Protests following the killing of George Floyd

[Carolina Red]

@hmchan - congrats dude. @antihenry has taken your place as current worst take in the thread.

 

[Mockney]

The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people when you're walking down the street late at night is down to stereotypes but those stereotypes are rooted in real life experiences. It's laughable to suggest that it's just based on what people see in movies or TV. If you are much more likely to be robbed by a black person than an Asian, for example, why is it racist to feel more worried when you see group of black people somewhere late at night than a group of Asians or whites? It's just common sense and it's the reality we live in.

These protests won't bring any real change because they only concentrate on the faults of the system and how it acts towards black population. They completely ignore the other side of the equation which is black urban community and its failings. Poverty, drug dealing, gang culture and violence are rampant in many neighborhoods where African-Americans are a majority. If black lives matter, why not concentrate on parents staying together and raising children, prioritizing education and trying their best to keep kids at school and off streets. But that's a much harder and longer road with plenty of setbacks and no guaranteed short term success. It's much easier to just point fingers at the system, decry white privilege and demand change from others than look at yourself in a mirror and wonder what you can do to improve situation in your own family, your own community etc. You can't expect the world around you to change and not doing your bit. And I don't mean making selfies with friends at protests while giving a finger to the cops.

Wow. That just got worse and worse as it went down, didn’t it?

Kudos.

 

[jymufc20]

Oh no doubt. The moment they try to excuse the cop for murdering him on tv - and this trial will probably be televised - shit could hit the fan.

Do we have any idea when the trial is ?

 

[F-Red]

The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people when you're walking down the street late at night is down to stereotypes but those stereotypes are rooted in real life experiences. It's laughable to suggest that it's just based on what people see in movies or TV. If you are much more likely to be robbed by a black person than an Asian, for example, why is it racist to feel more worried when you see group of black people somewhere late at night than a group of Asians or whites? It's just common sense and it's the reality we live in.

These protests won't bring any real change because they only concentrate on the faults of the system and how it acts towards black population. They completely ignore the other side of the equation which is black urban community and its failings. Poverty, drug dealing, gang culture and violence are rampant in many neighborhoods where African-Americans are a majority. If black lives matter, why not concentrate on parents staying together and raising children, prioritizing education and trying their best to keep kids at school and off streets. But that's a much harder and longer road with plenty of setbacks and no guaranteed short term success. It's much easier to just point fingers at the system, decry white privilege and demand change from others than look at yourself in a mirror and wonder what you can do to improve situation in your own family, your own community etc. You can't expect the world around you to change and not doing your bit. And I don't mean making selfies with friends at protests while giving a finger to the cops.

If we ever needed a written version of white privilege then you've nailed it. You're utterly clueless.

 

[SirAnderson]

@hmchan - congrats dude. @antihenry has taken your place as current worst take in the thread.

Feels more like it's the same person behind both accounts.

 

[Carolina Red]

Do we have any idea when the trial is ?

Nope, not yet.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

@Sky1981
@africanspur

Thank you both for your posts on page 96.

See this is why I don't get some people in the CE forum. Disagree with him fine but to just go in and suggest he's a racist is quite crass. Just shutting down any meaningful discussion because people dare suggest something different.

You’re the first person to lean on your post count as some sort of superiority in the football forums.

The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people when you're walking down the street late at night is down to stereotypes but those stereotypes are rooted in real life experiences. It's laughable to suggest that it's just based on what people see in movies or TV.

Meaningful discussion

 

[jymufc20]

Nope, not yet.

They better get a move on as I don't see an end to all this at least until he (hopefully) has the book thrown at him.

 

[oates]

They might place them in protective custody units - prisons within the prison - that are separate from the general population.

Not a prison expert, but did a quick google search and there's ways of segregating prisoners from the general population. Seems much depends on the type of prison (state or federal), what his charges were and how far the prison he's in is from where he worked.

Looks like there's something called protective custody - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protective_custody

Also, here's some quora links that address the topic:
https://www.quora.com/When-law-enfo...nced-to-prison-where-do-they-serve-their-time
https://www.quora.com/What-happens-to-cops-in-jail

I'd imagine Chauvin would never be allowed to mix with the general population.

V. helpful, thank you both.

I was interested in this comment by a Quora poster -

Protective Custody can be done on a short term basis, but it isn't a permanent solution. Unless the former LEO did something that gets them sent to a Supermax facility where everyone is in solitary cells, sooner or later the former LEO will have to be around other inmates.

