Frank Lampard's Sack Watch / Sacked

[Wibble]

Why would I want to see Lampard's testicle?

 

[Tallis]

Saw that. He's not who I want to hear from. It's the main panel of Craig Burnley, Shakha Hislop and Stevie Nichols (and that little rat who eggs them on)...

As much as I want to avoid ESPN, the YouTube algorithm seems to love them. Their hypocrisy with how they beat up Sarri and Ole vs how they treat Fat Frank is too ridiculous to be just plain vanilla foodball pundit bias.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

As much as I want to avoid ESPN, the YouTube algorithm seems to love them. Their hypocrisy with how they beat up Sarri and Ole vs how they treat Fat Frank is too ridiculous to be just plain vanilla foodball pundit bias.

Yup...they seem to love Arteta too. Amazing how "nobody could do better with the players Arteta has" but when Ole was stuck having to use Lingard and Peirera "he should be fired". And now that we don't have to use those players and are doing better he still can't get any respect. Steve Nichol went as far as to make fun or our result vs Leeds because of how Leeds plays. Amazing how nobody else has done what we did to them...

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

This is just so wrong. They both can fundamentally work as a pairing as long as you know how to utilise their assets which Lampard is the issue here and also another issue is that Havertz. Because Havertz hasn’t been creative enough to create chances when he has the ball which makes those two looked worse. It worked when we had McTominay and Fred played double pivot with Bruno in front of them.

Kovacic & Kante have incredible work rate and tenacity to win the ball back, this is so perfect with your current squad as you have James & Chillwel who are attacking full backs that can offer creativity, this offers balance and gives more license to attack with 6 attacking players as if you are hit on counter with your full backs were out of position, Kante & Kovacic will cover the ground to stop the counter.

Kovacic is technical midfielder who tends to drop deep to get the ball and drive the ball forward with his dribble and still capable to supply the ball to the attacking players, that’s also part of making progressive ball. Don’t need to be great in order to supply the ball to attacking players.

McTominay and Fred both sit deeper than Kante and Kovacic do. This is the whole point. Kovacic is not actually that good at tracking back at all, he leaves huge gaps behind him regularly. If you want to play a pivot with Kante in it, the other midfielder has to be one who sits deep and breaks up play - Kante was at his best when paired with Matic.

You even say this yourself - Kovacic is not actually a great passer, the entirety of his ball progression basically is him carrying the ball. They just don't work as a midfield pairing and we have years of evidence to back this up.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

McTominay and Fred both sit deeper than Kante and Kovacic do. This is the whole point. Kovacic is not actually that good at tracking back at all, he leaves huge gaps behind him regularly. If you want to play a pivot with Kante in it, the other midfielder has to be one who sits deep and breaks up play - Kante was at his best when paired with Matic.

Of course they can sit deeper like McTominay and Fred if they are being coached tactically like what Ole does to McTominay and Fred which the whole point why @MayosNoun mentioned the 4231 formation is much more suitable.

You even say this yourself - Kovacic is not actually a great passer, the entirety of his ball progression basically is him carrying the ball. They just don't work as a midfield pairing and we have years of evidence to back this up.

I never said such thing. And I mentioned he has asset to make progressive ball to the attacking players. Read again please.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Of course they can sit deeper like McTominay and Fred if they are being coached tactically like what Ole does to McTominay and Fred which the whole point why @MayosNoun mentioned the 4231 formation is much more suitable.

Putting aside the ridiculousness of you trying to lecture me about my team's players' attributes, let's dig into this a bit. If Kante and Kovacic sit deeper then there is no ball progression through midfield. Neither Kante nor Kovacic are capable of progressing the ball with passes on a consistent basis. This has been established conclusively over the past two and a half seasons. It seems you are getting your information on Chelsea's players from FIFA and not from actual football.

Comparing us to United doesn't make sense either; Bruno is an elite creator when he drops deep. We don't have a player like that; Havertz isn't a deep playmaker and is much more of a finisher. Ziyech could potentially be this player but using him as a 10 seems a waste when he's so effective from the right wing.

