Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

It actually is. Go educate yourself!

I disagree.

I doubt any/many people would take offence to being described as the tall guy, the ginger guy, the guy with the beard, the guy in the wheelchair etc.

I'm sure a lot of people would take offence to being described as the fat guy, the smelly guy, the ugly guy etc, as they are all seen as societally 'bad' things to be.

I have never once felt ashamed to be black, or like my skin colour should be seen as a negative - so I have absolutely no issue in being described as the black guy in this context. I actually find it sort of comical, but I understand why it happens, when I hear people - almost always white people, if I'm being honest - tie themselves in knots to describe the only other person of a different race "Uhhh...you know...the guy...he uhhh...he was pretty tall...I think he was uhhh wearing a red t-shirt"

I've used similar terms when they're the best descriptor. "You know that white guy you were with..." Things like that.

I'm not offended by people lumping 'black' into a supposedly negative descriptor, and don't think the people that do necessarily have bad intentions....but it certainly gives me more pause for thought than simply being referred to with the most obvious descriptor.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Are you serious right now? If you have an opinion can I claim that all white people should agree with you? Its possible different people in the same race feel differently about this.

Are you saying black people don't want to be called black people? You are now telling me, being black is something to be ashamed of?

 

[groovyalbert]

Out of interest, what had he done to get sent off/identified by the 4th official with less than 15 minutes of goalless game gone?

 

[Saffron]

A team sheet wont have the picture of the person beside their name FFS.

You see a middle aged guy and know it’s not the head coach. Can only be the assistant coach and his name is on the sheet.

 

[SilentWitness]

Doesn't sound like you're confident about answering my question, though.

In terms of your example of PL officials, christ, they officiate the league almost every weekend, but even then expecting them to know the names and faces of the majority of the staff is mental. Managers, obviously, but even assistant managers will be less known depending on the club they're at.

Referees in competitions in foreign leagues aren't sitting down to memorize the names and faces of the various members that make out the staff.

Why are we suddenly going to pretend that referees should damn well know how everyone in a foreign staff looks and what their names are. Bizarre.

I just did answer your question. As @JPRouve replied also, it should be on the team sheets that the officials will be provided with. At a professional level it shouldn’t be too difficult for officials to know players they are going to be officiating or staff so they are able to correctly identify individuals if they need to be dealt with. I don’t know why people think that’s such a crazy concept. It’s such a minimal part of their job.

 

[calodo2003]

Man, your basically saying calling black person black is wrong.

In this setting, it absolutely is. There’s no way around this.

You apparently have never managed in a multicultural subordinate setting. That’s neither here nor there from ‘being racist’ perspective, I’m not trying to belittle you or anything, but many settings you cannot be so cavalier with language that could offend like this language apparently was. The crux may ultimately be that he was referring to the color of a kit, but he simply cannot overtly be referring to skin color when describing a player.

 

[slyadams]

Are you saying black people don't want to be called black people?

I'm saying just because you have a black person with you who agrees with you doesn't mean that person speaks for all black people, its bizarre to think so.

Consider this: a black person lives and works in a country where racism is more rife. Its possible/likely they get more racism in the street, from the stands, possibly from other players. Then in a match the only way an official can see to refer to them is by the colour of their skin, wouldn't that annoy you?

Again, I'm pretty amazed the number of people in this thread who cannot understand the concept of a protected class, and why they exist.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

You see a middle aged guy and know it’s not the head coach. Can only be the assistant coach and his name is on the sheet.

I'm either drunk or don't understand this comment.

 

[JPRouve]

A team sheet wont have the picture of the person beside their name FFS.

He asked how they could have the names of everyone on the staff and I answered that question.

 

[calodo2003]

Referees are obviously less likely to know the names of the staff members in european competitions than in domestic competitions. Even if it's a higher level of football.

And officials shouldn’t actively use first names unless they can do so with everyone. That again brings in subjectivity to the officials’ performances. But this is simply a non sequitur, not being able to use every first name doesn’t mean the next descriptor to be used is skin color. There’s a couple of possibilities between these two poles.

 

[UncleBob]

I just did answer your question. As @JPRouve replied also, it should be on the team sheets that the officials will be provided with. At a professional level it shouldn’t be too difficult for officials to know players they are going to be officiating or staff so they are able to correctly identify individuals if they need to be dealt with. I don’t know why people think that’s such a crazy concept. It’s such a minimal part of their job.

You didn't, you attempted to circumvent it by making up your own story about a different scenario, and even then it's still just your opinion.

How does having a list, with no pictures, help them. "Look, i'm going to find my list and call out every name to see who you are"

 

[Synco]

This is close to the pinnacle of the profession, they undoubtedly receive training on their interactions with players & staff, if only as an insurance hedge by their national / international associations & very boilerplate.

