Do people think we’re just going to turn up to games like West Ham away and Southampton away and steamroller them?
These are teams packed full of international footballers
These are teams packed full of international footballers
How could you possibly be content with this?
- Thread starter Di Maria's angel
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Steamroll, no. But neither club are so powerful that we should be quaking in our boots at the prospect of facing them, happy to take a draw. These are clubs we should expect to defeat, fully aware that it will require strong performance to do so. But if we send in a turd of a performance, both have every right to believe they can take all three points from us. We’re not at the level of Liverpool or City where we can be off our game and still steamroll such clubs.
1. Well from January until the end of the season they had 3 losses and 2 draws in 19 matches, so its not like they were shite despite having the league wrapped
2. Where does this "no style" argument come from? Just because we dont play tikitaka does not mean we lack a style of play. When we could not score in a brothel September - December 2019 everyone of Oles critics was lamenting how shite the coaching was. Now we score a lot more and suddenly we dont hear anything about coaching and its suddenly "individual brilliance". Like he cant win no matter what. Besides, there is not a single team on this planet that is not incredibly reliant on a couple of key players. Spurs dont score without Son/Kane, Liverpool struggle without Salah/Mane, Barca struggle without Messi and so on. You also have to consider that Martial and Pogba, who are among our most talented players have largely been a complete non entity this season so its not like we have the whole squad playing at peak potential
3. We rely on our attackers to score? Who doesn't? The fact that we continually manage to come back from a losing position proves that the players have belief and fighting spirit, which not exactly something we've had in abundance since Fergie retired.
4. Do you remember how deep down we were around December 2018 right before Jose was sacked? Terrible results, terrible football, daily articles in the press about dressing room bust ups and what not. Pretty much everyone walked around looking like they had just ran over their dog. If we went from that to you expecting a league challenge in two years then Ole must have done something right, because by that point we looked more like relegation candidates than league champions.
Lastly. Jose and LvG made their own beds with their terrible transfer records. Everyone on here is constantly bickering about tactics/coaching, but i'd argue squad building and squad management are much more important and so far Ole is surpassing both of them there. Fergie was not some great tactician, his big secret was his uncanny ability to assemble and build great teams. Its a reason why big companies wanted to invite him to talk after his book release, and it was not about training ground drills and offside traps
Wait, what? Southampton have flattered to deceive? This would be the club with one of the best away records last season and the one cited as being "on the up" ever since their horror loss to Leicester? The one that troubled every team in the back half of last season and started this year well too? The one we struggled to draw with last season? From season to season, the mid-table and lower-half see massive shuffles and every season there's some team that just "clicks". Last season, SHU was the unheralded success and troubled loads of teams and caused loads of noses to be bloodied. This season, they're dire. Last season, WHU were dire to the end, when they suddenly put together a great run, which they've continued this season so far. They've caused a lot of trouble to a lot of teams. You can't just write them off randomly.
Take WHU - drew to City and Spuds, barely lost to Liverpool and beat Leicester, Wolves and an ascendant Villa. Yet, just because we didn't absolutely steamroll them (away and with fans this time), people are upset and moaning about the team, the performance and the manager? Where is the perspective on this? Have you even seen our recent record away to WHU? We barely ever win there!
Yes, we didn't pin West Ham down from start to finish and we scored only 3 goals away when we should have beaten them 20 - nil. We are pathetic. Teams like West Ham under Moyes especially can't possibly put up any fight against us. Every team, including PSG, should all be fodder for us every time we play against them. They aren't allowed to ever improve. We should buy every talent there is from the other teams and hire every top manager there is to make sure that our trophy cabinet is overflowing with trophies season in and season out.
We should be like Bayern Munich and not be challenged. Ole out! Jesus in!
We should be like Bayern Munich and not be challenged. Ole out! Jesus in!
The problem with a lot of fans is that they take things way too personal and even if it means, for a single day, they will never wanna look at the other side of the things they denounce. It's ok and fine to enjoy a Utd win even if it means a player you hate (Pogba here) played well in it or if the manager you wanna see out, played a big role into changing the game. It's as if supporting the club and its greater good isn't the priority anymore but personal agendas and settling scores online is what it's all about.
