The Athletic ~ Inside United's 6-1 fallout: Half-time rows, Solskjaer backed, transfer regrets

lex talionis

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Of the four managers we’ve hired since Sir Alex — Giggsy was always a caretaker manager — who among them would we say Woodward brought in the best available, based on recent accomplishments?

None of them. We hoped Moyes had the Scot DNA to take his ability to the next level. We hoped LVG could recreate magic from a long time ago. We hoped Mourinho could recreate magic from a long time ago. We hoped that Ole’s United DNA could propel him to the standard we expect of a United manager, admittedly an extremely high bar set by Ferguson.

Since Sir Alex left, we’ve never had a footballing strategy. We’ve lurched from one philosophy to another, making poor buys along the way with a few exceptions like Bruno.
 

Greck

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That doesn't augur well. They've had multiple stories already about the club's insider happenings. I sincerely hope it doesn't become a trend.
Yeah their business model is subscription based so they need to be credible with their scoops or they'll lose subscribers. Other online outlets are based on traffic so they're willing to post anything that gets people clicking
 

united_99

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Yeah, maybe I am partially responsible and I apologise for my part in that.

That's why I'd rather not talk about him anymore as I have no interest in going around in circles about something I don't care for, etc.

My main question, and I'm not sure if it has been answered is, if any of the claims have been verified? I hope these leaks do not become the norm.
No worries, no idea what the poster’s issue is who was complaining earlier. The op of this thread / the Athletic quotes already mentions so many different topics so of course this thread will get “derailed”. It’s hardly one of the forums main threads.
About your last paragraph leaks (some might be true, some made up) always happen after a bad run and especially during international breaks.
If we had won and Bruno had an argument with Maguire no one would care.
 

Rado_N

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Let's make it simple. You can argue it was a shit result. I could just as well argue the league is far more competitive that particular season. Due to covid and all that.

Which exception should we accept when considering the data at hand? or would it be wiser to just accept the league position as it is and look to track the trends over long term to see if it was just a blip or a consistent trend? I think I would rather look at the bigger picture rather than just dismiss the results on the basis of my own assumption

I think the team has been performing poorly for 7 years. And we've blamed and changed multiple managers during that time. So I guess, up to a certain extent, I could agree with you.
I’m not sure how you’re trying to bring covid into it when the worst period of the season was pre-lockdown.

Dress it up anyway you like, it was a bad season.

I do agree we’ve been underperforming since SAF left.

Isn't last season our success criteria was to qualify for CL.
I know 66 points is very low but its does do that job isn't it?
I don't blindly support Ole, and you can twist it as much you like, but last season was good season. We do achieve our target.
Yea... no.
 

tombombadil

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No worries, no idea what the poster’s issue is who was complaining earlier. The op of this thread / the Athletic quotes already mentions so many different topics so of course this thread will get “derailed”. It’s hardly one of the forums main threads.
About your last paragraph leaks (some might be true, some made up) always happen after a bad run and especially during international breaks.
If we had won and Bruno had an argument with Maguire no one would care.
Yeah I just hope things get better after the international break.
 

tombombadil

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I’m not sure how you’re trying to bring covid into it when the worst period of the season was pre-lockdown.

Dress it up anyway you like, it was a bad season.

I do agree we’ve been underperforming since SAF left.



Yea... no.
I'm not sure if it is appropriate for us to continue this here? As we are derailing the thread? Do we have another thread we can resume this?
 

Nicoseth

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I agree with you. The club was so idiotically stupid to sack Mourinho, emboldened by a lot of moany digital fans (match going fans were always behind him). Had they listened to him (Pogba) and backed him with players he obviously needed in that last transfer window (a world class centre back and right winger), I'm sure he'd have seriously challenged or maybe even won the league in year 3 and been in place to win in year 4.

I'm fascinated to see his work at Spurs. Now he has a better CEO to work with, despite having seriously smaller budgets, he has quickly amassed a stellar squad suited to his liking. No-one at the club is moaning about his management of Alli (compare to Pogba), and I think he has a better chance to reach top 4 than we have this year. Bale will prove to be a monster signing.
Disagree with your entire post, mate. First of all, digital fans? United have millions of fans around the world and only a tiny percentage of them are lucky enough to be close enough to OT to attend. Many of us, myself included, live in different countries where our only opportunity to see them live is when they come for a game away from OT. My inability to attend games doesn't make me any less of a fan than those who attend games.

