Blaming Ole for not having players fit for the opening of the season is genuinely crazy.Of course
Is our fanbase the most entitled/ knee jerk toxic fanbase around?
- Thread starter ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
There's nothing wrong with that opinion, or the way you made it. Being critical of the side while showing some insight into our flaws is not the issue, it's the posters who seem to gleefully jump onto our failures in order to win some imaginary contest who are the problem. Nobody wants to stifle opinions.
Don’t read match day thread
top red by the way
top red by the way
That's my point though. You're comparing this United team to the teams of old. We can't hammer Ole because he's not SAF, SAF was a remarkable once in a lifetime manager who took over the perfect club for him at just the right time.
I'm not a big Ole supporter, to be honest I look at him and I don't envisage us ever getting back to the top with him. But the real reason I'm critical is because I don't see enough progress with this team under him, I don't think he gets enough out of the players at his disposal.
I'm not Ole out because we're not winning titles, it's a weak argument to have because even Klopp would likely struggle with this team. But you'd still back Klopp if he was managing your team cause in those early days at Liverpool you could see the potential, and you believe in his managerial abilities.
We should judge Ole within the scope of what is expected of him, not on the mantra of "Man United should be winning trophies no matter what". I think that rigid belief has skewed what we should come to expect from this manager and team.
I personally disagree about not seeing progress, but good post, and of course I’d like to see him getting more out of the players, but think (hope
) that’s coming.Ok agree with that, Ole came in when there weren't many good alternatives. Some might argue there are some now. But I agree that Ole should finish this season but there are some really worrying signs under his management. No clear system already played 5 different systems with 3 variations of 4-4-2. And our shambolic defense seems to become worse.
It's just a bit of knee-jerk fun, and at times a healthy dose of emotional cringe. I quite enjoy having a look through it after games.
No, it's not horrific. And yes, every fanbase is like that.
I think you may have a point if that is a global fanbase generally being more negative. At least, it would be my guess that local fans, who are "closer to the action", are generally more diplomatic when it comes to all things their club, and that their opinions are to a lesser extent influenced by pundits and TV commentators (who are often shit stirrers by trade). It is my understanding that match going fans are generally the last to call for someone's head, and I can't imagine them posting a lot in match day threads either - kind of a waste of a ticket.
I don't agree that this forum is particularly negative. Knee-jerk, yes, like all football forums. But negative, no. At least not compared to any other football forum, or any forum, or anything internet. If you discount obvious trolls and cry babies, and you take threads that are made for knee-jerkery for what they are (like the match day thread), there's just a lot of opinion.
This is the age of instant gratification, no doubt about that. Still, this is just a football forum. Pretty low-key stuff at the end of the day.
I've never taken the time to count how active any one particular person is in a match day thread, and generally don't take notice of usernames. So I'm just guessing here, but I would think it's mostly just people dropping a line here and there. And because there are a lot of people doing that, you get a long thread. Then during break, they might type some more. If there's anyone who's super-active all the time in the match day thread, then yes, they're obviously not paying attention to the game, or as you say, not actually enjoying football.
Ah, demagoguery. Lovely, lovely demagoguery. There can be no internet debate without it, no matter which 'side' anyone's on.
That is the nature of anonymous human interaction, and it goes for all fans, any sport, or any topic. You think a political forum would be any better? Or a forum on hobby archeology? The level of politeness, honesty and conviction behind what people express behind anonymity will always be lower, and have a bit of a heat-of-the-moment I-don't-see-who-I'm-talking-to aspect to it. You can always ignore the noise, if you want. And if you aren't, well then maybe that's because you find it a bit entertaining after all.
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Their answer is the same, but when they try to verbalise it they struggle. Ole needs to win every single game comfortably, if he doesn they were right, and that was the real quiz
I agree the end of this season is when we should evaluate him.
The most vocally negative United fans have a very similar mindset to Trump fans - they value feelings over facts, repeat the same platitudes over and over again, stifle discourse and just cannot be reasoned with...it's uncanny.
Not really.
We took the Europa League seriously. We didn't have to. We could have rested our main players. We had little to win trying hard in it and a lot to lose.
It was a decision that was made.
I don't know if this is a "known" thing on these forums but after world cup / euros years the number of goals scored in the league over the whole season goes down. After years with a European break, the goals go up. That's across all 20 teams in the league, not just us.
Playing through the summer is brutal. Especially with a small squad. I guess it's not too different to playing after the euros except it hurts us and not Sheffield United.
So that's the first thing, we could have made another decision there.
