Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Valuedrug]

But yet we think new RW, new CB and new LB can fix it. Let’s just not do nothing and watch us rotate around a wheel like a rabbit.

If you are happy to swap a Dan James for a Jadon Sancho don’t ever question whats The point of swapping and Ole Gunnar Solksjaer for a Nagelsmann. It’s the same thing.

I mean obviously I would want to have better players and a better manager. Who wouldn't? None of us like the idea of stagnation.

The question I have, is how far any manager we could realistically expect to land can actually go with this structure inhibiting their work.

 

[Mainoldo]

I mean obviously I would want to have better players and a better manager. Who wouldn't? None of us like the idea of stagnation.

The question I have, is how far any manager we could realistically expect to land can actually go with this structure inhibiting their work.

Depends what you mean by poor structure? Do they get managerial appointments wrong? Yes. Do they offer stupid contract renewals? Yes. Do they take forever and a day to do a transfers and also help in ruining the good reputation of the manager? Yes.

But they pretty much let managers do what they want and give them a bucket load of money. Which is enough to win a league if you know what your doing. Otherwise Southampton would be competing for a title every year. They have everything but the finances.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Here is where we fundamentally disagree: OGS isn't under any pressure of being sacked from the club or vast majority of the fans. We all think life is good and we are moving in the right direction. It's only OleOUT who are inventing this pressure bubble in their echo chamber, it doesn't exist in real life.

I accept that we have fallen far from the top (average 5th since SAF left) and it takes gradual progress to get back to the top. We could have gotten there by now but Woodward imploded by sacking Mourinho, so we fell back abit.

I see OGS's progress as a wonderful glass half full and am prepared to give him the 3 or 4 years that Klopp and SAF got to produce a brilliant and title winning team. And I don't change my judgment after every 5 or 10 games (let alone the match by match guillotine OleOUT seem to jerk off with). Over a period of months, Ole has delivered on every tangible and quantitative metric he can be measured by. So he has my full unwavering support for this entire season.

I have progressive targets which I'd like him to reach which would comfort me for next season: If we cant win the league this season, be at least 10-12 points off the eventual winners, achieve at least 75 points, absolutely be in top 4, make last 16 in ECL and would be great to make a final in one of the cups. Id also like to see some improvements on key team metrics like goals scored and conceded, KM covered, forward passes, time in possession etc etc. And I'll make a personal assessment next summer.

Im enjoying the journey on our team improving as I know that will eventually lead to a title.

PS: Ole has had 1.5 seasons so far. Lets stop with the disingenuous number inflations; some OleOUT even try it on by saying he's in his 3rd season

You have noted your expectations for this season. What happens if we don't meet any of them?

 

[sammsky1]

You have noted your expectations for this season. What happens if we don't meet any of them?

My opinion is if he is backed with 2 more good players this window, then top 4 becomes un-negotiable. If he doesnt get those players, then Id have to reevaluate my expectations,

If he fails in that, then we have a serious discussion. But not before then.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Coaching and Patterns of play?
Is that what we should be talking about?

And subs

 

[Adnan]

I mean obviously I would want to have better players and a better manager. Who wouldn't? None of us like the idea of stagnation.

The question I have, is how far any manager we could realistically expect to land can actually go with this structure inhibiting their work.

I believe a manager can go pretty far under the present owners because they have made funds available. But if those funds are spent on players who don't fit the progressive style the manager wants to implement then things will look dysfunctional as far as progressing play from deeper goes especially against coordinated high pressure.

I'm willing to be patient with Solskjaer because I feel he's wanting to implement a attacking game plan which sacrifices defensive stability for goals. But he's bought two players in Maguire and AWB who don't suit playing in such a high risk approach hence I believe he's reverted to type and is employing a more conservative approach which suits the likes of Wan Bissaka, Maguire, Matic, Lindelof etc. Personally i'm hoping he gives Laird and Bailly a chance soon at RB and CB respectively which is a move that has potential to see us play a higher line and have a fullback who can help with width, triangles and overloads which is near enough non existent with Wan Bissaka.