Enjoying wins vs West Ham and Southampton doesn't win we are blind the global issues of the club, it doesn't mean we're deluded, it doesn't mean we forget things but we're fans, if we cannot find it in ourselves to enjoy good/great results, it's time to stop watching football
Enjoying wins vs West Ham and Southampton doesn't win we are blind the global issues of the club, it doesn't mean we're deluded, it doesn't mean we forget things but we're fans, if we cannot find it in ourselves to enjoy good/great results, it's time to stop watching football
Having scanned this thread, it’s no surprise to see the caf struggling with looking past the result, but for most of the game we performed in what is now an oh so familiar fashion, and it’s not good enough.
That we managed to turn it on for a brief period eventually is great for that particular game, but we need to question why we’re so poor for large periods so often. It’s the reason why we don’t challenge, so it’s a pretty valid point raised.
That we managed to turn it on for a brief period eventually is great for that particular game, but we need to question why we’re so poor for large periods so often. It’s the reason why we don’t challenge, so it’s a pretty valid point raised.
I think people are too invested emotionally into the Ole project to intentionally overlook the underlying issues. This team, when allowed to, can look like world beaters but it has several chinks in its armour that makes it vulnerable to a team specifically targetting them and one that is good enough to run away with a match e.g Spurs.
To win or even contest for major trophies you have to face teams like Liverpool, City, Chelsea and Spurs. You can't afford to give them a headstart like we did against Southampton and West Ham who are good teams in their own right.
I created the Tinkerman Ole thread for just this reason. My theory being that the reason for our inconsistency in performance is that the team gets changed too much and it takes time for them to gel. Everyone disagrees with me so maybe Im wacko but it doesnt make sense to me how we can be so bad one minute and world class the next.
Sounds like you're only watching Man United play. Our team is not really out of place in regards to style of play, all the other teams are struggling to play one way or another.
Not sure if you watch other teams play. No team that I know dominates every minute of every game and wins by plenty, while keeping clean sheets in every game. Take the current table toppers - Spuds. Struggled against WBA and needed a late mistake by their keeper to squeak a barely-deserved 1-0. Against Arsenal last night, they simply sat back and relied on Arsenal not scoring - while scoring two ultra-low-percentage chances on the break. Liverpool last season had several games where they were "barely in second gear" before turning it on for a brief 5-10 minute period that saw them score and take the points. It's not "rocket science" that the teams with better players (individuals) will see some individual brilliance sealing the points. That's why the best teams (invariably) buy the best players. Every player at the top level is capable of "moments of brilliance". The best ones are those that produce them most often and the manager's job is to create the platform for these players to do so.
I am not blind to the issues of the team - but equally, I'm not blind to the world around us. We are not in possession of the best squad. We did have the most compromised pre-season in the league and consequently, a horrific start. We've also struggled massively at home; far more than we should have. But the last few weeks have been good and the trajectory is upwards. Also, stretch back to almost a year and we're actually one of the best-performing teams in the country - despite (arguably at the very least) not having the second best squad.
The issue is that most people watch only highlights and YT compilations of other teams while watching full games for their own. So they're not familiar with the fact that Liverpool don't actually dominate every minute of every game - that they also look cack for long spells; that City don't play beautiful tiki-taka all the time. Can we be better? Of course! But to say we're not progressing and that our manager is a clown and that we're basically just "lucky" shows a complete lack of perspective.
More than anything though, for a Man United fan to not revel in the joy of being turd, going behind and then roaring back to win just belies belief. Do people think Fergie's United went in 0-3 down at HT to Spuds while playing scintillating football? And did they score 5 second-half goals purely because they played a lovely game of team-work devoid of individual brilliance?
