what you say in the last paragraph, I don't think you are willing to change your mind. You have come in here, repeated this one study over and over again, at one point admitted you don't actually know that much about the Floyd Killing and proceeded to carry on holding the same opinion. Regardless, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and attempt to get my thoughts down in a polite manner.

I'm pretty sure others have raised this with you already. But I struggle to understand how you don't understand that a system that criminalises black people, that portrays them as a fundamental threat, is not inherently racist? The fact that black people do the same does not mean the system is not racist. It means that we are also raised in this global system, with an unspoken hierarchy where white is at the top and black at the bottom. I was doing some humanitarian work in Uganda a few years ago and one of the workers there asked me whether I thought the South Sudanese refugees were attractive or not (fecking dumb question of course). She asked me how they can be attractive when they're so dark. Or another Ugandan woman who wished she could be like Michael Jackson so she could be white. These people are not born like this.

Yes I do think basically everyone is a racist in some way or another. I include myself in that. We all hold prejudices that we've picked up in our daily lives and from our environments. The key is to try and acknowledge those and actually try to change those thoughts, rather than pat ourselves on the back for how little racism we hold.

Your murder rapist analogy is so off-piste I don't even know where to begin tbh. But for the rest of the point, I would say many people, on here at least, are trying to acknowledge it. They're trying to challenge it. Friends and colleagues have been asking me what they can do to help, whether they ever do these things themselves and how to help challenge those misconceptions.

'Those who see it this way are the greatest racists'. Really? So someone who sees this as racism is a worse racist than the white guy who walked into a black church to kill people for instance? That's really your argument? Ffs.

You seem to have done 2 things here.

1) Bunker down on there being no proof of this being racism from Chauvin
2) State that we're all more likely to shoot black people if given the chance

And are managing to completely miss the point. The reality is, it isn't about Floyd. Nor is it about Chauvin. Chauvin may well not be a racist (though he is a murderer). The point is, people don't care anymore. This is a tipping point, reached because of decades of institutionalised racism barely hidden under the surface, following centuries of institutionalised racism completely out in the open. These protests are not about Chauvin or Floyd. They're about the way the police, the criminal justice system, the media, the government and normal people, treat black people every single day. The issue of police brutality more likely being meted out to blacks is just the tip of a huge iceberg of millions of much smaller and less dramatic events that don't make it to national media or cause international protests but are fecking tiring regardless.

The protests have very clear aims. And they are very legitimate. They are an attempt to change the reality for black people in America. To shine a spotlight on what happens to blacks every day there. To change the culture of policing and justice where blacks are more likely to be stopped, more likely to be searched, more likely to be brutalised, more likely to be imprisoned for the same crime as a white, more likely to spend longer in jail than a white, more likely to be struck off a jury than a white. To shine a light on the fact that black people are inherently seen as poor and dangerous, especially if we end up god forbid doing well enough to end up in a 'white neighbourhood'. That we're less likely to get a job than a white person with the exact same qualification based on our names. More likely to have the police called on them for silly crimes. More likely to be mistaken for criminals. More likely to have poor water quality and poor access to healthcare. Then there's the things that are difficult to quantify but we've all experienced. People following us in a shop. Thinking we can't afford things. Crossing the street. Clutching their purse or bag closer to them when they see us.

You seem like a very very very literal person. No evidence of racism from Chauvin, only brutality. These protests are specifically to protest the racist killing of Floyd. No and no. It isn't about individual racism from one police officer and it isn't about the individual killing of one black man.
Fantastic post.
 

hmchan

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Look up "shooting bias" this is a similar situation.

You don't need someone in a trial to testify that Chauvin had posted racist posts on FB or was a secret member of the KKK. That would make this an indiviual act of racism, this is not necessarily about individual acts (though it may well be) this is about institutional racism. The argument is Chauvin and many other police like him expected more problems and possibly violence from Floyd because of the colour of his skin and their preconceptions of what that meant.