I never said such thing. And I mentioned he has asset to make progressive ball to the attacking players. Read again please.

Kovacic is technical midfielder who tends to drop deep to get the ball and drive the ball forward with his dribble and still capable to supply the ball to the attacking players, that’s also part of making progressive ball. Don’t need to be great in order to supply the ball to attacking players.

QED. How is he supposed to stay deep if he's driving the ball forward with his dribbling? Both Kovacic and Kante can only be used in a midfield pairing with a destroyer CDM; as a partnership they fundamentally do not work.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Putting aside the ridiculousness of you trying to lecture me about my team's players' attributes, let's dig into this a bit. If Kante and Kovacic sit deeper then there is no ball progression through midfield. Neither Kante nor Kovacic are capable of progressing the ball with passes on a consistent basis. This has been established conclusively over the past two and a half seasons. It seems you are getting your information on Chelsea's players from FIFA and not from actual football.

Comparing us to United doesn't make sense either; Bruno is an elite creator when he drops deep. We don't have a player like that; Havertz isn't a deep playmaker and is much more of a finisher. Ziyech could potentially be this player but using him as a 10 seems a waste when he's so effective from the right wing.





QED. How is he supposed to stay deep if he's driving the ball forward with his dribbling? Both Kovacic and Kante can only be used in a midfield pairing with a destroyer CDM; as a partnership they fundamentally do not work.

You don’t read mate, I’m 100% sure you didn’t read the whole post of what I said in my first replied because everything what you said in that last post didn’t counter any of my point.

I’m telling you, you are wrong when you said fundamentally Kante & Kovacic cannot work together in pair, because they can as long as you know how to utilise their assets which Lampard is the issue here and also another issue is that Havertz because Havertz hasn’t been creative enough to create chances when he has the ball which makes those two looked worse.

One of Kovacic trademarks is dropping deep to receive the ball and then driving the ball forward especially with his dribbling before he supply the ball to more attacking players, this is part of progressing ball.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

You don’t read mate, I’m 100% sure you didn’t read the whole post of what I said in my first replied because everything what you said in that last post didn’t counter any of my point.

I’m telling you, you are wrong when you said fundamentally Kante & Kovacic cannot work together in pair, because they can as long as you know how to utilise their assets which Lampard is the issue here and also another issue is that Havertz because Havertz hasn’t been creative enough to create chances when he has the ball which makes those two looked worse.

One of Kovacic trademarks is dropping deep to receive the ball and then driving the ball forward especially with his dribbling before he supply the ball to more attacking players, this is part of progressing ball.

How on earth is the same player expected to both sit deep as is needed in a 4231 whilst also progressing the ball by carrying it? Especially when paired with another player with the exact same attributes?

 

[pascell]

Why are so many people watching out for Frank's sack?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

How on earth is the same player expected to both sit deep as is needed in a 4231 whilst also progressing the ball by carrying it? Especially when paired with another player with the exact same attributes?

Double pivot isn't about two players sit deep together all the time, it's not playing with two holding midfielder role, it's more fluid. They only sit deep together when the team in defensive shape. But when the team in possession trying to build the attack, one of them can advanced further more and you don't need to be in the penalty box in order to make progressive ball.

Kovacic is much more technical player, he's more transitional midfielder who gets the ball forward before releasing it to an attacking player. While Kante is less technical with better tackling ability. They don't offer exact same attributes.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Double pivot isn't about two players sit deep together all the time, it's not playing with two holding midfielder role, it's more fluid. They only sit deep together when the team in defensive shape. But when the team in possession trying to build the attack, one of them can advanced further more and you don't need to be in the penalty box in order to make progressive ball.

Kovacic is much more technical player, he's more transitional midfielder who gets the ball forward before releasing it to an attacking player. While Kante is less technical with better tackling ability. They don't offer exact same attributes.