You're deluded if you think that we would have been successful under Mourinho in that third year. How many players had he alienated or humiliated? Pogba, Shaw, Martial to name but a few. For someone who whined about not being backed he didn't exactly do a lot to endear himself to the players he already had. People forget how horrendous we were in that third season. Do we remember the surrender to Sevilla, the embarrassment of the first half against Newcastle, the hammering by Liverpool. And there were so many more. Mourinho is doing well at Spurs, but remember it was rosy at United in that first year too. Time will tell how he does. Bale was bought injured and hasn't kicked a ball for them yet - monster signing - I don't think so.
 

bond19821982

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I agree with you. The club was so idiotically stupid to sack Mourinho, emboldened by a lot of moany digital fans (match going fans were always behind him). Had they listened to him (Pogba) and backed him with players he obviously needed in that last transfer window (a world class centre back and right winger), I'm sure he'd have seriously challenged or maybe even won the league in year 3 and been in place to win in year 4.

I'm fascinated to see his work at Spurs. Now he has a better CEO to work with, despite having seriously smaller budgets, he has quickly amassed a stellar squad suited to his liking. No-one at the club is moaning about his management of Alli (compare to Pogba), and I think he has a better chance to reach top 4 than we have this year. Bale will prove to be a monster signing.
Agree. We knew what we were getting yet we expected entirely different things from him.
 

Isotope

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Still moaning about sacking of Morinho, ffs. He always had one strong season. After that though..
Sacked by Madrid, sacked by Chelsea, sacked by United.
 

sammsky1

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Disagree with your entire post, mate. First of all, digital fans? United have millions of fans around the world and only a tiny percentage of them are lucky enough to be close enough to OT to attend. Many of us, myself included, live in different countries where our only opportunity to see them live is when they come for a game away from OT. My inability to attend games doesn't make me any less of a fan than those who attend games.

You're deluded if you think that we would have been successful under Mourinho in that third year. How many players had he alienated or humiliated? Pogba, Shaw, Martial to name but a few. For someone who whined about not being backed he didn't exactly do a lot to endear himself to the players he already had. People forget how horrendous we were in that third season. Do we remember the surrender to Sevilla, the embarrassment of the first half against Newcastle, the hammering by Liverpool. And there were so many more. Mourinho is doing well at Spurs, but remember it was rosy at United in that first year too. Time will tell how he does. Bale was bought injured and hasn't kicked a ball for them yet - monster signing - I don't think so.
Pogba Shaw and Martial, those paragons of consistency required to mount a title challenge :lol:

Perhaps Mourinho who is a winner falls out with people who don’t share this trait?

I’m also not a match going fan and don’t have an insecurity issue about my importance!
 

GiddyUp

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What Utd need :

- Top class tactical coach. Sack Carrick & Mckenna. Ole is a good man manager, and even Fergie needed good tactical coaches.
- A sporting director who will manage the direction of the club, and will be in charge of recruitment/negotiation.
- A CB, DM and RW in the next window. Along with a massive clear out of deadwood.
I totally agree, McKenna & Carrick have to go if Ole plans on staying. I've rarely come across a top football team that constantly fails at the basics.
 

Rado_N

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Let's talk hypotheticals. Which is the more successful season to you, finishing 2nd with 60 points or finishing 4th with 80 points?
What is this hypothetical question supposed to achieve?

I don’t understand the need for all the mental gymnastics. Surely to god we can all agree 66 points and 18 wins is not a good season ffs?!
 

Bilbo

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What is this hypothetical question supposed to achieve?

I don’t understand the need for all the mental gymnastics. Surely to god we can all agree 66 points and 18 wins is not a good season ffs?!
Its all relative when talking about points totals and win %'s though. 66 points being enough for 3rd place suggests a stronger overall league than one where you'd need 80.
 

sammsky1

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I totally agree, McKenna & Carrick have to go if Ole plans on staying. I've rarely come across a top football team that constantly fails at the basics.
As someone is is passionately OleIN, I find this decision of his as indefensible. I think Ole is a good choice as manager now because of his understanding of the club DNA and his people skills.

But his footballing experience does have a glaring hole in top level tactical coaching and his current support team doesn’t mitigate that gap.

Just as SAF hired Queirez to add knowledge and fast track his teams ability to compete in Europe, so Ole should have identified some of the top coaches on modern German football to help him compete with KloppBall.
 

Hoof the ball

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It's not that Ole needs to be a top-class tactician or coach, but he does need top-class coaches in his employ if he wants to play the kind of football he's trying to implement. McKenna and Carrick is an interesting appointment, but let's be honest, McKenna only has experience managing in the youth teams and Carrick has no experience at all other than some very recent coaching opportunities within the club. The "coaches from within" ideology only serves the club well if they have the quality to add something to the squad. There's no point making "culture preserving" appointments if the quality drops as a result.