They probably won't last long when that happens, but then again, I'm not much for sheepdogs who turn wolf.

Sorry to ask but why can anyone in Protective Custody not remain there for the duration? Any knowledge?

 

[africanspur]

This is fair and challenges the post with enough information for him, and others, to see how he's come across. I don't doubt for one minute that there are racists on the Caf but surely we have to be better than just shutting people down by throwing the term around without probing further into their mindset?

I've been pretty consistent in my views on the topic in the sense I think that there is alot of wider work required in American society to try and fix this problem. It's not just as simple as saying "all cops are racist" as it exists in a number of places and to fully work to eradicate it you have to look much wider as you do when trying to make a cultural change.

Usually I agree with you. I don't like calling people names, in real life or online. I like to try to discuss and change views if I can. As I tried with that other poster, who I gave the benefit of the doubt.

However, not only was this particular poster's post incredibly offensive and ignorant, I'm pretty sure he's posted similar before. I was actually going to post something in reply to him initially then just couldn't be bothered if I'm honest.

I just don't understand why some people have such a fundamental lack of empathy. The truth is, as angry as this makes me, as deeply as I feel this pain, I also have to empathise to some extent. Because the fight, the emotions, are not my fight and my emotions. Of course I also experience discrimination and racism, sometimes subtle, sometimes not.

But I am an African, with my own culture and memories of my own country. For their faults, I do not fear death at the hands of the British police if I am stopped or pulled over. African-Americans live in a country that has stolen their culture, their history and completely erased it. They live in a country that discriminates against them from the moment they're born and that is the only country, the only culture they know. I can't even begin to understand what that's like. I can't begin to understand the pain of knowing my ancestors were enslaved and parts of the country still glorify that history, with statues, flags and street names.

There's lots of things that need to change for African-American lives to get better, including some things from African-Americans themselves of course.

 

[Withnail]

Not a prison expert, but did a quick google search and there's ways of segregating prisoners from the general population. Seems much depends on the type of prison (state or federal), what his charges were and how far the prison he's in is from where he worked.

Looks like there's something called protective custody - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protective_custody

Also, here's some quora links that address the topic:
https://www.quora.com/When-law-enfo...nced-to-prison-where-do-they-serve-their-time
https://www.quora.com/What-happens-to-cops-in-jail

I'd imagine Chauvin would never be allowed to mix with the general population.

I can't imagine cops are ever in gen pop in a prison, given the high risk of them being attacked.

 

[Grinner]

It always amazes me how readily racists out themselves to others. At least we now know why he didn't like Thierry Henry.

 

[Deery]

The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people when you're walking down the street late at night is down to stereotypes but those stereotypes are rooted in real life experiences. It's laughable to suggest that it's just based on what people see in movies or TV. If you are much more likely to be robbed by a black person than an Asian, for example, why is it racist to feel more worried when you see group of black people somewhere late at night than a group of Asians or whites? It's just common sense and it's the reality we live in.

These protests won't bring any real change because they only concentrate on the faults of the system and how it acts towards black population. They completely ignore the other side of the equation which is black urban community and its failings. Poverty, drug dealing, gang culture and violence are rampant in many neighborhoods where African-Americans are a majority. If black lives matter, why not concentrate on parents staying together and raising children, prioritizing education and trying their best to keep kids at school and off streets. But that's a much harder and longer road with plenty of setbacks and no guaranteed short term success. It's much easier to just point fingers at the system, decry white privilege and demand change from others than look at yourself in a mirror and wonder what you can do to improve situation in your own family, your own community etc. You can't expect the world around you to change and not doing your bit. And I don't mean making selfies with friends at protests while giving a finger to the cops.

What point are you trying to make, except for blaming blacks for everything that’s wrong within their own communities?

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Thank you for this post. I have been reflecting on this issue. I never thought about myself as having privileges in the past. Only when I was in the US, when for the first time I do not breaking to the majority race, do I realise issues that I never thought about before. Simple things like "the sky is the limit if you work hard" only applies when you are born without the cuffs that are chained to certain groups of people from birth.

It’s the biggest issue people have to get over - White Privilege isn’t just being given handouts it’s not having hurdles placed in your way in the first place.