 

[sammsky1]

I believe a manager can go pretty far under the present owners because they have made funds available. But if those funds are spent on players who don't fit the progressive style the manager wants to implement then things will look dysfunctional as far as progressing play from deeper goes especially against coordinated high pressure. I'm willing to be patient with Solskjaer because I feel he's wanting to implement a atacking game plan which sacrifices defensive stability for goals. But he's bought two players in Maguire and AWB who don't suit playing in such a high risk approach hence I believe he's reverted to type and is employing a more conservative approach which suits the likes of Wan Bissaka, Maguire, Matic, Lindelof etc. Personally i'm hoping he gives Laird and Bailly a chance soon at RB and CB respectively which is a move that has potential to see us play a higher line and have a fullback who can help with width, triangles and overloads which is near enough non existent with Wan Bissaka.

Yeah, that's doesn't seem to have worked at all, despite AwB being touted by many at the time of signing.
Did OGS get that wrong, or has his strategy flip flopped over time?

 

[Tom Cato]

The thing is, you're not wrong. Perhaps Pep has had his cycle and can no longer coach his team to be effective and get the most out of them.

Like all other clubs in Europe, his position should and is questioned.

Likewise, we should be applying the same standards to Ole/the manager of Utd.

That's what most of us are saying. Ole has had and deserved 2 years of time and it will not last much longer than that if we continue the way we are.

We finished 1 rank ahead of the ambition in the season that ended 8 weeks ago, an we are 2 games into this season.. WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT?

 

[Adnan]

Yeah, that's doesn't seem to have worked at all, despite AwB being touted by many at the time of signing.
Did OGS get that wrong, or has his strategy flip flopped over time?

Solskjaer has gone on record and said that AWB must contribute in attack because that's what is expected of a Man Utd fullback.

So it seems he's bought the wrong profile of player for the style he favours. But having said that he's still got options at the club that he can potentially utilise instead, and if utilised successfully he would deserve alot of credit IMO.

 

[R'hllor]

Christ, some people are really mental in here.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Your team has one of the best form over the last 20 games, and there is a Ole out poll? O_o

it is madness haha

 

[Forevergiggs1]

My opinion is if he is backed with 2 more good players this window, then top 4 becomes un-negotiable. If he doesnt get those players, then Id have to reevaluate my expectations,

If he fails in that, then we have a serious discussion. But not before then.

Fair enough. My expectations are a little lower than yours because I think he should play fringe/youth players in the domestic cups and shouldn't be criticised for it. Like yourself last 16 of the CL whilst not really seen as a success would probably be acceptable depending on how we play in the group games but where I deviate from you is top 4. That for me is the minimal requirement a United manager should be aiming for and for me if we don't make it then I don't think he should be carrying us forward. The only way I'd change my mind on that is if I see a marked consistent improvement in our play that could make me think it would be worth keeping him for at least another season.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Fair enough. My expectations are a little lower than yours because I think he should play fringe/youth players in the domestic cups and shouldn't be criticised for it. Like yourself last 16 of the CL whilst not really seen as a success would probably be acceptable depending on how we play in the group games but where I deviate from you is top 4. That for me is the minimal requirement a United manager should be aiming for and for me if we don't make it then I don't think he should be carrying us forward. The only way I'd change my mind on that is if I see a marked consistent improvement in our play that could make me think it would be worth keeping him for at least another season.

That’s exactly where I am

 

[Andycoleno9]

Coaching and Patterns of play?
Is that what we should be talking about?

It is something which we can't talk about. Because you all Ole in guys have only one theme. "Ole wants to play this and that. Ole wants to do this and that".
Patterns? Coaching? Nothing to talk about it. Pattern is stay back and counter. Coaching is : "Shoot"

 

[sammsky1]

Fair enough. My expectations are a little lower than yours because I think he should play fringe/youth players in the domestic cups and shouldn't be criticised for it. Like yourself last 16 of the CL whilst not really seen as a success would probably be acceptable depending on how we play in the group games but where I deviate from you is top 4. That for me is the minimal requirement a United manager should be aiming for and for me if we don't make it then I don't think he should be carrying us forward. The only way I'd change my mind on that is if I see a marked consistent improvement in our play that could make me think it would be worth keeping him for at least another season.