I have said this repeatedly. I know how a double pivot works. Kovacic cannot play as a lone holding midfielder to cover for Kante going forward. He isn't good enough defensively and neither one is good enough at passing to make this formation work. No one said you need to be in the penalty box to "make progressive ball", do you actually think that going only 81 metres instead of 82 away from your own goal is the dividing line between going forward and not?

I genuinely don't know why you're trying to argue this with me; it'd be like me arguing Rashford should play at striker with Martial as a left wing whilst Bruno plays in a pivot. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of our players' attributes and just don't know what you're talking about. It's adorable really.

 

[crossy1686]

Why are so many people watching out for Frank's sack?

I think it's mainly due to Ole being one loss away from the sack since about May last year. Lampard and Arteta are getting free rides for some reason, despite being underwhelming.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I have said this repeatedly. I know how a double pivot works. Kovacic cannot play as a lone holding midfielder to cover for Kante going forward. He isn't good enough defensively and neither one is good enough at passing to make this formation work. No one said you need to be in the penalty box to "make progressive ball", do you actually think that going only 81 metres instead of 82 away from your own goal is the dividing line between going forward and not?

I genuinely don't know why you're trying to argue this with me; it'd be like me arguing Rashford should play at striker with Martial as a left wing whilst Bruno plays in a pivot. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of our players' attributes and just don't know what you're talking about. It's adorable really.

Clearly you don't. In double pivot, there is no lone holding midfielder. Neither McTominay & Fred can play as a lone holding midfielder. Kovacic defensively is similar to Fred with both are very good in ball recoveries due to their work rate.

Kovacic not good enough defensively and not good enough at passing? This is where your view on him is different with what my view on him.

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My argument is so simple, Kovacic & Kane fundamentally can work together in pair and I agree with MayosNoun. The fact that you started mentioning Rashford, Martial & Bruno and making it like same argument shows you don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Clearly you don't. In double pivot, there is no lone holding midfielder. Neither McTominay & Fred can play as a lone holding midfielder. Kovacic defensively is similar to Fred with both are very good in ball recoveries due to their work rate.

Kovacic not good enough defensively and not good enough at passing? This is where your view on him is different with what my view on him.

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My argument is so simple, Kovacic & Kane fundamentally can work together in pair and I agree with MayosNoun. The fact that you started mentioning Rashford, Martial & Bruno and making it like same argument shows you don't know what I'm talking about.

fecking hell, if one of the midfield pivot goes forward than the other becomes the lone holder. I genuinely cannot believe that this is a concept I have had to lay out.

Next, absolutely hilarious to use WhoScored as some sort of authority, but let's just move past that for now. Kovacic and Fred are similar types of players in that they do their best work moving vertically and pressing forward - neither one is good at sweeping, which involves moving horizontally across the pitch. Kante is this exact same profile of player when used in a double pivot or as an 8. Playing two of these together in a 2 man midfield inevitably results in massive gaps for the opposition to exploit - have you wondered why Chelsea were so open on the break last year? It's because we persisted in using stupid midfield pairings like Kante and Kovacic. Fred is also far better at tracking back than Kovacic is.

Your argument is simple just like you are. There is more than 2 seasons' worth of evidence categorically demonstrating that Kante and Kovacic don't work as a midfield pairing. You are arguing that 2+2=5 after everyone has accepted that it's 4.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

fecking hell, if one of the midfield pivot goes forward than the other becomes the lone holder. I genuinely cannot believe that this is a concept I have had to lay out.

Next, absolutely hilarious to use WhoScored as some sort of authority, but let's just move past that for now. Kovacic and Fred are similar types of players in that they do their best work moving vertically and pressing forward - neither one is good at sweeping, which involves moving horizontally across the pitch. Kante is this exact same profile of player when used in a double pivot or as an 8. Playing two of these together in a 2 man midfield inevitably results in massive gaps for the opposition to exploit - have you wondered why Chelsea were so open on the break last year? It's because we persisted in using stupid midfield pairings like Kante and Kovacic.