We need a fresh, quality and somewhat experienced backroom staff to work with Ole. If they can't do that then Ole is doomed to fail. Make no mistake, if Pochettino comes in the first thing he'll do is bring his specialists.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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Why are two of the best young talents in Europe unrealistic? Because the board refused to pay for sancho this year???

Nothing at all wrong with our manager having a clear indication of the players he wants and its up to the board to try and deliver them.

Also doesn't Haaland have a release clause this Year? Soemthing like €50m (not certain so don't crucify me if I'm wrong).

€170 million Euro outlay isn't the end of the world for us.

And I personally think from the little I know about those lads (from watching play, interviews with and about them) that they fit exactly with the profile of player we should have as our top targets.
It's actually 75 million Euros and the clause kicks in after 2021 (according to some other sources in 2022). That is, of course, if no one else wants Haaland by that time. In our current state, with no guaranteed CL spot and far away from challenging for the league title, i doubt he would choose us over the likes of Real Madrid or Bayern Munich (who will be looking for a Lewandowski replacement by then). And we've already played the familiarity card (Solskjaer) when he was much cheaper and he snubbed us by choosing BvB for the next step of his development. Last but not least, BvB are in no hurry to sell him. So, there's that...

As for Sancho, again BvB are not in any hurry to let the player go. His contract expires in 2023 and the Germans can afford to wait until next summer when the market will be more stable and therefore more big clubs will be willing to pay north of 100 million for the player. And between you and me... i would laugh my arse off if the people who paid 80 freaking million for Harry Maguire came to me with 100 million for Sancho. I wouldn't even sit at the table to negotiate any deal that doesn't start at 120 million.

Additionally, why the hell would BvB choose to throw their whole season away by selling their two greatest assets at the same time? Because we asked them to?

In this transfer window, unfortunately, we're talking about way more than 150 million Euros. More likely over 200 million. And there's also Graelish, who is/was a Solskajer target too. Not many people talk about him now because we pulled out of that deal early on when we realized that AV were not going to budge on their asking price and because you have to be a lunatic to believe that Graelish deserves a fee like the one purported.

All in all, i'd say all three were pretty unrealistic targets for this summer. United don't have unlimited funds, the players didn't seem willing to push for a move and their respective clubs were not willing to sell. If Solskajer doesn't want any other players, it's his problem. And believe me, i hold no love for Ed and the Glazers but, in this case, he seems to be the easy target. Quite possibly, we saw the same scene play out last season with Bruno. This also looked like a case of "him or no one". We ended up with Lingard and Pereira getting crucial minutes. When the wheels came off and Solskjaer was hanging by a thread, Woodward didn't sack him but he signed Bruno instead, with the indication (leaked to the press too) that the money for the transfer came from this window's budget. Solskajer saved his job and what does he do? He asks for three new "Brunos" because, as his loyal supports claim, we'll miss out on CL qualification. That's an investment of >200 million on top of 200 million already spent (assuming the players want to come to OT). Close to 400 million in two seasons for what? To avoid finishing outside the CL spots in the worst case scenario and reduce the gap from the top two from 33 points to 15 (that would be us matching Mou's second season) in the best case one? Nah, the manager, his staff and the players must show more things on the pitch.
 
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Rado_N

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Its all relative when talking about points totals and win %'s though. 66 points being enough for 3rd place suggests a stronger overall league than one where you'd need 80.
Only really if you didn’t actually watch the football being played.
 

Nicoseth

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Pogba Shaw and Martial, those paragons of consistency required to mount a title challenge :lol:

Perhaps Mourinho who is a winner falls out with people who don’t share this trait?

I’m also not a match going fan and don’t have an insecurity issue about my importance!
Shaw and Martial were pretty consistent last year when they weren't thrown under the bus by their manager every week. Mourinho was a winner. Not any more. One big result over us doesn't make him amazing again.
 

sammsky1

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Shaw and Martial were pretty consistent last year when they weren't thrown under the bus by their manager every week. Mourinho was a winner. Not any more. One big result over us doesn't make him amazing again.
Consistent for a team who barely scrapped into 3rd.
That’s very different to being consistent in a title challenging team or one that gets 80+ points.

well have to agree to disagree on Mourinho: give him the tools and he will deliver .
 

Nicoseth

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Consistent for a team who barely scrapped into 3rd.
That’s very different to being consistent in a title challenging team or one that gets 80+ points.

well have to agree to disagree on Mourinho: give him the tools and he will deliver .
Fair enough, mate. Agree to disagree indeed. What are your thoughts on Ole? You think he'll survive or a matter of time before he goes?
 