I generally agree but it has to be relative to the competition.
For example, given state of our squad at start of season and with Pogba's long term injury, even most fans thought we would finish outside top 4 last season, and I don't think that would have been OGS's fault. Getting top 4 (3rd!) was actually an over achievement.
Likewise, with Chelsea, Spurs and the rest doing great transfer business, I cant see how top 4 is a fair target without a new quality RW and new quality defender.
So 'top4' can only be mandated if the manager has the resources to pull it off. Especially with all the squad depth issues this season will bring.

One thing I really couldn't care less about is all this pseudo 'progressive football' rubbish OleOUTers seem obsessed about. It's a new phenomena which I don't get at all, from a fans point of view. Win games and points so I feel good after every game, challenge for trophies so we get to brag against other fans, and entertain me abit in the process and I'm all good. If Ole chooses to use triangles and triggers to help him do that, great. But if he doesn't and hits his targets, that's great too.

 

[sammsky1]

It is something which we can't talk about. Because you all Ole in guys have only one theme. "Ole wants to play this and that. Ole wants to do this and that".
Patterns? Coaching? Nothing to talk about it. Pattern is stay back and counter. Coaching is : "Shoot"

sure you can.
But too many in this thread state categorically that Ole is 'a disgrace' and 'sabotaging the clubs future' because he doesn't live up to their conceptual ideals.
I wont get on board with any of that.

 

[crossy1686]

It is something which we can't talk about. Because you all Ole in guys have only one theme. "Ole wants to play this and that. Ole wants to do this and that".
Patterns? Coaching? Nothing to talk about it. Pattern is stay back and counter. Coaching is : "Shoot"

My favourite pattern of play is where the ball goes from not being in the net, to being in the net. If we can do more of that, I think this team could go places.

 

[sammsky1]

Solskjaer has gone on record and said that AWB must contribute in attack because that's what is expected of a Man Utd fullback.
So it seems he's bought the wrong profile of player for the style he favours. But having said that he's still got options at the club that he can potentially utilise instead, and if utilised successfully he would deserve alot of credit IMO.

Interesting. so that does look like a transfer that is worthy of some criticism?
Yes, Ive been reading reports of building a stable of 4 full backs: 2 attack minded and 2 more defensive minded. That would be amazing if we could get into that kind of depth and variety.

 

[Amir]

For example, given state of our squad at start of season and with Pogba's long term injury, even most fans thought we would finish outside top 4 last season, and I don't think that would have been OGS's fault. Getting top 4 (3rd!) was actually an over achievement.
Likewise, with Chelsea, Spurs and the rest doing great transfer business, I cant see how top 4 is a fair target without a new quality RW and new quality defender.
So 'top4' can only be mandated if the manager has the resources to pull it off. Especially with all the squad depth issues this season will bring.

I think you are setting the bar awfully low. In retrospect, I can't see how finishing in the top four last season is an over achievement, when you look at Leicester's collapse and Chelsea's problems. Don't get me wrong - Solskjaer did well to get us on that run in the latter half of the season, but looking at it overall, OVER achievement is a reach.

As for this season - yeah, other have made signings, but you never know how they is going to pan out and we can already see other teams are struggling. We did add one player so far, as well as Fernandes back in January. Pogba has been back for a long time. It's not good enough, but it's not poor either. I wouldn't expect Solskjaer to close the gap significantly on Liverpool without more additions, but making top 4 an unfair target is really belittling the club and squad. And even Solskjaer to a degree. This is where a manager is tested.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

I generally agree but it has to be relative to the competition.
For example, given state of our squad at start of season and with Pogba's long term injury, even most fans thought we would finish outside top 4 last season, and I don't think that would have been OGS's fault. Getting top 4 (3rd!) was actually an over achievement.
Likewise, with Chelsea, Spurs and the rest doing great transfer business, I cant see how top 4 is a fair target without a new quality RW and new quality defender.
So 'top4' can only be mandated if the manager has the resources to pull it off. Especially with all the squad depth issues this season will bring.