Next thing is match fitness. It's (presumably) entirely possible to use the Europa League as preseason training and come out one of the best in the league. We didn't quite do that. We didn't start the season match ready. It's a terrible situation to be in, but you need look at management as to how to solve it. There probably was a way to make us match fit. It's not impossible. So you have to ask why it didn't happen. It's a fair question.
thanks. I don’t agree with all your points, but they are well reasoned. I’d give you a like if I was a mod. That’s sort of sounds condescending, but it’s really not meant that way.
maybe I do enjoy it and find it entertaining
People just like to moan about things nowadays.
Didn’t think the match day thread was all that bad today seen it a lot worse.
Didn’t think the match day thread was all that bad today seen it a lot worse.
It certainly isn’t you. I see this kind of mentality all around the forum. If 99 happened again you’d have a portion of fans feel ashamed because we were only good for 2 mins..
Is there a worse run big club over the last 10 years? Recruitment, management, planning etc all has been majorly lacking. We haven’t had very many likeable players either all while throwing the money around. You can’t really blame the fans for taking it badly when there’s no sign in sight of things changing significantly. I’m Ole in. I hope he cracks it soon but I think we are a few players away yet
Yeah I hope so too. And I get what you're saying, watching us at the moment is night and day to at any stage over the past 7 years. We look like a team capable of destroying anyone on our day.I personally disagree about not seeing progress, but good post, and of course I’d like to see him getting more out of the players, but think (hope
In the same breath, we're back in the Europa League and again scrambling for Top 4, so it's hard to really evaluate at the moment. I think a title challenge, and a trophy would be a great season, and I'll concede that our league form over the last few months has probably bought Ole until the end of the season, which is a more logical time to evaluate him.
I entirely agree, we can't clone Fergie. I'm enjoying watching OGSs United much more than Mou or LVG.
But we have to ask had questions which we would of any other manager. Why weren't we match fit at the start of the season.
Imagine if a big corporation had mucked up, say, a product launch. You'd ask "okay why didn't you have enough units ready?" "Well the pandemic hurt our manufacturing capabilities" "Okay, was there anything you could have done to mitigate that?". "Yes, we could have done these things" "okay, and could you have forseen that this was going to be needed?" .. "yes, maybe".
We knew that we were going to need to start strong and be match fit. We knew we were going to be hurting after the Europa League finals tournament.
Those are forseesble problems. If we weren't match fit upon season start, that's on us.
it is fair to question the management for our start to the season.
personally I think it was right to go for the Europa League, I’m not a fan of the competition, but given how deep we were, I think it would have been wrong to treat it as a pre-season.
we weren’t prepared for the start of the season - but given it was a completely unique situation, and many other teams have started poorly, I don’t think we can blame the management team. In retrospect, of course we should have made different decisions, but that can be said of many things in retrospect.
Saw Ole being called a jackass and a cretin in a single page I think for not bringing on DVB around 60 mins. But sadly yeah it has been a lot worse.
I know you’ve kind of phrased the question as “are other fans like this” but from this post and your posts in other threads its clear you think United fans are some anomaly and are the worse.
I assure you they are not.
I recommend you take trips to the forums of other clubs or just go on Twitter to see that everyone has mental/knee jerk/overly negative/overly positive/ top red type fans. It’s called the internet..... People vent on the internet, exaggerate their opinion.
Lots of bluemoon were slagging off Guardiola all last season. Even after two 98+ points plus seasons. A treble, and back to back titles.Theres been lots of slagging off of Sterling this season.
You think United fans are too hard on Ole, compare what he’s done at United to what Guardiola has done at city and you’ll know who’s fans are more “horrific” and “negative”.
Newcastle fans constantly slag off Bruce even though he is doing exactly the same job as Rafa who in their warped minds took them to never before seen heights.
I wouldn’t even go near Arsenal forums right now if I were you.
You get a few nutters on match day that’s for sure.
Emotions can run high even with the most loyal of fans don’t think it represents our entire fan base or how they actually feel.
We won the bloody game and led for most of it. Of course it's been worse
The match day thread is purely a venting exercise and I wouldn't take much of it seriously beyond the contents of the game but some do take things too far.
it’s one of the reasons I asked the question. My experience of other teams’ supporters are in real life, rather than online.
I don’t think I want to go down the Twitter route for my own sanity! But I get your point.
Yeah Ole raises as many questions as he answers on a daily basis. You could ask why we went so gung-ho and attacking at the start of the season, with Pogba in midfield still recovering from COVID.
Is there a case to say could we have shut up shop and taken the abuse that would have come with that, in favour of grabbing an extra result or two?
I'm not saying we can't criticise Ole, I question his abilities as much as the next person. But I also think at times he's being judged against an unfair spectrum, that being the standards set by the United of old.