 

[JPRouve]

It's worth remembering that the vast majority of violent crimes, theft(with and without weapons) and drug related offences are committed by white people. And for whites and blacks these offences are obviously committed by a small minority of the population, so the few knuckleheads who somehow decided to disparage black communities better think twice because equally poor white communities are as likely to commit violent crimes. The last point is the crux of the problem, some people mix precarity with ethnicity when it comes to having prejudices, they have a very superficial reading of the social context and makes ridiculous claims.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

It's worth remembering that the vast majority of violent crimes, theft(with and without weapons) and drug related offences are committed by white people. And for whites and blacks these offences are obviously committed by a small minority of the population, so the few knuckleheads who somehow decided to disparage black communities better think twice because equally poor white communities are as likely to commit violent crimes. The last point is the crux of the problem, some people mix precarity with ethnicity when it comes to having prejudices, they have a very superficial reading of the social context and makes ridiculous claims.

I need a hand clapping emoji! Spot on!

 

[Withnail]

V. helpful, thank you both.

I was interested in this comment by a Quora poster -



Sorry to ask but why can anyone in Protective Custody not remain there for the duration? Any knowledge?

I think the short-term thing is when something flares up and a regular prisoner is put there for their own safety.

Certainly in Ireland vulnerable prisoners, such as sex offenders etc, are kept apart from the general population for the duration of their stay.

You'd have to imagine it would be similar for police officers.

The following is a quote from an American Police Detective I found online, which backs that up:

The officers (former officers now) that I have seen arrested were moved to another jail in one of our neighboring counties and kept isolated from the general population. I’ve been told by corrections officers (prison guards) that the ones who go to prison are also kept removed from the general population. One of the correction officers said that the inmates usually know that an ex-cop is coming before he/she even arrives. The prison grapevine is very impressive.

The same officer told me that he had dealt with two ex-officers who had been sent to prison for doing very stupid stuff. They were kept out of the general population, behaved themselves (very subdued) and got out after making parole or topping out (doing their full sentence). There were no attempts on their lives and no dramatic exercise yard confrontations because they would do their exercise time when everybody else was in their cells. Their meals were brought to their cells. This was a decision made by the prison administration and they (the convicts) didn’t get a say in the matter.

 

[SirAnderson]

Let me give it a try...
Whoever doesn't call @hmchan a racist, is more of a racist than him!!
Am I doing it right?

 

[Rado_N]

See this is why I don't get some people in the CE forum. Disagree with him fine but to just go in and suggest he's a racist is quite crass. Just shutting down any meaningful discussion because people dare suggest something different.

Did you even read that car crash of a post?

If someone posts a load of racist bullshit it’s not “crass” to suggest they’re racist. The actual crass bit is the racism.

 

[Grinner]

If the films are anything to go by he'll join the Aryan Brotherhood, get loads of tattoos, have to shiv someone to show his loyalty, and do loads of weightlifting. I bet he's terrified about what his future holds.

 

[Adisa]

The tendency to fear and expect bad outcomes from black people when you're walking down the street late at night is down to stereotypes but those stereotypes are rooted in real life experiences. It's laughable to suggest that it's just based on what people see in movies or TV. If you are much more likely to be robbed by a black person than an Asian, for example, why is it racist to feel more worried when you see group of black people somewhere late at night than a group of Asians or whites? It's just common sense and it's the reality we live in.

These protests won't bring any real change because they only concentrate on the faults of the system and how it acts towards black population. They completely ignore the other side of the equation which is black urban community and its failings. Poverty, drug dealing, gang culture and violence are rampant in many neighborhoods where African-Americans are a majority. If black lives matter, why not concentrate on parents staying together and raising children, prioritizing education and trying their best to keep kids at school and off streets. But that's a much harder and longer road with plenty of setbacks and no guaranteed short term success. It's much easier to just point fingers at the system, decry white privilege and demand change from others than look at yourself in a mirror and wonder what you can do to improve situation in your own family, your own community etc. You can't expect the world around you to change and not doing your bit. And I don't mean making selfies with friends at protests while giving a finger to the cops.

Shocking, shocking post. I don't know whether to be angry or dismayed.

 

[TheReligion]

Usually I agree with you. I don't like calling people names, in real life or online. I like to try to discuss and change views if I can. As I tried with that other poster, who I gave the benefit of the doubt.