One thing I really couldn't care less about is all this pseudo 'progressive football' rubbish OleOUTers seem obsessed about. It's a new phenomena which I don't get at all, from a fans point of view. Win games and points so I feel good after every game, challenge for trophies so we get to brag against other fans, and entertain me abit in the process and I'm all good. If Ole chooses to use triangles and triggers to help him do that, great. But if he doesn't and hits his targets, that's great too.

I still think top 4 is there for the taking this season. Its true most teams have had a better transfer window than us up in till now but I still think other than Liverpool we still have one of the best starting 11s in the league. Where we need to improve on from last season is man management. Ole has to trust his squad more than he did. Rashford was a risk he should never have taken. Pogba should never have been brought back for a relatively meaningless game against Rochdale. Maquire shouldn't have to play every single second, the same as AWB. I understand our fringe players aren't anywhere near as good as our starting 11 but there's always games where our regular starters could be given a rest. Having VDB is going to help a lot in that respect and we have numbers in CM so if we do have an injury or 2 it's not going to affect us too much.

If Ole uses the squad wisely and not play the same starting 11 game after game then burn out shouldn't be a factor like it was at the end of last season so even though I think Ole has been dealt a tough hand so far in the transfer window I still think we have it all in place to finish in the top 4.

 

[OneUnited24]

Watching wolves and city does anyone else subscribe to the theory that the teams that went further in European competitions last year had less time to prepare for this season and as a result we all look out of sorts?

palace was bad and we weren’t great against Brighton but these are two teams who had 4-5 weeks rest (compared to our 3-4) and 3-4 preseason games (compared to our one) with an extra competitive game too. At this level that can do wonders for your sharpness. Ole has some learning to do but I think people are overreacting about our performances. The fitness is there but would sharpness is not.

if this continues after the internationals I’ll be worried. For now I’m just going to hope we get more sharpness together

 

[Flytan]

FFS its been two games this season for Wan Bissaka after starting late and not having a preseason because he went to Dubai and had to quarantine on the way back. The beauty of playing for Leicester or Palace vs playing for United is that at mid-table clubs people only remember the good games, while at United, the bad games are magnified just as much if not more.

You conveniently forgot Fred, who looked like a proper premier league midfielder for the majority of last season under Ole, Shaw who found a new lease of life, Rashford who's broken the 20 goal barrier along with Martial for the first time and the two of them alongside Greenwood and Fernandes look as potent an attack as any in Europe for most of last season.

Accidentally forgot Fred, who yes looked great last season for the most part. Shaw has found a new "lease of life" like three times throughout his career. Whether it be injuries, contract situation, or confidence Shaw's form is entirely an enigma to everyone. I'm interested to see how Greenwood and Fernandes progress this season, I don't think it'll go as smoothly as people think solely because I think ole is a mediocre manager. You guys freak out because I think the dude has done a mediocre job. Do you think he's done a good job? I can't possibly fathom that when Mouriniho/LVG were fired for similar performances (they won trophies at least). The only thing he is is that he played here before. I said I believed he earned the right to manage this season and I'm not calling for his head now, I just think the season will be a failure and he'll be gone.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Here is where we fundamentally disagree: OGS isn't under any pressure of being sacked from the club or vast majority of the fans. We all think life is good and we are moving in the right direction. It's only OleOUT who are inventing this pressure bubble in their echo chamber, it doesn't exist in real life. Ole has had 1.5 seasons so far. Lets stop with the disingenuous inflation; some OleOUT even try it on by saying he's in his 3rd season

I accept that we have fallen far from the top (average 5th since SAF left) and it takes gradual progress to get back to the top. We could have gotten there by now but Woodward imploded by sacking Mourinho, so we fell back abit.

