Joining the TPP is a no-brainer. The long term vision has to be to slowly build this out into an Asia-centric trade zone to compete with China.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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If the UK had FTA"s with all of the countries in the world it wouldn't make up for losing what it has lost by leaving the EU Customs Union.
It's complete and utter bs propaganda from the government.
The UK trades with the USA now, before the EU, after the EU, even having a FTA with the USA is not going to make a significant difference in the volume of trade.
The TTP is about Australia and NZ because they are ex colonial English speaking countres, the fact that they are so far away and trade is minute makes no difference as it appeals to Brexiters.
They've been sold a pup from a dodgy second hand car dealer, discovered the car has no engine, and the wheels are starting to fall off.
It's complete and utter bs propaganda from the government.
The UK trades with the USA now, before the EU, after the EU, even having a FTA with the USA is not going to make a significant difference in the volume of trade.
The TTP is about Australia and NZ because they are ex colonial English speaking countres, the fact that they are so far away and trade is minute makes no difference as it appeals to Brexiters.
They've been sold a pup from a dodgy second hand car dealer, discovered the car has no engine, and the wheels are starting to fall off.
I don't think most people would disagree with you about leaving the customs union and we know how much has been lost there. That doesn't mean there's no benefits from joining something like the TTP especially when someone like the US are also thinking about joining. The pledge from the trade agreement is to have 95% of products between the participating countries with no or reduced tariffs.
Brexit was bad for the UK but unfortunately it's happened and we do need to look at other agreements even if they cover nowhere near the trade we currently have with the EU. As I said, I think this agreement is only beneficial if the US do join as they currently buy more than double the UK's exports as the rest of the countries put together. Whether that will happen is only on Biden's words at the moment.
It's also worth noting that it covers services and digital trade.
We're living off scraps but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't go for those scraps.
Of course the UK should try for anything they can scramble. The USA as an individual country (as opposed to a bloc of countries) has always been and always will be the UK's biggest individual trading partner but to have an agreement surely means they would expect to signficantly increase their trading. It won't. The USA is Ireland's biggest individual trading partner.
The trading aspect of Brexit was supposed to increase the UK's trade, not to scarmble around for scraps. Brexiters clearly still believe that the positives outweigh the negatves, which couldn't be further from the truth.
Bonjour, Wolfie.
I saw this and immediately thought of you.
Since his flamboyant Europeanist speech at the Sorbonne in October 2017, Macron’s juvenile enthusiasm for the European Project has significantly cooled. His growing impatience with Brussels sandbox politics, and his increasing interest in the Open Sea, are nowhere better illustrated than in a stunning speech made in December 2019 and little if at all noticed in Britain. It deserves to be quoted at some length::
“Whenever we consider our national history from the perspective of the longue durée, France has alternatively turned its back on its maritime dimension or embraced it … Every time it has turned its back on its maritime destiny in order to cultivate some continental obsessions [sic], every time it has been afraid of le grand large [the open sea], and refused to face the fact that it was a maritime power, France has regressed. Every time it has embraced its status as a maritime power, France has managed to conquer new frontiers, be it in terms of knowledge or geopolitics … France is Europe’s leading maritime power, and its status as an archipelagic-state is a unique geopolitical asset which makes France a global partner, an Indo-Pacific power as much as a European power… And I intend to see that France continues to exercise its full responsibilities vis-à-vis our maritime neighbours [sic], Australia, Japan, and India, and also America and China … I say with great conviction, the 20th century, in many respects, was continental, with its wars, its challenges, its way of thinking about borders….The 21st century will be maritime. That’s where the geopolitics of commerce and connexions will play out tomorrow. It is in this realm that France will have to define itself, to live with its allies, its neighbours, and perhaps its enemies. It is in the context of the maritime domain that we will have to rethink our existence, our food resources, our technological research…The 21st century will be maritime, I am deeply convinced of that …”
President Macron is unlikely to call for a Frexit anytime soon. But in the coming years, as he continues to make the predictable noises about the centrality of the ‘Franco-German couple’ and the need for ‘European sovereignty’, Macron is also quietly going to strengthen the Franco-British entente cordiale while continuing to turn toward the Open Sea. France’s Indo-Pacific Pivot may be less than a full-fledged Frexit, but it is definitely more than a hedging strategy in the event of a European dis-integration. Will France and Britain be partners, or rivals or both?
I guess that's the essence of diplomacy, isn't it. You become expert at saying what everyone wants to hear, running with the hare and hunting with the hound, but deep down, you just want to look after your own. Just like Angela and Ursula, bless them.
Now, back to your comments about UK trade and Brexit.
It's not about more trade as much as different trade.
Now, the UK can make choices it formerly couldn't, unlike the remaining EU members (or at least that's how it's supposed to work in the EU).