However, not only was this particular poster's post incredibly offensive and ignorant, I'm pretty sure he's posted similar before. I was actually going to post something in reply to him initially then just couldn't be bothered if I'm honest.

I just don't understand why some people have such a fundamental lack of empathy. The truth is, as angry as this makes me, as deeply as I feel this pain, I also have to empathise to some extent. Because the fight, the emotions, are not my fight and my emotions. Of course I also experience discrimination and racism, sometimes subtle, sometimes not.

But I am an African, with my own culture and memories of my own country. For their faults, I do not fear death at the hands of the British police if I am stopped or pulled over. African-Americans live in a country that has stolen their culture, their history and completely erased it. They live in a country that discriminates against them from the moment they're born and that is the only country, the only culture they know. I can't even begin to understand what that's like. I can't begin to understand the pain of knowing my ancestors were enslaved and parts of the country still glorify that history, with statues, flags and street names.

There's lots of things that need to change for African-American lives to get better, including some things from African-Americans themselves of course.

Thanks. You've made some very good posts the last few pages which are really interesting to read and add some quality perspective. It's a highly emotive topic so I do understand some people will have little time or patience to try and articulate themselves as you have done.

 

[antihenry]

The US is built on exploitation, both domestically and in foreign lands. You can't be seriously claiming that black people are solely responsible for the change that is needed?

The current events just prove that USA has been using the same tactics on their own territory and on foreign grounds. Deception, torture, oppression, lies, false promises. In order for a meaningful and just change of the system, people need to get to the core of the problem - the American idea of superiority over the whole world.

Where did I say 'solely responsible'? All I said was there are two sides to every issue and you can't just concentrate on one and completely ignore the other because it doesn't suit your narrative.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

What a stupid woman.

She’s an absolute smoke show. Leave her be.

 

[Deery]

Let me give it a try...
Whoever doesn't call @hmchan a racist, is more of a racist than him!!
Am I doing it right?

No. because he can compose a good post, so he’s only curious apparently

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's worth remembering that the vast majority of violent crimes, theft(with and without weapons) and drug related offences are committed by white people. And for whites and blacks these offences are obviously committed by a small minority of the population, so the few knuckleheads who somehow decided to disparage black communities better think twice because equally poor white communities are as likely to commit violent crimes. The last point is the crux of the problem, some people mix precarity with ethnicity when it comes to having prejudices, they have a very superficial reading of the social context and makes ridiculous claims.

Just to be pedantic, you’d expect the vast majority of crimes to be committed by white people. Because white people are the vast majority. I’m fairly sure that US stats have a disproportionate amount of crimes committed by non-whites.

Although that’s not surprising when you take into account the discrepancy in prosperity of the different races. Which is where we can get into systemic racism all over again. Not to mention the racial bias in how the “war on drugs” has been waged. Which the documentary 13 covers so well.

 

[oates]

I think the short-term thing is when something flares up and a regular prisoner is put there for their own safety.

Certainly in Ireland vulnerable prisoners, such as sex offenders etc, are kept apart from the general population for the duration of their stay.

You'd have to imagine it would be similar for police officers.

The following is a quote from an American Police Detective I found online, which backs that up:

The officers (former officers now) that I have seen arrested were moved to another jail in one of our neighboring counties and kept isolated from the general population. I’ve been told by corrections officers (prison guards) that the ones who go to prison are also kept removed from the general population. One of the correction officers said that the inmates usually know that an ex-cop is coming before he/she even arrives. The prison grapevine is very impressive.

The same officer told me that he had dealt with two ex-officers who had been sent to prison for doing very stupid stuff. They were kept out of the general population, behaved themselves (very subdued) and got out after making parole or topping out (doing their full sentence). There were no attempts on their lives and no dramatic exercise yard confrontations because they would do their exercise time when everybody else was in their cells. Their meals were brought to their cells. This was a decision made by the prison administration and they (the convicts) didn’t get a say in the matter.

Yes, it's interesting how knowledgeable the inmate grapevine is and surely must be informed by a combination of visits and correction officers letting information slip or providing it.

I worked with a guy once who had been a prison officer at HMP Doncaster and others, and he said, that although usually sex offenders and usually in protective custody, even solitary if the fellow prisoners wanted to get at them they always found a way. Sometimes a prisoner serving food with a quick slash of a blade, sometimes ground glass in the food.