I see OGS's progress as a wonderful glass half full and am prepared to give him the 3 or 4 years that Klopp and SAF got to produce a brilliant and title winning team. And I don't change my judgment after every 5 or 10 games (let alone the match by match guillotine OleOUT seem to jerk off with). Over a period of months, Ole has delivered on every tangible and quantitative metric he can be measured by. So he has my full unwavering support for this entire season.

I have progressive targets which I'd like him to reach which would comfort me for the following season: If we cant win the league this season, be at least 10-12 points off the eventual winners, achieve at least 75 points, absolutely be in top 4, make last 16 in ECL and would be great to make a final in one of the cups. Id also like to see some improvements on key team metrics like goals scored and conceded, km covered, forward passes, time in possession etc etc. And I'll make a personal assessment next summer.

Im enjoying the journey on our team improving as I know that will eventually lead to a title.

Your expectations are almost precisely mine then, except I expect us to do that with the current squad. I also don't see how we are going to achieve that and laid down the foundations to be stronger the next year without some serious coaching. I haven't seen anything tactically to really give Ole benefit of the doubt. I don't 'mind' losing or not being 'competitive' (in moderation) if I can see there's plan to get towards there. At the moment, each game is being treated like a fresh project. There's simply no cohesion.

For me, it's like Mourinho's second season. Despite coming 2nd, I and many was still seriously concerned with our style of play i.e it wasn't sustainable and it proved the next year.

We were stretching the limits of our shithousery and unorganised play with individual brilliance. Would Mourinho had a better third season with an extra couple hundred million worth of talent? Of course he would but then again it would have been the same had he 'achieved' a good result and was still the manager as the end of year three i.e it would take disproportionate investment to continually improve.

I would like to see the current squad play in a structured way where we're not huffing and puffing defending and creating chances without needing to play pedal to the metal.

We talk about fitness and tiredness etc but half the reason we are like that is because there's no system or patterns of plays for the players to rely on. I've said this in other posts, the issue isn't 'effort', the issue is a lack of direction.

Bruno is running like a mad man because 1) that's just his elite attitude but also 2) he's filling in gaps and overexerting himself because there are too many frequent gaps in our pressing/attacking play and defending. That is not an one-off, it's many many games. Ole is responsible for that. Would we a better team if we had 11 players like Bruno? Of course. You can blame the board for that. Would we be playing like a well oiled drum (like all top teams) and be competing for serious silverware under Ole? Well none of us knows but if he can't get the current team to at least display that consistently, how do we expect 'progress' to be just a linear curve for Ole? It's a massive stab in the dark.

 

[sammsky1]

I still think top 4 is there for the taking this season. Its true most teams have had a better transfer window than us up in till now but I still think other than Liverpool we still have one of the best starting 11s in the league. Where we need to improve on from last season is man management. Ole has to trust his squad more than he did. Rashford was a risk he should never have taken. Pogba should never have been brought back for a relatively meaningless game against Rochdale. Maquire shouldn't have to play every single second, the same as AWB. I understand our fringe players aren't anywhere near as good as our starting 11 but there's always games where our regular starters could be given a rest. Having VDB is going to help a lot in that respect and we have numbers in CM so if we do have an injury or 2 it's not going to affect us too much.
If Ole uses the squad wisely and not play the same starting 11 game after game then burn out shouldn't be a factor like it was at the end of last season so even though I think Ole has been dealt a tough hand so far in the transfer window I still think we have it all in place to finish in the top 4.

I think this is a very fair criticism and one I was also screaming about on here during the post lockdown run in. Thankfully we are already seeing evidence of this, as OGS rotates to give all players game time, and is something he will simply have to do, given we have 5 games every 14 days for 8 months.

 

[Renegade]

Why does he not play the 433 that got him the job in the first place? Bruno and pogba as 8’s sharing the creative workload with Matic/Fred providing the anchor. Rashford and Greenwood would be closer to Martial too. Pogba best asset is his deep pass so I don’t agree with people saying his a number 10. His best football for Juve was as a inside left CM.