These include
Why is this relevant? Well, this may surprise you, Wolfie, but to a bystander sometimes the way the EU operates can seem unfair or biased towards certain nations. We both know which ones, don't we.
Here's an example of a historic situation which resonates here because farming is an industry which we identify with closely.
French politicians and farmers are not happy about the EU’s plans to revamp the flagship, €58 billion-per-year Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) by putting member states and regions in charge of allocating aid disbursements. Currently, France is the largest recipient of CAP payments, receiving 17% of all expenditures, and campaigners have claimed that a reduction in central funding from Brussels could put the livelihoods of more than half of all French farmers at risk. In common with France’s position on other EU agricultural matters – such as its opposition to the Commission’s proposal to relicense glyphosate – the country’s farmers and politicians have been viewing the planned reform of the CAP from a purely nationalist perspective, choosing to ignore a range of compelling reasons why it needs to change.
It is not hard to see why France might be uneasy about any reform of the CAP that could ultimately lead to a fall in funding or a disadvantageous change in the way in which payments are distributed. The controversial policy, which eats up nearly 40% of the EU’s entire annual budget and goes to 7% of Europe’s population, currently works disproportionally in France’s favour, ploughing billions of euros into the country’s agricultural sector every year. Between 2007 and 2013, France’s farming sector and rural areas benefitted from CAP payments to the tune of more than €70 billion. Over the period leading up to 2020, the country will receive a further €63 billion as a result of the policy. Self-interest dictates that France will inevitably be less than enthusiastic about any policy shift that might challenge the status quo, and that its politicians and farmers will try their damnedest to resist change.
Now, we can farm in a manner that suits us.
That said, I will remain a great fan of your gorgonzola cheese.
I saw this and immediately thought of you.
Since his flamboyant Europeanist speech at the Sorbonne in October 2017, Macron’s juvenile enthusiasm for the European Project has significantly cooled. His growing impatience with Brussels sandbox politics, and his increasing interest in the Open Sea, are nowhere better illustrated than in a stunning speech made in December 2019 and little if at all noticed in Britain. It deserves to be quoted at some length::
“Whenever we consider our national history from the perspective of the longue durée, France has alternatively turned its back on its maritime dimension or embraced it … Every time it has turned its back on its maritime destiny in order to cultivate some continental obsessions [sic], every time it has been afraid of le grand large [the open sea], and refused to face the fact that it was a maritime power, France has regressed. Every time it has embraced its status as a maritime power, France has managed to conquer new frontiers, be it in terms of knowledge or geopolitics … France is Europe’s leading maritime power, and its status as an archipelagic-state is a unique geopolitical asset which makes France a global partner, an Indo-Pacific power as much as a European power… And I intend to see that France continues to exercise its full responsibilities vis-à-vis our maritime neighbours [sic], Australia, Japan, and India, and also America and China … I say with great conviction, the 20th century, in many respects, was continental, with its wars, its challenges, its way of thinking about borders….The 21st century will be maritime. That’s where the geopolitics of commerce and connexions will play out tomorrow. It is in this realm that France will have to define itself, to live with its allies, its neighbours, and perhaps its enemies. It is in the context of the maritime domain that we will have to rethink our existence, our food resources, our technological research…The 21st century will be maritime, I am deeply convinced of that …”
President Macron is unlikely to call for a Frexit anytime soon. But in the coming years, as he continues to make the predictable noises about the centrality of the ‘Franco-German couple’ and the need for ‘European sovereignty’, Macron is also quietly going to strengthen the Franco-British entente cordiale while continuing to turn toward the Open Sea. France’s Indo-Pacific Pivot may be less than a full-fledged Frexit, but it is definitely more than a hedging strategy in the event of a European dis-integration. Will France and Britain be partners, or rivals or both?
I guess that's the essence of diplomacy, isn't it. You become expert at saying what everyone wants to hear, running with the hare and hunting with the hound, but deep down, you just want to look after your own. Just like Angela and Ursula, bless them.
Now, back to your comments about UK trade and Brexit.
It's not about more trade as much as different trade.
Now, the UK can make choices it formerly couldn't, unlike the remaining EU members (or at least that's how it's supposed to work in the EU).
These include
- Making our own laws and regulations.
- A British regulatory framework able to better exploit the fourth industrial revolution and avoid EU protectionism.
- Controlling trade policy, leading to new and better agreements such as the Japan FTA and joining the CPTPP.
- An independent sanctions and human rights regime separate to and more progressive than the EU’s.
- Taking back control of fishing waters eventually and having an exclusive economic zone.
- Replacing the wasteful anti-environmental Common Agricultural Policy.
- A new state aid regime that is responsive and in keeping with free market principles.
- New freeports.
Why is this relevant? Well, this may surprise you, Wolfie, but to a bystander sometimes the way the EU operates can seem unfair or biased towards certain nations. We both know which ones, don't we.