As a professional at that level, you just can’t speak in such an obtuse way. The fact that some on here are saying it’s acceptable is baffling.

Absolutely. Such protocols are protocols for a reason.

 

[Peyroteo]

I just did answer your question. As @JPRouve replied also, it should be on the team sheets that the officials will be provided with. At a professional level it shouldn’t be too difficult for officials to know players they are going to be officiating or staff so they are able to correctly identify individuals if they need to be dealt with. I don’t know why people think that’s such a crazy concept. It’s such a minimal part of their job.

It could easily be done. But it's not.

Maybe they should start doing it from now on but as of now no ref goes into international competitions knowing the names of every single person sitting on the bench

 

[Doracle]

At this point I don't think it's about "what could he have said to refer to or identify Webo"? I've been guilty of that myself.

There's always a way to identify or refer to somebody. But I can imagine sometimes it's simply quicker or more convenient to use skin color. And as long as the intent is innocent, I personally don't really see a problem with that.

That being said, will we hear an official explanation tomorrow?

Quite so. If you happen to be in China and there’s a group with one Caucasian guy and you have to identify them for some reason, then most people are going to identify them by race. You aren’t demeaning them or being racist by doing so - just as if there was one woman there identifying them
as the woman wouldn’t be sexist either.

 

[UncleBob]

He asked how they could have the names of everyone on the staff and I answered that question.

No, how they will know them. Obviously they'll have all the information about attending staff, but the debate is if it's suddenly a requirement for the referees to know them by looks and name.

 

[SilentWitness]

You didn't, you attempted to circumvent it by making up your own story about a different scenario, and even then it's still just your opinion.

How does having a list, with no pictures, help them. "Look, i'm going to find my list and call out every name to see who you are"

By researching the name of that person so they can associate the name with the face. Not difficult.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Yeah emotions got over me after watching the vid and our first half.

By being a well prepared official that does their research prior to a game?

a bit off topic here but shouldn’t a ref go in to the game with a blank slate to ref and not have any pre conceived ideas or biases of players or even staff

 

[calodo2003]

Wow. After all the genuinely vile and malicious racism we’ve seen in the stands at many football matches - without any meaningful consequences - it’s kind of mad that the first time we actually have a big match abandoned seems to be mainly down to a combination of naivety and something being lost in translation.

More so unacceptable ignorance than naivety. There’s not too much innocence involved here.

 

[UweBein]

Of course you do. Simply because black people in Europe is not normative. (not yet)

Of course, it is. It‘s not too late to learn and understand it

 

[UncleBob]

By researching the name of that person so they can associate the name with the face. Not difficult.

Christ.

You're seriously suggesting that all the referees should research the name and appearance of everyone in the staff that attends the match on the bench, and you're trying to use it as extra weight as to make the remark worse.

that's beyond pathetic

 

[MalcolmTucker]

By researching the name of that person so they can associate the name with the face. Not difficult.

This point is just completely mental and utterly irrelevant.

 

[Gibb11]

By being a well prepared official that does their research prior to a game?

Absolute madness of a comment, so he's meant to know the names of all the physios and kit men, coaching staff and players... for both teams

Just imagining the ref and his officials on the plane to Paris from Romania going over the homework and playing guess who with about 100 different people from the two sets of teams.

 

[Josep Dowling]

I would feel confident in saying that most PL officials will know the names and faces of the majority of players/staff that they officiate.

Because the chances are they deal with that group of people 3/4 times a year. How often will a Romanian official be involved with the same French team in the Champions League?

Calling a black person black as a adjective is surely not racist. Racism is defined as being derogatory towards a persons race or skin colour. Is trying to describe someone racist, especially when the majority around him would be Turkish, all wearing exactly the same clothes? People genuinely don’t have a clue what real racism is anymore. Everyone is offended for someone.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

In this setting, it absolutely is. There’s no way around this.

You apparently have never managed in a multicultural subordinate setting. That’s neither here nor there from ‘being racist’ perspective, I’m not trying to belittle you or anything, but many settings you cannot be so cavalier with language that could offend like this language apparently was. The crux may ultimately be that he was referring to the color of a kit, but he simply cannot overtly be referring to skin color when describing a player.

I'm saying just because you have a black person with you who agrees with you doesn't mean that person speaks for all black people, its bizarre to think so.

Consider this: a black person lives and works in a country where racism is more rife. Its possible/likely they get more racism in the street, from the stands, possibly from other players. Then in a match the only way an official can see to refer to them is by the colour of their skin, wouldn't that annoy you?

Again, I'm pretty amazed the number of people in this thread who cannot understand the concept of a protected class, and why they exist.