Bastian

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It's not that Ole needs to be a top-class tactician or coach, but he does need top-class coaches in his employ if he wants to play the kind of football he's trying to implement. McKenna and Carrick is an interesting appointment, but let's be honest, McKenna only has experience managing in the youth teams and Carrick has no experience at all other than some very recent coaching opportunities within the club. The "coaches from within" ideology only serves the club well if they have the quality to add something to the squad. There's no point making "culture preserving" appointments if the quality drops as a result.

We need a fresh, quality and somewhat experienced backroom staff to work with Ole. If they can't do that then Ole is doomed to fail. Make no mistake, if Pochettino comes in the first thing he'll do is bring his specialists.
Yeah, this is the thing. I do agree we need top class coaches, experienced coaches. But Ole surely has to identify his own limitations. There is no way the club wouldn't "back him" to hire 2-3 top coaches. Yet, he only brought in Phelan. Maybe the easiest solution is to have a manager who has a clear vision and knows how to implement it.
 

soapythecat

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This article kind of feels like the kind of stuff Neil Ashton got the PR job from Ed for. My feeling this last few days is the press are turning on Ole and it feels just like it was with Jose prior to him getting the chop.
Can’t say I’m too bothered as I don’t feel Ole is the man for us, but if Ed is behind it it’s a bit shit.
 

sammsky1

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Fair enough, mate. Agree to disagree indeed. What are your thoughts on Ole? You think he'll survive or a matter of time before he goes?
I’m also OleIN, but I doubt he’ll survive. The sequence of events since positive end to last season has created a toxic environment and false sense of expectations.

He now has the task of dramatically increasing team self belief, fixing his defence and acclimating new signings all during a very difficult set of fixtures.

Pressure may become unbearable by November, especially with fan pressure to appoint Pochettino. my frustration is all that could have been avoided had club for in new signings for the start of the season
 
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ROFLUTION

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The world does not revolve around Haaland and Sancho. I hope OGS and the club realise that and realise there are hundreds and thousands of players out there waiting to be unearthed. Just ask SAF how he had to regularly settle for alternatives.

Infact some of the times where it looked like we got the first choice, they weren’t actually that good. Veron seemed like a player SAF wanted and could at the time because Utd could then have the financial muscle to go against the Italians and Spaniards after suffering in the 90s... but Veron wasn’t that great for us from a team perspective despite being obviously a very talented player.

And look at Pogba...his transfer saga was almost like Sanchos this summer. An obviously good player who we saw as taking us to the next level but let’s face it, Pogba hasn’t done that.

I don’t think OGS is talented enough to make unfancied players fit into an amazing system like Klopp or SAF can or did do... but he can find the emerging talent early and develop them, with the help of our scouting system... or he can lay the railroad for the next manager to run the train over so to speak.
Good post. With a high price, also comes extreme expectations because we are so much in need for succes and are such a big club. The high prices for these players will almost certainly not fit the performances on field and their performances might even suffer like Sanchez, as they are targetted as United's savior / final piece to the puzzle. Solskjær has turned out to be a good manager for a lot of talents who didnt perform under José.
 

Zen86

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What is this hypothetical question supposed to achieve?

I don’t understand the need for all the mental gymnastics. Surely to god we can all agree 66 points and 18 wins is not a good season ffs?!
I can’t see an answer, but I’m sure you know the point I’m making here.
 

Viral United

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Only really if you didn’t actually watch the football being played.
Isn't that make your first argument about 'we only got 66 points last season' irrelevant?
We could have played better in some games without winning it and in some games got all points without been better time.
Yes performance should improve in times, but in the end we do reach our objective of season.
 

sammsky1

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Isn't that make your first argument about 'we only got 66 points last season' irrelevant?
We could have played better in some games without winning it and in some games got all points without been better time.
Yes performance should improve in times, but in the end we do reach our objective of season.
I also find it ironic that despite so many fans saying before last season started that they thought we’d finish outside top 4, so many now say that top 4 wasn’t good enough!
 

R'hllor

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Yup. And Mourinho has been vindicated since then. Goes to show how little many fans who whined about that result know about what they are talking about.


And please remember to tell the other managers who finished behind the Ole to hang themselves in shame while you're at it.
Like feck that bitter cnut was, fans had bigger issue than some results.
 

Rado_N

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I can’t see an answer, but I’m sure you know the point I’m making here.
Not in the slightest.

Isn't that make your first argument about 'we only got 66 points last season' irrelevant?
We could have played better in some games without winning it and in some games got all points without been better time.
Yes performance should improve in times, but in the end we do reach our objective of season.
Playing poorly whilst losing games invalidates the argument that only getting 66 points is not good enough? Erm, ok.