Its not an arbitrary starting point. Something significant happened to the team. There's no reason why a Liverpool fan wouldn't be interested in seeing the win rate since Virgil signed, or alternatively a City fan looking at it from the point when Kompany departed. They are significant moments in the journey.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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I'm watching Liverpool now, they'll no doubt win the game but look completely average. Team's don't win and look great every game in the PL especially when you lack the quality we do and most definitely did at the start of last season.
What concerns me is especially is the lack of individual progress and development in many of our longstanding players. Which of them have seen their transfer value increase significantly? AWB has stagnated. Shaw hasn't kicked on (accepting injuries). Martial and Rashford definitely haven't. Lingard went backwards spectacularly. Pereira likewise. Gomes, Chong, Tuanzebe and TFM are yet to hit the levels predicted for each of them a couple of years ago.
This should worry us because if we aren't visibly improving our players, potential desirable young transfer targets will see that and factor it into the choice of club. Bellingham springs to mind as one who might have taken this view.
Exactly. There's no excuses. We've got a bloody good team here now. We should be getting a lot more out of it.
Not man for man no. Leipzig without Werner weren't, and a PSG with half of their first xi out injured weren't too.
It's not like Ole is working miracles here. Our team is very good now. Any team in Europe would love to have most of our players.
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You have a worrying tendency to distort every point into a negative. Whether that means you are over invested in this argument or simply a glass half empty type, its not great.
What we have here is a bunch of United fans promoting a positive statistic that highlights how much our team have improved, and then you're on the other side of that argument trying to convince people not to hopeful about it.
Psg had neymar di maria mbappe. The only first teamer they were missing was marquinhos. So don't know what you are about that they were without half of their first team. Leipzig are a solid side who reached semi finals and had no wenrer even in qf. They are not your rennes or olympiacos but are a solid side. There is a reason many ole outers were jizzing at the prospect of Julian Nagelsmann schooling Ole when the draw was out. And now suddenly having beaten them the General perception you are making is they were average side anyways .
We should do better in the league but in CL we have done really well so far.
Jesus! So, if Ole got sacked and we hire Poch for example, would it be fair to expect the title this season itself? If not, then Poch needs to be sacked as well then obviously
After all, we're just 7 points off the top of the table and have a game in hand, so effectively 4 points.
NO!
They are - they are posting stats since Bruno arrived and literally refuse to entertain holding Ole to account prior to this because of a few injuries, even after I provide examples of many games where he had key players available and the performance was still terrible. Some fans are using the word "reset" to suggest ignoring everything that happened before January.
If you look at some of my posts above, I've given a few match examples where the players you named did feature and we were still really bad in performance. Park the result, even though we didn't win in any of them, the concern to me was the press, the work rate, the aggression, attitude, none of it was there. That doesn't come down to "oh we had Lingard + Pereira then" (you didn't say this, someone else did).
Our squad was poor, I wholly agree. I think Ole definitely misspent in the window but that's another matter. My evaluation has not been resting on the technical ability of the players. I've said time and time again that it's the lack of a system, the press, the aggression and also the fact that he doesn't much believe in tactics as much. He refers to needing confidence to win games, and that's reflecting our form. When we good we are prolonged in good form as we are confident. But when we dip we look like it's hitting a brick wall and we really need a while before we get started again. Like this season we are approaching 9 games. In 8 we've played we've lost 3 and drawn 1, whilst being terribly lucky not to be thrashed 4-2 against Brighton. Covid is a mitigating factor in this as other teams are relatively inconsistent. But when you look at Liverpool, Leicester, Spurs, Chelsea you have to wonder how they get kicking on and we don't.
It is arbitrary - Liverpool were still evaluating progress pre VVD. They had every right to trust Klopp as he was improving the way they played, it showed in the way they approached games and created chances. That's why they got what, 76 points before he joined? We had Bruno for half of last season and still mustered 66, when we were capable of better in my opinion. City were still title challengers after Kompany left. No one is out here trying to negate Bruno's impact on the team, or even suggest he's not a Cantona moment for Ole which could turn the tide. That prospect is very much still on, but his arrival does not make us ignore the tripe of the first half of the season. There is no excuse for that, even with our injuries, we often had good opportunities to beat teams with a weaker XI. It's fine it if it happened occasionally but it wasn't occassional - we were mixing it with Sheffield, Burnley and Palace before Bruno's arrival in January.