Because I think we are reliant on individual quality much more than a system. We already have inconsistent players and when these players are off form there really isn't a system to turn to that can guide them through. That's the benefit of having a consistent style of play as it can help guide the players even when they are bad. That's why the likes of Hassenhut who has a defined style of play that can get their team to play more than what their ability suggests.
I'd say a major reason we are called inconsistent is because we don't have a defined style of play
What we thinking? Not an issue?
If you're a completely unambitious fan as our club, then you could well be content with this of course.
We may still win such is the talent in this squad. But starting games like this will bite us in the arse more often than not.
It’s shocking how we have no consistent formation, system, or tactics. Seemingly picking and choosing a new approach week to week would suggest our inconsistencies both at a team and individual level.
Little bit surprised this is empty given all the shit some posters were quick to give me a few days ago. Must be content with yet another dreadful performance where our opposition actually battered us AND didn't choke like West Ham or Brighton did. I worry for this team when our luck completely runs out. Sad to see us fall so low. But hey, I should go support someone else.
Totally agree mate. You didn't deserve all of that criticism. You were spot on.
Fans who only look at the results and not the performances must not think performances are an indicator of future success, which I find bizarre.
This team at it's worst looks like a Sunday league side. West Ham, Arsenal, Istanbul, Brighton, Palace, West Brom. The idea that you could watch the performances in those games and be confident you're going to go get the result you need against PSG and Leipzig is baffling to me. If you regularly can't defend, regularly bottle big chances, regularly fail to break down packed defences, regularly struggle when pressed, regularly can't pass the ball to a team mate - then you're going to get punished in an awful lot of games, even if you get away with it in some matches.
We should have been 4-0 down inside 30 minutes today and I wasn't even shocked, because it's not even out of character for this team to play that poorly. We could have been 4-0 down to West Ham in the prior game, performances like that are a clear sign you can't trust the team to win consistently and win when we need to.
This team at it's worst looks like a Sunday league side. West Ham, Arsenal, Istanbul, Brighton, Palace, West Brom. The idea that you could watch the performances in those games and be confident you're going to go get the result you need against PSG and Leipzig is baffling to me. If you regularly can't defend, regularly bottle big chances, regularly fail to break down packed defences, regularly struggle when pressed, regularly can't pass the ball to a team mate - then you're going to get punished in an awful lot of games, even if you get away with it in some matches.
We should have been 4-0 down inside 30 minutes today and I wasn't even shocked, because it's not even out of character for this team to play that poorly. We could have been 4-0 down to West Ham in the prior game, performances like that are a clear sign you can't trust the team to win consistently and win when we need to.
Didn't see this on Saturday but the OP is spot on. We are going nowhere as a club under Ole
Worst thing is, we have a squad that can really kick on and win things and I don't mean Europa League's or League Cups.
Put a proper manager who can coach players and this club can achieve anything over the next few years
Worst thing is, we have a squad that can really kick on and win things and I don't mean Europa League's or League Cups.
Put a proper manager who can coach players and this club can achieve anything over the next few years
For all that bad defending and conceding goals, at the other end we can be fairly lethal too and you can point to all the turn arounds and lots of goals in short time as an indicator of something working.
we could or should have been 1-1 before 4-0 down today too, it’s how you want to se things
It's just an indicator that we have good, talented players who could achieve so much more with proper guidance and coaching. Exactly the point this thread is making. People find it hard to see how we are usually terrible for 70mins of a game and our wins normally come from lucky penalties or our talented attackers pulling some worldies out of the bag. Pogba's insane volley, our last minute penalties or crazy comebacks are not down to Ole and the coaching staff. That is just our players fighting and trying to scrape something with their talent (and sometimes succeeding).
Of course some of that fight back and scoring goals has something to do with Ole, how many times over the past 7 years or so would you be confident of us coming back from a goal down, we didn’t or couldn’t do it, is it just coincidence now the players have a different mentality?