Here's an example of a historic situation which resonates here because farming is an industry which we identify with closely.
French politicians and farmers are not happy about the EU’s plans to revamp the flagship, €58 billion-per-year Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) by putting member states and regions in charge of allocating aid disbursements. Currently, France is the largest recipient of CAP payments, receiving 17% of all expenditures, and campaigners have claimed that a reduction in central funding from Brussels could put the livelihoods of more than half of all French farmers at risk. In common with France’s position on other EU agricultural matters – such as its opposition to the Commission’s proposal to relicense glyphosate – the country’s farmers and politicians have been viewing the planned reform of the CAP from a purely nationalist perspective, choosing to ignore a range of compelling reasons why it needs to change.
It is not hard to see why France might be uneasy about any reform of the CAP that could ultimately lead to a fall in funding or a disadvantageous change in the way in which payments are distributed. The controversial policy, which eats up nearly 40% of the EU’s entire annual budget and goes to 7% of Europe’s population, currently works disproportionally in France’s favour, ploughing billions of euros into the country’s agricultural sector every year. Between 2007 and 2013, France’s farming sector and rural areas benefitted from CAP payments to the tune of more than €70 billion. Over the period leading up to 2020, the country will receive a further €63 billion as a result of the policy. Self-interest dictates that France will inevitably be less than enthusiastic about any policy shift that might challenge the status quo, and that its politicians and farmers will try their damnedest to resist change.
Now, we can farm in a manner that suits us.
That said, I will remain a great fan of your gorgonzola cheese.
I can't say which is more amusing, making Taiwan asking for help look like Germany is betraying it's partners or taking a Macron speech about global politics and making it about frexit.
I'm sure there's some apt idiom for this phenomena.
I'm sure there's some apt idiom for this phenomena.
To be fair it comes from a site formerly named Briefings for Brexit.
You can't do any of those truly independently if you want FTA's (not even going into customs unions where the real benefits are) because you have to have regulatory alignment with anybody you are trading with. The Japan deal was easy as we are historically aligned with the EU on standards and the EU have entered a deal with them themselves so the work was already done. Joining the CPTPP requires a base agreement on goods which is what we will have to negotiate and change our standards if necessary to align with their principles.
Fair points, well made, Balljy. I like the cut of your jib. You appear erudite.
But, surely, when we have the notion to enter an agreement with another country, we are acting independently in the construction of that notion? Unless, of course, we are under some sort of hypnotic control by a third party (Ursula, maybe? She has very piercing eyes).
I concur that once a decision is taken by the UK or indeed any state that enjoys freedom to determine its future course, i.e. pretty much the world minus 27 (or 25 if you omit the two we know well, if you get my drift), then you have to enter a set of discussions and potentially agreements where a degree of conformity will be required, which you can accept or decline, as you choose.
'Choose'. Lovely word, isn't it. Much like flange and malarkey.
Few points here, born British, French Citizen
Gorgonzola's italian.
French farming is subsidised by the EU but so was the UK's , now it has to be subsidised by the UK government, we'll see how that goes. Of course you need to export your farm produce and have now put so many barriers up by leaving the EU Custom's Union it's going to be significantly more difficult to be able to continue to do so.
Trade agreements mean you don't set the rules and regulations of what you export - it's the country you are shipping to tells you what standards and regulations you must abide by. The Japan FTA was the EU's negotiated agreement with a few things added on to try to persuade the British public that Liz Truss knows anything about international trade, ie. based on EU rules.
Having a free trade agreement doesn't mean that the UK have signed a contract worth £x billion - the value is based on historical data.
As you can see even according to the UK governments figures (which are wrong) 75% of their FTA's is with the EU but with loads of barriers instead because they left the custom's union.
On other points, the Uk has only to meet the minimum standards of the EU, if the UK wanted to do something better there was nothing to stop them. State aid is a question but don't seriously believe Tory's are too interested in nationalisation.
I'm sorry but the most crucial part of international trade is geographical proximity without barriers and the UK have put so many barriers by leaving the Customs Union nothing will ever come close to replacing this.
Bonne soirée
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Yeah that defo all sounds Darroch's fault...
Failure to secure US trade deal is blamed on Kim Darroch: Scathing report accuses Britain's former US ambassador of 'failing to adjust swiftly enough' to Brexit referendum in 2016 as negotiations hit a wall
Failure to secure US trade deal is blamed on Kim Darroch: Scathing report accuses Britain's former US ambassador of 'failing to adjust swiftly enough' to Brexit referendum in 2016 as negotiations hit a wall
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...d-Britains-former-ambassador-Kim-Darroch.html
Are you sure about the gorgonzola, Wolfie? When last I frequented the Exquis French Bistro in Eastbourne, I had some and it was fabulous. When I next visit, I shall enquire about its origin and cite you, if I may, as a subject matter expert. I don't think it will reach a point of litigation, but should that happen, might you hop back to your country of birth to speak on the matter?