We’re playing Bruno as a 10, but he finds himself in the #8 areas of the pitch anyway. All that does is create a huge gap between midfield and Martial.

Bruno Matic pogba
Greenwood Martial Rashford

Much better balance with they shape. Again, this was the formation he used the first 6 months. I remember how random it was when he suddenly went with this rigid 4231 formation last season.

I’m in the camp of believing deep down Ole doesn’t have a system. I’m not saying we should sack him but I do feel we are delaying the inevitable. There’s no way he takes us to where we need to be.

You want to play from the back but sign a RB that isn’t comfortable attacking or moving forward with the ball? Our CB’s are too slow to recover when stepping forward and our highest earner is a GK who isn’t comfortable with the ball at his feet. I feel like he wants to play that way because it’s the “in” thing with coaches right now.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

I generally agree but it has to be relative to the competition.
For example, given state of our squad at start of season and with Pogba's long term injury, even most fans thought we would finish outside top 4 last season, and I don't think that would have been OGS's fault. Getting top 4 (3rd!) was actually an over achievement.
Likewise, with Chelsea, Spurs and the rest doing great transfer business, I cant see how top 4 is a fair target without a new quality RW and new quality defender.
So 'top4' can only be mandated if the manager has the resources to pull it off. Especially with all the squad depth issues this season will bring.

One thing I really couldn't care less about is all this pseudo 'progressive football' rubbish OleOUTers seem obsessed about. It's a new phenomena which I don't get at all, from a fans point of view. Win games and points so I feel good after every game, challenge for trophies so we get to brag against other fans, and entertain me abit in the process and I'm all good. If Ole chooses to use triangles and triggers to help him do that, great. But if he doesn't and hits his targets, that's great too.

Our squad is easily third best, that is why top 4 is a minimum. Spurs and Chelsea business does make them competitive for top 4 but they are still a level below us. If we get Sancho and a LB then a title chase should be the target.

I fell in love with United purely because of how we played. Progressive football is not only entertaining but it seems to be the only way that top teams play. There is a reason why all the top coaches chose this style and have been so successful.

 

[Foxbatt]

Most people don't care if there is a triangle or a square if we keep winning matches.
The issue of these things come up because the Ole in at all cost brigade talks about progress when we don't win.
So long as Ole wins more matches and get us competing no one cares.
Why should the Ole out brigade get him out if he keeps winning? It's utterly ridiculous to even think any genuine manchester united fan or supporter wants a manager who is winning matches and be successful to be sacked.

 

[sammsky1]

Most people don't care if there is a triangle or a square if we keep winning matches.
The issue of these things come up because the Ole in at all cost brigade talks about progress when we don't win.
So long as Ole wins more matches and get us competing no one cares.
Why should the Ole out brigade get him out if he keeps winning? It's utterly ridiculous to even think any genuine manchester united fan or supporter wants a manager who is winning matches and be successful to be sacked.

We've lost one (1) league game in last 16 PL games.

Fancy reading this thread since Burnley loss on 22nd Jan to prove those claims?

 

[Dante]

Keep Ole. His vision for the future of the club is spot. The issue is the coaching.

Sack a couple out of Phelan, Carrick and McKenna. Bring in some backroom staff with a history of coaching the style of play Ole obviously wants to implement (quick tempo, high line, high risk passing in the final third, playing out from the back, counter attacking, etc).

The later years of Fergie is the model Ole should be trying to emulate. He's got a similar vibe of delegating to leaders on the pitch, emphasising club culture, expecting perfection, and acting as the squad's father figure. He doesn't need to be leading the training every day.

 

[R'hllor]

I love livescore watchers /respect

 

[DRJosh]

As daft as this sounds, I bet that some of us on here would be temporarily less critical of Ole for the next few days on the basis that City and Chelsea both failed to get 3 points on the weekend. None of those results have obviously anything to do with Ole but that is how reactionary our fans have become.

Some of us seem to judge Ole on every benchmark (whether logical or otherwise) we can get our hands on to aggrandise our view of him. I guess that's the Internet.