What I mean is this. Police are more likely to shoot at a black person than a white person, this isn't necessarily because they hate black people. But they expect them to be more violent, they expect them to be more likely to have committed a crime - these are preconception and are just as racist as attacking a business because it is owned by black people.

What people arguing in this thread, that we don't know if this brutality was racially driven fail to get is that this institutional racism is endemic everywhere in the western world. Its the reason people are more likely in to hire a white person over a black person, more likely to want to rent their property to a white person rather than a black person, feel more comfortable with their daughter dating a white man than a black man etc etc. Their preconceptions make them fear.

A white person walking down the street late at night, are they more nervous of group of young black men hanging out on the corner or a group of young white men? The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people is everywhere and it is 100% racist and lots and lots people if they are honest with themselves will recognise this at one point or another in themselves.

The bigger questions are why? American history is obviously one thing, as there cannot be a white person on earth who doesn't understand that black America has been appallingly treated throughout the history of the US. But the media and popular culture has a lot to do with it as well, from everything from the Wire to New Jack City (2 random examples and certainly not saying that either are racist) paint a picture of black urban America as violent and gang ridden. Nerds, sensible people and goodies etc etc in movies and in books are rarely black and if the hero is black even then they often come packaged in a violent form, like Black Panther or Shaft (2 more random examples and not held up as racist films)

We are bombarded everyday by negative black stereotypes in US culture and sadly that is the dominant global culture now, this just builds those racist preconceptions in all sorts of people even those who would not for a second think they are racist.

On top of that segregation is rife in the US and has been for hundreds of years this in turn builds up an us and them culture which once again breeds institutional racism.

To argue that Chauvin's actions were not racist misses the point entirely, the black lives matter movement gets this, institutionally black lives are currently cheaper in the States than white lives.

This post has gone on much longer than I meant, but there are literally hundreds of books and papers written about this, I offer no answers or suggestions on how to fix this as I honestly don't know beyond individuals recognising it in themselves and working to overcome it.
I have gone over this point again and again. In the social experiment I've quoted, the majority of the experimental subjects shoot at the black friend they know instead of a white stranger. Even black people themselves have the same preconception and make the same decision, do you call this racism? More importantly, these participants are not from the police (institution) at all, so I don't think institutional racism has anything to do with black people more likely to be killed by cops.

I agree with the rest of your post though, and I truly understand institutional racism has created an unfair environment for people of color to live. Like I said before, racism is intolerable and should be discouraged, and there are plenty of classic examples to make a case. It's pathetic to make use of Floyd's death to get the point across. Police brutality is clearly the bigger issue in this case, but it's not properly addressed as the focus is spun.
 

Fingeredmouse

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I'm going to try to be as civil as possible here because this is a very emotive issue for me and many other black people. I also know that many Asians (East and South) see themselves as somehow removed from racism, see it as a black and white issue, even though some of the most obvious racism I and other black people have received has been from Asians or in Asian countries. I have also seen your posting on here and despite what you say in the last paragraph, I don't think you are willing to change your mind. You have come in here, repeated this one study over and over again, at one point admitted you don't actually know that much about the Floyd Killing and proceeded to carry on holding the same opinion. Regardless, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and attempt to get my thoughts down in a polite manner.

I'm pretty sure others have raised this with you already. But I struggle to understand how you don't understand that a system that criminalises black people, that portrays them as a fundamental threat, is not inherently racist? The fact that black people do the same does not mean the system is not racist. It means that we are also raised in this global system, with an unspoken hierarchy where white is at the top and black at the bottom. I was doing some humanitarian work in Uganda a few years ago and one of the workers there asked me whether I thought the South Sudanese refugees were attractive or not (fecking dumb question of course). She asked me how they can be attractive when they're so dark. Or another Ugandan woman who wished she could be like Michael Jackson so she could be white. These people are not born like this.

Yes I do think basically everyone is a racist in some way or another. I include myself in that. We all hold prejudices that we've picked up in our daily lives and from our environments. The key is to try and acknowledge those and actually try to change those thoughts, rather than pat ourselves on the back for how little racism we hold.