There are lots of people that didn't take to LVG and Jose and some of those would have expressed the same pessimism and despair at times and some of those fans are probably those who are very pro-Ole. I agree there's way too much mud thrown his way but I think people can express their doubts.
I'm not Ole in or Ole out; barring a catastrophic collapse from now and in January he's here for the rest of the season at the very least and deservedly so. I just don't have a lot of faith in him, and to be honest, although he's an absolute legend and seemingly a nice guy, I just haven't taken to him as manager despite the fact that I can say, unequivocally, he has done some very good things. I mean, one win in our game in hand and we're second; that's impressive. A champions league exit from a very good position and last season being saved by the signing of Bruno (and only JUST saved) is less so. I don't think it's kneejerk to say that he's had some very dodgy moments and moments where I've honestly thought he's bumbled his way through management at times.
I'm not Ole in or Ole out; barring a catastrophic collapse from now and in January he's here for the rest of the season at the very least and deservedly so. I just don't have a lot of faith in him, and to be honest, although he's an absolute legend and seemingly a nice guy, I just haven't taken to him as manager despite the fact that I can say, unequivocally, he has done some very good things. I mean, one win in our game in hand and we're second; that's impressive. A champions league exit from a very good position and last season being saved by the signing of Bruno (and only JUST saved) is less so. I don't think it's kneejerk to say that he's had some very dodgy moments and moments where I've honestly thought he's bumbled his way through management at times.
Imagine being called entitled after being shit and irrelevant for a better part of a decade and...waiting
I think I know what the real problem OP has is.
Indeed lots of teams are in the same situation as we are.
Liverpool, Spurs, Leicester, Everton and Southampton didn't play in August - and look at how strong they started. (Liverpool the exception I guess).
Us, City, Chelsea (1 game), and Wolves did play in August. But we were the only ones who didn't really need to try hard.
Anyway just my 2 cents
DVB getting slated for not making a pass 10 seconds after he came on was a weird one.
Syphilis?
Try Real Madrid.
The "toxicity" here is that of a kindergarten level where one group of people cannot accept the preference of the other then they fight, trying to take the piss out of each other. E.g: when Ole win "Where are you now Ole outters? whoop whoop", when Ole lose "Ole inners are bunch of idiots they are hiding now". It's not even toxic, just childish. Usually it's a divide between the manager or players. I mean some people still love Lingard for god sake.
I don't think RedCafe represents majority of Utd supporters.
You could argue that the kneejerk threads were about the results. But guess what? what's behind them were actually people wanting to praise Ole as the next Sir Alex or get sacked in the morning. While mocking the other group that they don't agree with.
The "toxicity" here is that of a kindergarten level where one group of people cannot accept the preference of the other then they fight, trying to take the piss out of each other. E.g: when Ole win "Where are you now Ole outters? whoop whoop", when Ole lose "Ole inners are bunch of idiots they are hiding now". It's not even toxic, just childish. Usually it's a divide between the manager or players. I mean some people still love Lingard for god sake.
I don't think RedCafe represents majority of Utd supporters.
You could argue that the kneejerk threads were about the results. But guess what? what's behind them were actually people wanting to praise Ole as the next Sir Alex or get sacked in the morning. While mocking the other group that they don't agree with.
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Certainly if this forum is indicative of our fanbase, its all there to see: some of the most corrosive knee jerk moaners around. Much prefer deluded Liverpool fans on RAWK during their wilderness years.
However, the toxic hate loving key board warriors are only getting airtime because we don't have match going fans to set the narrative. And our match going fans, especially away ones are brilliant fans, so hopefully as soon as they get back, these digital wannabe's can fade into oblivion.
I have to say in real life any fans I’ve meet absolutely hate Maguire and Pogba more so than on the Caf..
Sums up my thoughts quite perfectly.
Then register there
This is what I meant by childish. Not toxic, just extremely arrogant like a child. Oooo Top Red friends. You are talking about people moaning but you are one of them big moaners in the forum. And you posted a lot of insults to 'a certain group of individuals'.
When we win, it's due to some brilliant player performance or luck. And we only manage to play counter-attacking football. Still, this season we've come back from behind 6/12 games in PL. That number is outrageous, and shouldn't be possible if we only manage to counter-attack. I can't remember us being close to this kind of mentality in over 10 years. Under SAF, we never gave up.
I'd prefer if we didn't let the opponent score first every game, but it's the result at the end of the game that matters.
I'd prefer if we didn't let the opponent score first every game, but it's the result at the end of the game that matters.
Because supporting my team and manager is toxic?