As for the attack part of Oles tactics allow Bruno that role and playmaking freedom, a different manager could shackle Bruno more and change the attack for the worse. I’m not saying Ole is chief tactician here and recognise coaches such as nagglesmann seem to play a great style of football when I’ve seen them, I’ve also see them shit the bed and lose 5-0 and almost shit the bed and throw away a 3-0 home lead in the last 15 mins against a shit coaches team so there’s more to it than simply tactics. Ole has done a pretty amazing job here all things considered I’d say and a lesser manager with little experience could have a real hard meltdown here
Chickens have come home to roost. It was always going to catch up with us and fittingly it happened in our biggest game of the season.
Still wouldn't keep him but know Coco, Krusty and the others will just carry on regardless
We have made a comeback from 2-0 down several times before Ole was hired in the post Fergie era. Hell even during Mourinho meltdown period, the squad pulled out a 3-2 comeback win against Newcastle after 2-0 down, then next game another comeback against Chelsea at the bridge after 0-1 to 2-1 before the equalizer in dying moment. Later on a 2-1 comeback win against fecking Juve in Torino. All these during Mourinho's meltdown.
I don't need to mention the previous season to that in which we saw a 3-2 comeback win against Man fecking City who were bossing the league after 2-0 down at Etihad, a 3-2 comeback win against Palace after 2-0 down away from home, a 2-1 comeback win in Fa Cup semi final against Tottenham on their pitch at this time, Wembley.
Mentality has never been our problem. To say that Ole has brought this kind of different mentality back to us is complete rewriting of history.
You should know Ole can get away with much more than previous managers in some fans eyes
Give over
Should only have been a caretaker to pick up morale and that's where it ends
Ok I stand corrected, that we turned a few games around under mourhino. I’d still say it wasn’t at the point that we do it these days. Maybe I’m confusing mourhino years with lvg because there was definitely a time when we went behind that was it
Except, he hasn't.
Very true but some people will believe in him regardless
Amazing jobYup.
For a large section of fan, there is generally no focus on the actual quality of peformances and the tactical (attacking, progress) approach of the team, especially if we happen to get a a win.
I find it interesting that a club as large as Manchester United holds its manager to the gold standard of being average - hence the whole 4th being an achievement and us hovering around CL spots being acceptable - as opposed to expecting excellence. You'd think that we want a front foot attacking manager who puts other teams on the back foot and looks to dominate. But no, were obsessed with getting just enough results to get CL footy, even if it involves disjoint and jammy football. The whole emphasis needs to change from "not bad" to "are we great?" from a collective perspective. Isn't that why Manchester United managers are so highly paid?
It is like the Trump fans who see him do no wrong. He can do no wrong and whatever he does is acceptable to them. The same with the Ole fans. `he can do no wrong. `if we win, it his his genius plan. If we lose then it is the players. In reality it is the players brilliance that gets us out and it is their mistakes that causes the problems too.
If we are coached properly we do not have to do any of these things as it would be part of a team that can defend as a team and attack as a team.
If we are coached properly we do not have to do any of these things as it would be part of a team that can defend as a team and attack as a team.
Laugh it up, you seem to forget how dire and how down everyone felt under moyes, lvg or mourhino time here?
Atleast now we attack teams and have got a team that is actually likeable. Finished third in the league and had good cup runs, all while dealing with injuries to main players.
But he hasn’t won the league or champions league in two years though so let’s all laugh at people who prefer Ole here to the 3 previous managers.
undoubtedly he can be improved on but there’s no garunteed improvement out there, just made up fantasy talk
Yawn, again
Grow up, so now if you’re happy with Ole here, you’re like a trump fan? Seriously? hahaOnly Moyes can be compared with Ole. Lvg and Jose comparism is laughable. They did much better job than failed Cardiff manager.
We attack teams? When? If you count counters then ok, you are right. But Jose and Lvg attacked from first minute every team at OT. City, Pool, Chelsea...we attacked them. Ole plays defensive even against mid table teams.
Good run in cups? What are we? Cardiff? Good run in cups?! That is standard under this manager?
And yes, he can be improved. Just pick any manager from PL and Championship and he is improved.
Ok mate, you keep running around with your arms in there talking nonsense and not reading actual posts