 

[Withnail]

Most people don't care if there is a triangle or a square if we keep winning matches.
The issue of these things come up because the Ole in at all cost brigade talks about progress when we don't win.
So long as Ole wins more matches and get us competing no one cares.
Why should the Ole out brigade get him out if he keeps winning? It's utterly ridiculous to even think any genuine manchester united fan or supporter wants a manager who is winning matches and be successful to be sacked.

This is a complete misrepresentation of what goes on after a defeat.

This thread blows up after a loss with all sorts of stuff about body language of the manager, style of play/patterns blah blah blah (although the list of complaints is getting shorter which points to progress he's made)

This is why it's characterised as a knee-jerk reaction. You'll notice it's calmed down a fair bit since City/Bayern/Wolves etc got their asses handed to them and it appears that match fitness and pre-seasons actually do make a difference to performances.

Due to the thread blowing up there is a backlash against the backlash and other people who think it's too soon to sack the manager point to the progress he's made etc.

No one who thinks the manager shouldn't be sacked at this stage is coming in here to bleat on about progress after a defeat out of the blue.

As for your last point, I get the impression there are a fair few who can't wait for Ole to fail so that he can be fired as they see this as inevitable due to him not being good enough in their eyes. The fact that managers only really have a shelf life of a 3 - 4 years at a top club and they all get fired eventually will be completely lost on those few when they come crowing with the 'I told you so's' whenever he does depart.

Just because a manager eventually gets fired, as they all do, doesn't mean people were right not to support the manager when he was doing good work.

 

[FatherWolff]

I think this is a very fair criticism and one I was also screaming about on here during the post lockdown run in. Thankfully we are already seeing evidence of this, as OGS rotates to give all players game time, and is something he will simply have to do, given we have 5 games every 14 days for 8 months.

Yes. But it was evident that he doesn’t trust the bench options at the end. Also, the bench against Brighton speak volumes - unless someone was injured. But this time he has no choice, I agree.

 

[balaks]

Keep Ole. His vision for the future of the club is spot. The issue is the coaching.

Sack a couple out of Phelan, Carrick and McKenna. Bring in some backroom staff with a history of coaching the style of play Ole obviously wants to implement (quick tempo, high line, high risk passing in the final third, playing out from the back, counter attacking, etc).

The later years of Fergie is the model Ole should be trying to emulate. He's got a similar vibe of delegating to leaders on the pitch, emphasising club culture, expecting perfection, and acting as the squad's father figure. He doesn't need to be leading the training every day.

The obsession with trying to emulate Ferguson is what is holding your club back in my opinion

 

[Dante]

The obsession with trying to emulate Ferguson is what is holding your club back in my opinion

There are numerous Fergie models over his 26 year reign.

The only setup he didn't find himself in was under a DoF. But seeing as we don't have one of those, copying one of Fergie's examples is inevitable, hence why I mentioned the specific era.

On a Manchester United forum, it's an obvious reference. On a Bayern Munich forum, they might mention Otmar Hitzfeld to make the identical point. On a Spurs forum they might mention, like, I don't know, Martin Jol.

 

[MattofManchester]

This is a complete misrepresentation of what goes on after a defeat.

This thread blows up after a loss with all sorts of stuff about body language of the manager, style of play/patterns blah blah blah (although the list of complaints is getting shorter which points to progress he's made)

This is why it's characterised as a knee-jerk reaction. You'll notice it's calmed down a fair bit since City/Bayern/Wolves etc got their asses handed to them and it appears that match fitness and pre-seasons actually do make a difference to performances.

Due to the thread blowing up there is a backlash against the backlash and other people who think it's too soon to sack the manager point to the progress he's made etc.

No one who thinks the manager shouldn't be sacked at this stage is coming in here to bleat on about progress after a defeat out of the blue.