Actually, I've stated its a brilliant stat on more than one occasion. I have a problem with silly posts suggesting we should ignore what happened before as that marks a "reset". That's not me being pessimistic or negative - that's other posters burying their head in the sand.
Of course, we're still in the mix and that's great. However, it never seems like we are the masters of our own fate. I'd like to see us play our way into contention, and not rely on the inconsistency of teams we're chasing.
And that's why people call you wum
Name the rest of there players like there RB, there Centre midfielders. I don’t know if you actually watch our games but Di Maria didn’t play.
IDGAF. A lot of people can’t deal with the truth.And that's why people call you wum
Name me that PSG team. Then tell me how many of them you want in ‘our’ team. Then do the same for RB.
In fact Atalanta have been doing better than us. Do the same with their team.
Isn't this the problem though? People hype up our players for no reason. Most of these players do well in youth setups but surely everyone should know by now that there's a big leap from youth football to professional football? Most players simply cannot handle the pressure, while others thrive on it. Just look at the England youth squad that won the trophies a few seasons back and look at where they all are right now. Alternatively, look at all the youth players that LvG tried and see where they're at. The vast majority of United youngsters simply don't make it, it's a very, very small percentage.
I'd say Pogba and Lingard are the two players who's form has dipped since Ole joined. Although Lingard has never, ever been a special player and his whole reputation is built on 2 months of form. He simply isn't a United standard player and never has been, I don't like to bash the guy but he's a symbol of our regression in standards. Pogba is a different story, it's sad to see him struggling so hard but he has always been a player we've struggled to build a balanced team around, under Jose and Ole.
I'd say Martial and Rashford have both improved under Ole. They scored more goals for us than they ever managed before, Shaw has improved both in fitness and his footballing level imo, still not where it needs to be but he's improving. AWB struggled for parts but looks like he's returning back to form after a decent start with us. Greenwood obviously has come on leaps and bounds as well as McTominay.
But I do agree, we need to see more improvement in our players. What we really need is one of Rashford or Martial to step up to Brunos standards. As currently they're not at it.
Yes he did play. You are just making a fool out of yourself now
Well put, this is my concern too.
What does it actually matter anymore what happened before that? It didn't ruin our season. We didn't go out of any competitions, and we still finished 3rd. We're getting on for a year since this statistic began now. 37 games is a lot of football.
You say people are burying their heads in the sand, but what it looks like more is that you are holding on to a negative, no longer relative, period of time because for some reason you want to. To most people its water under the bridge. The team has moved on. So should you
I have read loads of lame arguments here but saying Manchester United have a better squad than PSG is really lame. This is why there is a divide in this thread because of stupid posts like that.
They were missing 5 key players: Veratti, Kehrer, Bernat, Marquinhos, Paredes. With decent subs Draxler, Icardi, Pereira missing too. So 8 players overall. Decent amount no?
You're in a thread that's evaluating Ole as a manager, and you're asking what does the first 6 months of last season matter? Listen to yourself.
And I'm not holding on to anything - I'm counting that as much as I'm counting the post Bruno form. I'm just laughing at the hypocrisy of some posters - like we beat Leicester to get top 4 and ironically they had 3 out of their 4 defenders out, no Ndidi and no Maddison. They had more key players missing then than we ever did throughout the season, but no one will actually point to it to provide context. Of course when we miss Rashford or Pogba then the caf will go wild and claim it doesn't count though.
So you want us to be Liverpool last season? Get in front quickly and then just win relentlessly. We'd all like that, but its not a realistic expectation is it?
You're working in extremes here - he never said that or even suggested it. Even if you take Lampard with Chelsea, they always looked in control of their own destiny and it showed as they were consistently in the top 4 and were always looking like they would stay there.
You'll find plenty of posts from me in the first half of last season saying how important it was that Leicester had all their players fit while we didn't. When the tables turned so did results, in no surprise to me.
And that's one - but Leicester's evaluation is over the course of the season. It's not ignored when they have injuries.
With us there were many games where we had key players available and still underperformed. That doesn't get ignored when evaluating progress, is all I'm saying.
Alright, a few points to cover.
1. People are using the data in 2020 to show others that we aren't inconsistent. That's the main argument here, you can't be considered an inconsistent team if you're near the top of result related stats in the league. If you're talking about consistency and basing this off a few results then clearly people don't understand how consistency works.