Your murder rapist analogy is so off-piste I don't even know where to begin tbh. But for the rest of the point, I would say many people, on here at least, are trying to acknowledge it. They're trying to challenge it. Friends and colleagues have been asking me what they can do to help, whether they ever do these things themselves and how to help challenge those misconceptions.

'Those who see it this way are the greatest racists'. Really? So someone who sees this as racism is a worse racist than the white guy who walked into a black church to kill people for instance? That's really your argument? Ffs.

You seem to have done 2 things here.

1) Bunker down on there being no proof of this being racism from Chauvin
2) State that we're all more likely to shoot black people if given the chance

And are managing to completely miss the point. The reality is, it isn't about Floyd. Nor is it about Chauvin. Chauvin may well not be a racist (though he is a murderer). The point is, people don't care anymore. This is a tipping point, reached because of decades of institutionalised racism barely hidden under the surface, following centuries of institutionalised racism completely out in the open. These protests are not about Chauvin or Floyd. They're about the way the police, the criminal justice system, the media, the government and normal people, treat black people every single day. The issue of police brutality more likely being meted out to blacks is just the tip of a huge iceberg of millions of much smaller and less dramatic events that don't make it to national media or cause international protests but are fecking tiring regardless.

The protests have very clear aims. And they are very legitimate. They are an attempt to change the reality for black people in America. To shine a spotlight on what happens to blacks every day there. To change the culture of policing and justice where blacks are more likely to be stopped, more likely to be searched, more likely to be brutalised, more likely to be imprisoned for the same crime as a white, more likely to spend longer in jail than a white, more likely to be struck off a jury than a white. To shine a light on the fact that black people are inherently seen as poor and dangerous, especially if we end up god forbid doing well enough to end up in a 'white neighbourhood'. That we're less likely to get a job than a white person with the exact same qualification based on our names. More likely to have the police called on them for silly crimes. More likely to be mistaken for criminals. More likely to have poor water quality and poor access to healthcare. Then there's the things that are difficult to quantify but we've all experienced. People following us in a shop. Thinking we can't afford things. Crossing the street. Clutching their purse or bag closer to them when they see us.

You seem like a very very very literal person. No evidence of racism from Chauvin, only brutality. These protests are specifically to protest the racist killing of Floyd. No and no. It isn't about individual racism from one police officer and it isn't about the individual killing of one black man.
Well said. I also applaud your patience.
 

Carolina Red

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Thugs:
The police department in Charlotte, North Carolina’s largest city, is coming under criticism after a video posted to social media appeared to show officers using chemical agents on demonstrators who were boxed in while protesting the death of George Floyd.

The video was recorded Tuesday night by Justin LaFrancois, co-founder and publisher of the alternative Charlotte newspaper Queen City Nerve. He said officers fired tear gas and flash-bangs from behind the protesters, and in front of them as well. He also said officers perched on top of buildings were firing pepper balls down on the crowd.

“We were completely trapped,” LaFrancois said. “There was one way to get out, and half of the group did go out that way through the tear gas and through the pepper balls. But for the rest of us, the only route of escape ... was to pull up a gate on the parking structure that we were pressed up against.”

LaFrancois said people tried to squeeze under the 6-inch opening in the gate and find safety. But as those people looked for an exit from the parking deck, he said officers began firing pepper balls after they entered the deck from the other side.

"They were relentless in not allowing us to leave the area that they were trying to get us to leave," LaFrancois said. "It was the most extreme action that I had seen taken. It was the first time that I was actually in fear for my life."

Charlotte-Mecklenburg police said on Twitter they are looking into the incident.
"We are internally reviewing the circumstances that developed this evening on 4th Street to ensure policy and protocol were followed, the police department tweeted Tuesday."
The protest march was live-streamed. Here’s a clip from that incident.
 