As for your last point, I get the impression there are a fair few who can't wait for Ole to fail so that he can be fired as they see this as inevitable due to him not being good enough in their eyes. The fact that managers only really have a shelf life of a 3 - 4 years at a top club and they all get fired eventually will be completely lost on those few when they come crowing with the 'I told you so's' whenever he does depart.

Just because a manager eventually gets fired, as they all do, doesn't mean people were right not to support the manager when he was doing good work.

So you'd prefer blind support, without reason?
Both sides have credible points, but your suggestions seem ludicrous.

For one, body language. Ole's body language HAS changed. It looks like someone who is withdrawn and detached. Honestly, if he was my leader, he would inspire no confidence in me. That's a simple judgment based on observing him.

Also, knee-jerk seems a tad inconsistent in its use here, as I recall many of the Ole Out crowd being Ole Out for a very long time now, so your point is a bit moot.

Finally, didn't we beat Brighton? So, it doesn't seem to be just when we lose, does it? Inclusive of me, that result was tragic, and if we keep going in the same manner as we have for the past two games, it's going to be a bad season.

Thats not wanting Oale to fail, that's just failing optimism. Expect the worst, and you won't be disappointed.

I get some of the Ole Out crowd are over the top, but some of the staunch support in favour of Ole seems over the top as well, ignoring reason.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Seems like many of the Ole out crowd are professional football coaches and body language experts. Who would have thought there would be so many of them in a single Man United forum. This place is really special.

 

[Withnail]

So you'd prefer blind support, without reason?
Both sides have credible points, but your suggestions seem ludicrous.

For one, body language. Ole's body language HAS changed. It looks like someone who is withdrawn and detached. Honestly, if he was my leader, he would inspire no confidence in me. That's a simple judgment based on observing him.

Also, knee-jerk seems a tad inconsistent in its use here, as I recall many of the Ole Out crowd being Ole Out for a very long time now, so your point is a bit moot.

Finally, didn't we beat Brighton? So, it doesn't seem to be just when we lose, does it? Inclusive of me, that result was tragic, and if we keep going in the same manner as we have for the past two games, it's going to be a bad season.

Thats not wanting Oale to fail, that's just failing optimism. Expect the worst, and you won't be disappointed.

I get some of the Ole Out crowd are over the top, but some of the staunch support in favour of Ole seems over the top as well, ignoring reason.

It's not a case of blind support and I never said there should be. I have no idea where you are getting that from.

I'm saying it's far too soon to be talking about sacking and the fact is, based on the poll, that is still the overwhelming majority view.

Some have been Ole out for a long time, yes, but they're very quiet unless we lose or, sorry, don't play very well. Then it's all crap, everything's terrible, Ole's useless, we're not coached etc etc.
I also said that is why it is characterised as knee-jerk. You do understand the difference between stating it's a knee-jerk reaction and stating it is being characterised as a knee-jerk reaction?

If we keep going as we have for the past two games yes it would be a bad season, but how likely is that? The players will get fitter and sharper with more game-time and performances will improve.
The performance against Brighton was an improvement on the Palace one as we looked more dangerous. I don't think we ever really looked like scoring against Palace at all.

The body language thing is completely overblown and wouldn't be up for discussion if we were two from two. Do you think the players are looking over at the bench during games to be 'inspired'?
Team talks before the game and at half time and what is said in training have more impact on a team then what a manager is doing on the bench. I don't think that can be really disputed.

 

[shaky]

Seems like many of the Ole out crowd are professional football coaches and body language experts. Who would have thought there would be so many of them in a single Man United forum. This place is really special.

As a practicing geomancer, I can confirm that the feng shui of Ole's office at Old Trafford is also an absolute embarrassment for a top level manager in today's game. The furniture arrangement is, unsurprisingly, like something you'd find in a lower Championship level office.

 

[jackal&hyde]

As a practicing geomancer, I can confirm that the feng shui of Ole's office at Old Trafford is also an absolute embarrassment for a top level manager in today's game. The furniture arrangement is, unsurprisingly, like something you'd find in a lower Championship level office.

wow good to know. Well that's me joining the other side then. Got to get my "patterns of play" shirt now.