2. Performances in 1st half of 19/20 season, i've included a table below showing our starting players (minus defense to reduce the table size). Martial started 3 of these fixtures, James started all of them, Pereira started 6, Pogba starting 4. You look at those lineups and ask yourself "whos going to score the goals for us". It's all on Martial and Rashford in these lineups as none of the others contribute on a consistent basis. Now with Martial out of the picture inb 5 of these fixtures it's all on Rashford. We didn't and still don't have enough goals in our squad and the lineups below highlight the real issues, too many players not good enough playing in the same team. These aren't players coming off the bench either, they're United starters!
| Opponent | Result | ||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Wolves (A) | 1-1 | Martial | Rashford | James | Lingard | McTom | Pogba |
Palace (H) | 1-2 | Martial | Rashford | James | Lingard | McTom | Pogba |
Southampton (A) | 1-1 | Rashford | James | Mata | Pereira | McTom | Pogba |
West Ham (A) | 2-0 | Rashford | James | Mata | Pereira | McTom | Matic |
Arsenal (H) | 1-1 | Rashford | James | Lingard | Pereira | McTom | Pogba |
Newcastle (A) | 1-0 | Rashford | James | Mata | McTom | Fred | Pereira |
Liverpool (H) | 1-1 | Rashford | James | Pereira | McTom | Fred | Young |
Bournemouth (A) | 1-0 | Martial | Rashford | James | Pereira | McTom | Fred |
In any case, you're one of the best posters to discuss Ole with even if I don't agree with you as of now.
Chelsea had to beat a good team on the last day to guarantee top 4. Same as United.
Who mentioned me expecting a title? You're creating that. What I'm after, after 2 years & hundreds of millions, is continued progress on the pitch, so that we actually look like we're going somewhere in the near future. I can handle poor results if we're unlucky, and there's clear signs on the pitch that we're progressing, but I don't see it currently. Can you tell me what Ole's plan is for us at home? Can you explain why we start matches like we've overdosed on valium? We're getting by on the skin of our teeth through Bruno's brilliance almost every match it seems. That's not sustainable. As shown in our inconsistency. 2 years is some managers whole tenure, so how much longer are we supposed to wait for it to fall magically into place?
I'm saying its not relevant anymore, and it isn't. We've moved on considerably as a team and as a squad since then, and when you see that happen its generally a strong indicator that they are being managed well.
Not for you though.
We have regressed as a team. Only club who can feel worse than us is City. We are 11th place with minus 1 Goal Difference. Of the teams above us none bar Liverpool or Chelsea have a better squad than us. And with Liverpool Van Dijk is out for a long time.
I am not saying Poch is going to win the PL. Personally I don't want him at United. I don't think he is going to win.
But why does anyone think Ole is going to win? What has he done to think so?
I am not saying Poch is going to win the PL. Personally I don't want him at United. I don't think he is going to win.
But why does anyone think Ole is going to win? What has he done to think so?
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You're the one saying that PSG & Leipzig had a better team than us when we beat them, which isn't true. PSG were missing 5 key players, 8 overall when we beat them. And Leipzig without Werner aren't anything special. Look at that Leipzig team and let me know how many of them you want starting for us.
When a top team loses against teams they should easily beat you don't make the excuse that it's all well and good because all teams lose to teams they should be beating. If this is what the players are being told then you're opening doors for more underwhelming results.
I'm not saying it's abnormal for teams to lose to opponents they should be beating but using it as an excuse for fans not to criticise or complain about such results is lowering standards
There are not many out there but Klopp Pochettino Hassenhutl have all done what I'm saying in their respective clubs. Klopp obviously being the best candidate since he's the one with the big trophies
Did I say that? So we can either be an inconsistent team, or be incredibly consistent team and run away with the league. Is there no in between?
We should be a team this season that is looking on course to get 70-80 points, building off the back end of last season and consolidating ourselves as a nailed on top 3 team, with a view to pushing for that top spot. That's what I said in my post. Did you just not read it before replying, or just preffered to twist my words to support whatever viewpoint you have or something?
The 'standard' that top teams should be 'easily' beating other PL teams is unrealistic. Teams that finish around 4th generally win around 20 games a season.
By your logic only, we should be finishing above Pool as they don't have a defence, we should be finishing above City as they don't have Aguero. Ok, maybe not the title, but we should atleast be finishing above these two sides. Because beating PSG is not really an achievement as per you.
And here's the thing, before Bruno's signing, what we lacked was a leader. In terms of underlying numbers we were still in top 4 and comfortably so. With Bruno's arrival, what we got was not just creativity but more importantly a proper leader in the team.