Lennon7

nipple flasher and door destroyer
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Messages
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I can't believe there have been no replies to these tweets, were in the middle of the pandemic and these people are starting a riot and trying to goad the police into doing something, disgusting behaviour.

I have no comments in what's going on in America as it's not really my business as I live on the other side of the Atlantic as do all these on this video, what are they going to prove by rioting over here ?
They’re not trying to goad the police into doing something, what the feck are you on about? They’re protesting not just for our country but for the world. Systematic racism is a thing in our country too - we just don’t have guns.

Whatever the police do is on them.
 

SirAnderson

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I have gone over this point again and again. In the social experiment I've quoted, the majority of the experimental subjects shoot at the black friend they know instead of a white stranger. Even black people themselves have the same preconception and make the same decision, do you call this racism? More importantly, these participants are not from the police (institution) at all, so I don't think institutional racism has anything to do with black people more likely to be killed by cops.

I agree with the rest of your post though, and I truly understand institutional racism has created an unfair environment for people of color to live. Like I said before, racism is intolerable and should be discouraged, and there are plenty of classic examples to make a case. It's pathetic to make use of Floyd's death to get the point across. Police brutality is clearly the bigger issue in this case, but it's not properly addressed as the focus is spun.
Blimey me! I just can't believe you can say that with such insensitivity and utter disregard! Wow.
We should get the point across EVERY single time a black person is killed without thought!!
Inclusively, they should also get the point across every time police show clear brutality too anyone!
 

Fingeredmouse

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I have gone over this point again and again. In the social experiment I've quoted, the majority of the experimental subjects shoot at the black friend they know instead of a white stranger. Even black people themselves have the same preconception and make the same decision, do you call this racism? More importantly, these participants are not from the police (institution) at all, so I don't think institutional racism has anything to do with black people more likely to be killed by cops.

I agree with the rest of your post though, and I truly understand institutional racism has created an unfair environment for people of color to live. Like I said before, racism is intolerable and should be discouraged, and there are plenty of classic examples to make a case. It's pathetic to make use of Floyd's death to get the point across. Police brutality is clearly the bigger issue in this case, but it's not properly addressed as the focus is spun.
You have gone over the point again and again and again and again despite the fact your entire point appears to be based on the risible "100 Humans" Netflix show which you appear to be confusing with peer reviewed science.

Edit: Hypothetically, let us imagine that it us unequivocally proven that this particular murder was racially motivated: what does that do to your point, such as it is? Is it not that case that police brutality and racism are two different things and in any individual case may be separate?
 
Last edited:

Rado_N

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So I see there has been some “people” trying to start a “George Floyd Challenge” on social media.

This is definitely the darkest timeline.
 

Dante

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The protest march was live-streamed. Here’s a clip from that incident.
The police tactic is clearly to make protesting as unpleasant as possible, even when it's perfectly lawful.

There's a method to the madness, but that method is wrong on every level.
 

antihenry

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What I mean is this. Police are more likely to shoot at a black person than a white person, this isn't necessarily because they hate black people. But they expect them to be more violent, they expect them to be more likely to have committed a crime - these are preconception and are just as racist as attacking a business because it is owned by black people.

What people arguing in this thread, that we don't know if this brutality was racially driven fail to get is that this institutional racism is endemic everywhere in the western world. Its the reason people are more likely in to hire a white person over a black person, more likely to want to rent their property to a white person rather than a black person, feel more comfortable with their daughter dating a white man than a black man etc etc. Their preconceptions make them fear.

A white person walking down the street late at night, are they more nervous of group of young black men hanging out on the corner or a group of young white men? The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people is everywhere and it is 100% racist and lots and lots people if they are honest with themselves will recognise this at one point or another in themselves.
The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people when you're walking down the street late at night is down to stereotypes but those stereotypes are rooted in real life experiences. It's laughable to suggest that it's just based on what people see in movies or TV. If you are much more likely to be robbed by a black person than an Asian, for example, why is it racist to feel more worried when you see group of black people somewhere late at night than a group of Asians or whites? It's just common sense and it's the reality we live in.