Again, this is why I said you don't need to be advanced forward to penalty box in order to make progressive ball. There are limits of how much player from double pivot can advanced further forward to be able to cover and keep the distance between the other midfielder when being counter and if one midfield decided to advanced to penalty box like McTominay goal vs Leeds, one player either full back or the number 10 can hold their spot to get ready for opposition counter. This is completely different to lone holder, this is not Matic & Fabregas double pivot. This is more similar to Fred & McTominay double pivot. Fred & McTominay are the exact same profile to each other like how you described Kovacic & Kante.

Fred is also far better at tracking back than Kovacic is.

Kante is also far better at tracking back than McTominay is. What's your argument?

Your argument is simple just like you are. There is more than 2 seasons' worth of evidence categorically demonstrating that Kante and Kovacic don't work as a midfield pairing. You are arguing that 2+2=5 after everyone has accepted that it's 4.

You don't know what you are reading.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Again, this is why I said you don't need to be advanced forward to penalty box in order to make progressive ball. There are limits of how much player from double pivot can advanced further forward to be able to cover and keep the distance between the other midfielder when being counter and if one midfield decided to advanced to penalty box like McTominay goal vs Leeds, one player either full back or the number 10 can hold their spot to get ready for opposition counter. This is completely different to lone holder, this is not Matic & Fabregas double pivot. This is more similar to Fred & McTominay double pivot. Fred & McTominay are the exact same profile to each other like how you described Kovacic & Kante.

Kante is also far better at tracking back than McTominay is. What's your argument?

You don't know what you are reading.

Apparently it's important to be able to "make progressive ball", yet neither Kante nor Kovacic have demonstrated an ability to get the ball into dangerous areas via passing it so...? Essentially you're arguing that one of them should carry the ball forward into the final third, pass it somehow, then stay there along with 4 other attacking players. And at the same time they should hold their position deeper to cut off the opponent.

Fred and McTominay also are not the same type of player. I cannot believe that on a United forum this has to be said.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I hope Chelsea regain some form so the pressure softens on Lampard. That squad with a proper manager would be another team to beat.

Hopefully he stays in Chelsea for a long long time.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Apparently it's important to be able to "make progressive ball", yet neither Kante nor Kovacic have demonstrated an ability to get the ball into dangerous areas via passing it so...? Essentially you're arguing that one of them should carry the ball forward into the final third, pass it somehow, then stay there along with 4 other attacking players. And at the same time they should hold their position deeper to cut off the opponent.

What the feck are you on about, don't waste my time if you can't read. I never arguing about one of them should carry the ball forward into the final third. Progressive ball isn't about carrying the ball forward into final third, supplying the ball to the creative players doesn't always mean you need to supply the ball into the final third.

nor Kovacic have demonstrated it? He is your 4th most creative player last season mate

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Fred and McTominay also are not the same type of player. I cannot believe that on a United forum this has to be said.

Either you play dumb with me or this proves you don't know how to read (read below quote). I can't waste my time on people who don't read. And based on your stupid logic, neither Kante & Kovacic are same.

Fred & McTominay are the exact same profile to each other like how you described Kovacic & Kante.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

What the feck are you on about, don't waste my time if you can't read. I never arguing about one of them should carry the ball forward into the final third. Progressive ball isn't about carrying the ball forward into final third, supplying the ball to the creative players doesn't always mean you need to supply the ball into the final third.

nor Kovacic have demonstrated it? He is your 4th most creative player last season mate

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This proves you don't know how to read (read below quote). I can't waste my time on people who don't read. And based on your logic, neither Kante & Kovacic are similar.

You just keep demonstrating that you have no idea what you're on about. Kovacic played most of last year alongside Jorginho in a pairing given Kante's injury problems - this worked to some extent as Jorginho for all his faults sits deep and can make progressive passes from deep areas. Kante doesn't really do either of those things, so how this is relevant to Kovacic playing deeper in a proverbial midfield pivot with him is a mystery.