And to your two points, the defeats at OT came to CP and Spurs, when we hadn't had any pre season, and to an Arsenal side, a side that is pretty decent against bigger sides. Even that defeat came because of a brainfart rather than us having been tactically outsmarted or anything. As far as our start to games is concerned, we have had decent starts to most games except a couple of them, but then again on the flip side, we've had a good start to a lot more games as well.
And to your consistency point, do you have any data to back up the consistency piece?
If you're going to tell me losses to Istanbul and Arsenal are an example, then that wouldn't be a good argument as you're citing examples of 2 games in a run of 37 games where we've been terrific. It's a bit like saying Klopp deserves to be sacked as there isn't any consisstency - In their last 12 games they've won just 6 games and lost 3, and they're arguably the best team in the world. Where's the consistency there?
So because of what you said, if we lose to Southampton and West Ham in our next games nobody should complain?
Pochettino
Pochettino had better team than Chelsea’s Conte & Leicester in my opinion and he failed to win the title, and also he had the board to hold him off. He’s pretty much what you think of Ole but with more PL experienced and worse stats against the top 6. You can actually use your own phrase on Pochettino case at spurs ‘’If Poch got his player Spurs would be winning’’
Hassenhutl still has point to prove. His win % managerial career isn’t looking good but he has potential indeed.
With half of Liverpool team injured and City having no striker, it is the perfect time to win the league. Any worthy manager would be mounting a title challenge with our squad given the circumstances. Ole has the perfect chance now to show what he is capable of.
Maybe you don't understand what I'm talking about. Put it this way, if you gave Ole the resources and players Pochettino was provided with at Tottenham the time he was there do you think he'd have take them as far as Pochettino did? I don't.Pochettino
Pochettino had better team than Chelsea’s Conte & Leicester in my opinion and he failed to win the title, and also he had the board to hold him off. He’s pretty much what you think of Ole but with more PL experienced and worse stats against the top 6. You can actually use your own phrase on Pochettino case at spurs ‘’If Poch got his player Spurs would be winning’’
Hassenhutl still has point to prove. His win % managerial career isn’t looking good but he has potential indeed.
I see your point, but my argument is more that we aren't the only team that faced issues with injuries or stability that was not the manager's fault. For example Lampard had a transfer ban and he had equally bad injuries to key players - his Hazard replacement was injured and Kante was injured for chunks, meaning they could only start in 20ish games. By comparison Rashford and Martial started in 30+ premier league games. Leicester had big injuries in the second half too. But both Lampard and Rodgers were in their first season with the club whereas Ole had 6 months to settle and a big transfer window where he spent a lot of money.
Then you consider Arteta and Mourinho who joined midway through the season. Whilst Ole had injuries that were hampering his team, the rivals around him (outside of City/Liverpool) were also facing volatility, some more than he was. In your table you have a few games where it's fair enough to miss a win, e.g. Arsenal or Liverpool, even Wolves. But Palace, Southampton, Newcastle, West Ham and Bournemouth are teams we still had a squad capable of a better performance than what we showed. As @Bilbo explained it's not relevant if we move on to progress materially since, but my barometer of this progress is bettering our consistency in the 19/20 campaign and getting a cup. Otherwise I think we are neither here nor there after 3 years + £250m spent which would be sackable for any top club manager.
I appreciate that, I'm not trying to discredit Ole's work in 2020 but my concern is the inconsistency which could be explained away last season will not hold for this season in a standalone manner. That is to say, whilst granting teams start slow with covid, now there is an onus to crack on with his December fixtures. He hasn't got any big injuries right now and he has a run of games where performances should be there (parking results here). So if we lost to West Ham but played them off the park, I'm not downbeat about it for example.
Sure, and if you consider @Orc or other Chelsea fans, I'd imagine they were evaluating how Lampard was doing in his debut year and will continue to evaluate his progress now as he builds on that. Not to mention they were transfer banned last season + Ole was in the role for 6 months prior to Lampard's Chelsea appointment.
However, I believe for Liverpool/City it's not relevant anymore because Liverpool went on to win a title and Champions League after VVD joined and City at least remained title challengers. If we won even the FA Cup and stayed in top 4 this season, I will agree it's not relevant (because the top 4 race this year looks harder). But if we end the season as inconsistent as we were last season then of course it's all relevant because it points to very little progress made.
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