These protests won't bring any real change because they only concentrate on the faults of the system and how it acts towards black population. They completely ignore the other side of the equation which is black urban community and its failings. Poverty, drug dealing, gang culture and violence are rampant in many neighborhoods where African-Americans are a majority. If black lives matter, why not concentrate on parents staying together and raising children, prioritizing education and trying their best to keep kids at school and off streets. But that's a much harder and longer road with plenty of setbacks and no guaranteed short term success. It's much easier to just point fingers at the system, decry white privilege and demand change from others than look at yourself in a mirror and wonder what you can do to improve situation in your own family, your own community etc. You can't expect the world around you to change and not doing your bit. And I don't mean making selfies with friends at protests while giving a finger to the cops.
 

Pexbo

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Kneeling on someone else’s neck and posting it on social media like it’s a big joke.
With a bit of luck of the people that try this, one of them will die and will will end up in prison.
 

Andy_Cole

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Guess I should also try to be a utter knob..."Hey, I'm asian, so I can't be racist."
China is very racist. My friend who’s Indian British has been booted out his space for his restaurant and they’ve attempted to kick him out his apartment. The reason he’s managed to stay is because he’s offered more rent.

All because he’s a foreigner.
 

Carolina Red

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Floyd had tested positive for Covid at the beginning of April...

The report further noted that a nasal swab sample collected from Floyd’s body came back positive for COVID-19, and that Floyd had also tested positive on April 3, nearly eight weeks before his death.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-autopsy-idUSKBN23B1HX

Also, prepare yourselves for the defense attornies to use this in court...

The autopsy, in listing cardiopulmonary arrest as the cause of Floyd’s death, also cited “complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression.”

The report listed several additional factors as “significant conditions” contributing to Floyd’s death, including heart disease, high blood pressure and intoxication from the powerful opioid fentanyl, as well as recent methamphetamine use.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-autopsy-idUSKBN23B1HX
 

Grinner

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I have gone over this point again and again. In the social experiment I've quoted, the majority of the experimental subjects shoot at the black friend they know instead of a white stranger. Even black people themselves have the same preconception and make the same decision, do you call this racism? More importantly, these participants are not from the police (institution) at all, so I don't think institutional racism has anything to do with black people more likely to be killed by cops.

I agree with the rest of your post though, and I truly understand institutional racism has created an unfair environment for people of color to live. Like I said before, racism is intolerable and should be discouraged, and there are plenty of classic examples to make a case. It's pathetic to make use of Floyd's death to get the point across. Police brutality is clearly the bigger issue in this case, but it's not properly addressed as the focus is spun.

You're like the Philomena Cunk of this thread.

Your questions have been answered over and over and you've made your point so why not give it a rest now, eh?
 

nimic

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And I'm all out of bubblegum.
The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people when you're walking down the street late at night is down to stereotypes but those stereotypes are rooted in real life experiences. It's laughable to suggest that it's just based on what people see in movies or TV. If you are much more likely to be robbed by a black person than an Asian, for example, why is it racist to feel more worried when you see group of black people somewhere late at night than a group of Asians or whites? It's just common sense and it's the reality we live in.

These protests won't bring any real change because they only concentrate on the faults of the system and how it acts towards black population. They completely ignore the other side of the equation which is black urban community and its failings. Poverty, drug dealing, gang culture and violence are rampant in many neighborhoods where African-Americans are a majority. If black lives matter, why not concentrate on parents staying together and raising children, prioritizing education and trying their best to keep kids at school and off streets. But that's a much harder and longer road with plenty of setbacks and no guaranteed short term success. It's much easier to just point fingers at the system, decry white privilege and demand change from others than look at yourself in a mirror and wonder what you can do to improve situation in your own family, your own community etc. You can't expect the world around you to change and not doing your bit. And I don't mean making selfies with friends at protests while giving a finger to the cops.
Well, you've certainly managed to confirm some stereotypes about Chelsea supporters.