Again, stop trying to lecture me about my club's players, you're just embarrassing yourself. I can only hope your use of stats is willfully stupid and that you don't actually believe the shit you're spouting - comparing Kante who's played as a 6 all year until the Villa match and Kovacic who's played as an 8 is just idiotic. Obviously they look different because they are playing different roles - I'd have thought this was a given but based on your post history apparently I have to explain the absolute basics of football analysis. NUMBERS FOR GUY WHO DO ONE THING ARE DIFFERENT FROM NUMBERS FOR GUY WHO DO OTHER THING ON FOOTBALL PITCH, COMPARING THEM IS SOFT BRAINED AND STUPID.

Here's a better comparison using the very blunt tools that you seem limited to:


If you don't understand how these two players are very similar in terms of ball progression, maybe go and read some papers then get back to me.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

You just keep demonstrating that you have no idea what you're on about. Kovacic played most of last year alongside Jorginho in a pairing given Kante's injury problems - this worked to some extent as Jorginho for all his faults sits deep and can make progressive passes from deep areas. Kante doesn't really do either of those things, so how this is relevant to Kovacic playing deeper in a proverbial midfield pivot with him is a mystery.

Again, stop trying to lecture me about my club's players, you're just embarrassing yourself. I can only hope your use of stats is willfully stupid and that you don't actually believe the shit you're spouting - comparing Kante who's played as a 6 all year until the Villa match and Kovacic who's played as an 8 is just idiotic. Obviously they look different because they are playing different roles - I'd have thought this was a given but based on your post history apparently I have to explain the absolute basics of football analysis. NUMBERS FOR GUY WHO DO ONE THING ARE DIFFERENT FROM NUMBERS FOR GUY WHO DO OTHER THING ON FOOTBALL PITCH.

That's laughable and you have been proven don't read people post. Not every Chelsea fans have the same opinion as yours mate, MayosNoun is Chelsea fans who think the double pivot of Kante & Kovacic could work and I agree with his point and I backed it up with not just what I watched and my opinion but also stats and good example of McTominay & Fred partnership.

I'll leave this for you, I think Kovacic deserves more appreciation.

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Here's a better comparison using the very blunt tools that you seem limited to:


If you don't understand how these two players are very similar in terms of ball progression, maybe go and read some papers then get back to me.

Using whoscored stats to talk about ''ball progression''? What's the point? Key passes and long ball aren't the only aspects viewed as ball progressive, there are more.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

That's laughable and you have been proven don't read people post. Not every Chelsea fans have the same opinion as yours mate, MayosNoun is Chelsea fans who think the double pivot of Kante & Kovacic could work and I agree with his point and I backed it up with not just what I watched and my opinion but also stats and good example of McTominay & Fred partnership.

I'll leave this for you, I think Kovacic deserves more appreciation.

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Using whoscored stats to talk about ''ball progression''? What's the point? Key passes and long ball aren't the only aspects viewed as ball progressive, there are more.

This is pointless. Your argument is basically "a 2 man midfield works for my team, therefore it would work for yours" despite the fact that the profiles of midfielder are completely different.

MayosNoun and you have apparently not watched Chelsea play for the last two seasons. You keep talking about this partnership like it's a hypothetical and we haven't watched it regularly for years now. You criticised Chelsea regularly last season for being far too open - the root cause of that is the Kante / Kovacic midfield. This doesn't mean Kovacic is a bad player, not every player is compatible with every other one. It's nothing to do with his quality just the extent to which his best and worst attributes align with those of Kante. If we get Rice for instance a Kovacic / Rice pairing would look brilliant most likely.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

This is pointless. Your argument is basically "a 2 man midfield works for my team, therefore it would work for yours" despite the fact that the profiles of midfielder are completely different.

MayosNoun and you have apparently not watched Chelsea play for the last two seasons. You keep talking about this partnership like it's a hypothetical and we haven't watched it regularly for years now. You criticised Chelsea regularly last season for being far too open - the root cause of that is the Kante / Kovacic midfield. This doesn't mean Kovacic is a bad player, not every player is compatible with every other one. It's nothing to do with his quality just the extent to which his best and worst attributes align with those of Kante. If we get Rice for instance a Kovacic / Rice pairing would look brilliant most likely.