If you are referring to someone in a descriptive way, the colour of there skin is important. It does not in any way mean the colour of there skin means there are in ANYWAY wrong or more susceptible to the allegations against them. Of course if i had a small team I was familiar with I would use names, I just feel this is all been blown up out of all proportions. But I guess you feel making a point is more important. If ponly people could have a bit of understanding this life may be easier, rather than finger pointing and keyboard jockeying.

 

[JPRouve]

It could easily be done. But it's not.

Maybe they should start doing it from now on but as of now no ref goes into international competitions knowing the names of every single person sitting on the bench

I wouldn't be able to tell you if it's systematic but in theory the referee is supposed to check the identity of everyone that will be on the field and on benches. Everyone is supposed to be registered with a photo.

 

[Zehner]

Insults affect recipients, not deliverers. You can’t use such a descriptor in a professional setting like this when managing a group.

I get your point but although it might be unprofessional or even rude, it's still not necessarily racist. If a supervisor would refer to his employee as "the small guy" or "the blonde girl" in a meeting, it's unprofessional but it's not discriminating as long as he doesn't do it specifically for one group. And the outrage came to be because it was understood as racist.

Really a difficult topic since sometimes pointing out the most striking physical feature can trigger something in the described person. A blonde woman could think of the stereotypes she had to deal with, a small or big guy of teasing/mobbing, etc.

Also, you have to consider if the referee actually knew the Istanbul coach could hear him. If he assumed he was talking solely to the other referees, this might also change the situation.

 

[calodo2003]

Absolutely. Such protocols are protocols for a reason.

It’s not absurd to hold officials to such a standard. It’s three hours-ish out of one’s day. It’s not difficult to comport to a style of professionalism that doesn’t use racial descriptors when singling out someone.

 

[Elefenrir]

It was a clear lack of profissionalism and ignorance from the referee.

Racism? Definitely not, but you can't be saying those stuff in a profssional environment

 

[Peyroteo]

By researching the name of that person so they can associate the name with the face. Not difficult.

In order to communicate during the game using only their names, all four refs would need to perfectly memorize the names and faces of a bunch of different people for every single game they refereed. It could be done but I don't think it would easy or practical at all actually.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

He asked how they could have the names of everyone on the staff and I answered that question.

In a totally different universe. We have went to shit in this society and totally forgot what oppression means and diluted rights, its a fecking sad world we live, where people look for kudos over what really matters.

 

[SilentWitness]

Christ.

You're seriously suggesting that all the referees should research the name and appearance of everyone in the staff that attends the match on the bench, and you're trying to use it as extra weight as to make the remark worse.

that's beyond pathetic

This point is just completely mental and utterly irrelevant.

Absolute madness of a comment, so he's meant to know the names of all the physios and kit men, coaching staff and players... for both teams

I don’t mind being called mad but yes, I believe that referees should have a general idea of the players and immediate staff they will be officiating prior to a kick-off so they are able to identify players and staff members that they will need to discipline and manage during a game.

 

[0le]

Storm in a tea cup.

 

[calodo2003]

a bit off topic here but shouldn’t a ref go in to the game with a blank slate to ref and not have any pre conceived ideas or biases of players or even staff

Absolutely. Should be striving for objectivity & a bit of obscurity. I think that a learned understanding of how certain players play is fine, but decisions shouldn’t be preconceived in any way.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

Surely it's just basic social skills/common sense that at the very least it is rude and inappropriate to refer to someone they don't know by their race in a public and professional setting?

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Storm in a tea cup.

No No No, Malcom X made speeches over this stuff. Its depressing what it has come to.

 

[Saffron]

By researching the name of that person so they can associate the name with the face. Not difficult.

Not to mention Webo has 227 La Liga appearances and played in two World Cups.

 

[UncleBob]

I don’t mind being called mad but yes, I believe that referees should have a general idea of the players and immediate staff they will be officiating prior to a kick-off so they are able to identify players and staff members that they will need to discipline and manage during a game.

You've just said they should sit down and research them so they know all the staff by name and looks, and now it's a general idea of players and immediate staff

It's perfectly fine that you believe that this should be the standard, but it's not, so using it to add weight to a claim of racism is pretty fecking unfair.

 

[VorZakone]

Not to mention Webo has 227 La Liga appearances and played in two World Cups.

So? You remember every player from the 2010 World Cup? Or 2014?

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Surely it's just basic social skills/common sense that at the very least it is rude and inappropriate to refer to someone they don't know by their race in a public and professional setting?

I think its sad as feck that we cant to be honest.

 

[JPRouve]

No, how they will know them. Obviously they'll have all the information about attending staff, but the debate is if it's suddenly a requirement for the referees to know them by looks and name.

If I use France as an example referees are supposed to check players/staffs registrations before the game, that includes their names and their pictures.