 

[Raoul]

Where did I say 'solely responsible'? All I said was there are two sides to every issue and you can't just concentrate on one and completely ignore the other because it doesn't suit your narrative.

Very fine people on both sides ehh ?

 

[FrankDrebin]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Adisa]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Any other 'developed' country where militias are recognized by the constitution?
I have been to many developing countries, grew up in one... I have never seen shit like this. Random people holding military grade weapons and patrolling the streets.

 

[TheReligion]

Any other 'developed' country where militias are recognized by the constitution?
I have been to many developing countries, grew up in one... I have never seen shit like this. Random people holding military grade weapons and patrolling the streets.

I don't understand how the American people see this as normal nor do I understand why they won't surrender the second amendment. As you say for a developed country this is unbelievable.

 

[RedTiger]

Full video probably not up yet but a small sample here.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Everything comes down to TV ratings for them

 

[Sky1981]

I don't understand how the American people see this as normal nor do I understand why they won't surrender the second amendment. As you say for a developed country this is unbelievable.

Problem is most americans never been outside US. That's their normal

For most of the world we'd never ever seen a real gun, let alone own one or even fired one.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Where did I say 'solely responsible'? All I said was there are two sides to every issue and you can't just concentrate on one and completely ignore the other because it doesn't suit your narrative.

You did put the bigger burden and blame on black communities, totally disregarding the historical factors that play into the issues. It's disingenuous on your part, to put it lightly.

 

[TheReligion]

Problem is most americans never been outside US. That's their normal

Interesting point. Without wanting to generalise it does seem as though they are quite intrenched in their own history and country as opposed to be outward looking towards the rest of the world.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Where did I say 'solely responsible'? All I said was there are two sides to every issue and you can't just concentrate on one and completely ignore the other because it doesn't suit your narrative.

You don't appear to have changed an iota of your position in 6 years. You first articulated the above sentiment here:

Even if by some miracle you could get rid of every cop on the force who ever had a racist thought or was trigger happy, the situation will not change much because it has little to do with it. The biggest part of the problem lies within black community itself.

 

[JPRouve]

Just to be pedantic, you’d expect the vast majority of crimes to be committed by white people. Because white people are the vast majority. I’m fairly sure that US stats have a disproportionate amount of crimes committed by non-whites.

Although that’s not surprising when you take into account the discrepancy in prosperity of the different races. Which is where we can get into systemic racism all over again. Not to mention the racial bias in how the “war on drugs” has been waged. Which the documentary 13 covers so well.

Which is why the following sentence is important, I acknowledge that in both cases we are talking about a minority who are in similar social context. In the US there happens to be more poor communities among blacks than there white is poor communities among whites.

 

[antihenry]

'Russians need to stop blaming America and NATO for their issues. Its easy to blame it on a western conspiracy, as opposed to looking at the hard work they need to do in their own community. Throwing off the yoke of their dictator and their oligarch class, diversifying their economy off fossil fuels and stop drowning their sorrows in vodka and actually work to make babies instead so that their population doesn't continue shrinking.'

This is a fecking stupid (and racist) opinion and yet it's essentially what he wrote above about black people. If I wrote the above seriously, I would expect to be called out. It is also not the first time this particular poster has posted such views.

What a fecking insult to essentially suggest that all black people do is blame others and not look within. What a fecking insult to suggest all they do in America (between shooting each other and knocking up more women) is protest and flip the finger at police. And that people aren't also trying to make change within the utter shit that is the communities most of them have grown up in. This in a country where within living memory blacks still had to sit at the back of the bus.

There is quite a significant difference imo between

a) I don't know enough about this topic, please help to educate me
b) I don't know enough about this topic but I'll articulate some opinions that are misguided but ultimately well intentioned
c) I don't know enough about this topic but I'll spout my offensive nonsense regardless

I'm sick of pandering to c in particular, whether in real life or online.

Actually what you posted about Russia and Russians is to a large degree a very fair assessment. It may sound a bit harsh, but it's pretty much on the money.

 

[Rado_N]

All those redneck fecks lined up there will talk about the right to hold their weapons in case they “need” to fight an oppressive government, and they’re now out with their toys to help the government maintain its oppression on black people.

 

[Adisa]

I don't understand how the American people see this as normal nor do I understand why they won't surrender the second amendment. As you say for a developed country this is unbelievable.

As one of the comments suggested, imagine the protesters exercised their right to carry such weapons?