You excuses why it won’t work based on incapability with their progression ball and can’t play in holding role. Using your lame excuses, McTominay and Fred are also having the same problems with their progression ball and can’t play in holding role. You can’t just call it pointless without any detail explanation.

I never criticised Chelsea for being too open last season, I criticised Chelsea’s defense for making mistakes so don’t keep make things up and bring up another irrelevant argument on the table.

Even the stat shows you are wrong about Kovacic as a player, he was your 4th most creative player in term both progressive ball and passing. You think you know something, no you are not.

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[podurban2]

I remember how jealous I was of their signings going into the season. Now it looks as if top 4 is already out of reach for them.

Same amount of points as West Ham. Only 3 points better than Arsenal.

 

[Damien]

https://www.theshedend.com/topic/34...l-sun-3rd-jan-2021-1630-gmt/page/12/#comments

If we can't get a respectable result here Lampard might be done. Playing against City's B-Team at home and losing that hard after only 20 minutes is just not acceptable.

Need Frank sacked asap before he throws another 80m in the bin to get Rice

Even the greatest players don’t always make the best coaches. Different sport, but look at the great Wayne Gretzky — indisputably the greatest hockey player, but also indisputably a colossal failure as a coach. Adieu Frank.

If any other manager had a run like this it would’ve been over weeks ago. Spent this much and were still sh*t and Frank has no other way of setting the team up or doing anything different. He just wasn’t ready for this level of management yet and it’s just going to keep showing and showing like today against Pep.

 

[Random Task]

I remember how jealous I was of their signings going into the season. Now it looks as if top 4 is already out of reach for them.

Same amount of points as West Ham. Only 3 points better than Arsenal.

Chelsea are 3 points behind 4th place, only 7 points behind United at the top of the table. Top four is well within their reach.

I can't see him getting sacked tonight regardless of the result. Then again, the Chelsea board are know to be ruthless so who knows.

 

[Tiber]

Much of the same media which sneers at Ole seemed so keen to build up Lampard.

How's that going these days?

 

[FootballHQ]

Looked like a Sunday league team so far.

Leicester and Spurs away in next 5 league games. Fulham away is much harder game aswell than two months ago.

Likely CL elimination in next two months aswell.

 

[podurban2]

Chelsea are 3 points behind 4th place, only 7 points behind United at the top of the table. Top four is well within their reach.

I can't see him getting sacked tonight regardless of the result. Then again, the Chelsea board are know to be ruthless so who knows.

With one more game played though, I can see them going into meltdown mode with a couple more bad results.

 

[Maluco]

If this gets worse, he is a goner. They are looking terrible at the moment. Change will be made

 

[T00lsh3d]

Ohhhh fatty....this is not good

 

[Bojan11]

He sure does love Mason Mount.

 

[el3mel]

Guy is massively underperforming and underachieving. This is underwhelming.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Ohhhh fatty....this is not good

Harsh, but still

 

[Nickelodeon]

It’s getting closer by the game

 

[Chairman Steve]

It's all set up for Tuchel to swoop in. The nature of how he was sacked from PSG is unusual... maybe Tuchel's been looking to get out of the ego circus of PSG and go elsewhere.

 

[Castia]

Tick tock

Can’t spend the money he has to go backwards, he’s on the same points as 10th. Roman won’t put up with this for long.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

We need a

"Chelsea twitter goes into meltdown" thread.

Its not quite rawk or blue moon but there's Some gems on there.

 

[FrankDrebin]

They'll very likely get in a better manager.

 

[Random Task]

They'll very likely get in a better manager.

Who?

I could see Poch taking the job a few days ago but that's out of the question now.

 

[Crustanoid]

It's all set up for Tuchel to swoop in. The nature of how he was sacked from PSG is unusual... maybe Tuchel's been looking to get out of the ego circus of PSG and go elsewhere.

From one plastic oil club to another