On a different note and purely out of curiosity, did you move to La Belle France and take the pledge so to speak because of a love of wolves? I deduce an interest in Canis Lupus from your nom de plume. Or is it merely a reflection of constant hunger, as Duran Duran once trilled?
Back to business.
Firstly, British farm produce is highly sought after. As Valerie Berry, the French food critic, stated "There's no comparison (between French and British produce). English cheeses are just amazing. I often bring some back to France and my friends are always like 'wow'. Stilton is a unique product, and well above roquefort, I truly believe that. Then there's Wiltshire ham, Gower potatoes, beef – miles better than charolais or limousin – I could go on."
With Valerie in our corner, I'm sure we can continue to build on the significant growth in such exports to France as well as others. Come on, you Rosbifs!
Thanks for the simplistic explanation of a trade agreement. My understanding is that the key word is 'agreement' and as such, prior to committing to one, both/all parties fully understand the pros and cons, obligations, responsibilities and the like. Otherwise, you might find yourself dealing with an organisation which is hell-bent on tell, tell, tell and 'don't do as I do, do as I say'. I have no idea if such organisations exist, but I'd be jolly careful about dealing with them, if I were you.
I note your awareness of Liz Truss. Nice lady, doing a great job but the first to say she's willing to take advice and help. I'll pass on your details as I'm sure she's always on the lookout for a subject matter expert.
The geographic proximity one is a fair point, well made. You are definitely nearer to North Korea than the UK while we have an edge when it comes to the Americas. That's just how the cookie crumbles, I guess. As for barriers, well, I think our preference is to see them as opportunities to engage in dialogue rather than as insurmountable obstacles.
Oh, and we try to get our orders in early just in case there's a rush.
Wait, the UK is nearer to the Americas than the EU? Which map are you using where you're west of Ireland? Must be an expert matter map!
Does anyone know where I can get replacement sensors for my SmarmyGit-ometer? I seem to have burned out the existing ones.
They’re pretty well stocked throughout the UK despite the issues at the borders.
Doesn't know gorgonzola is Italian and thinks Liz Truss is doing a good job. Ok then.
Gorgonzola is definitely italian; much prefer roquefort to stilton, actually used to live fairly close to Stilton and don't now live that far from Roquefort. Valerie Berry may have very strange tastes.
You could buy English products in France, unfortunately for the UK there will now be less and less due to all the red tape. Nevermind Cheddar is made in France and the USA and Australia.
The wolf is a long story.
As for Liz Truss I wouldn't have employed her as an export clerk in the companies I ran. (International trading companies).Very easily tell she is not qualified to do her job.
You would have thought that before triggering A50 the UK government may have done some kind of due diligence of what may happen, obviously not.
If you take the USA, probably best to take care of what you wish for. The Uk currently have a trading surplus, if the Americans start looking too closely , well, they may say the Uk export ten billion pounds worth of cars to the USA whereas the USA only export £1 billion to the UK. Can't have that, they may say.
By the way our biggest customers were the USA, strangely being in the EU didn't stop us trading with them.
This thread is taking a turn.
Steve.
On the day that Justin Timberlake celebrates his 40th birthday, do you seriously consider cheese snobbery is appropriate?
How’s Robert, by the way?
Chelsea legend
The UK? The country with the special deal since 1985?
And even if you perceive others get an unfair deal then renegotiating it might be better than stropping out. Brexit was the equivalent of lopping your head off because you thought those damn foreigners were making haircuts more expensive.
Nice idea, but surely no one believes that the current UK government will create a human rights act more progressive than we had before?
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/conservative-manifesto-2019-human-rights-act-update-pledge-367116
In an unrelated matter, does anyone know where I can get my Farage Radar (Faragedar) serviced? It's been getting some strange readings.
Do one!This thread is taking a turn.
Cricket this thread has taken an arrogant turn
Germany
Christ. It takes some doing, but Plymouth Red has blown the competition out of the water for worst post in this thread.
I know we're long past the point of anyone trying to convince anyone of their viewpoint, but blimey that's some impressive commitment to making yourself seem smarmy.
I know we're long past the point of anyone trying to convince anyone of their viewpoint, but blimey that's some impressive commitment to making yourself seem smarmy.
Payback for Australia being allowed into the Eurovison Song Contest?
Britain is neither Asian nor has a coastline on the Pacific. So we don't want your sort here.
Surely he can't top vidic piss on sand posts?
Over the years of reading about Brexit, when one side is spitballin facts and logic, while the other is resorting to lies, misdirection, insults, etc. You sort of know which side to believe. And it ain't the smarmy guys. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_IslandsBritain is neither Asian nor has a coastline on the Pacific. So we don't want your sort here.
Believe it or not, I think he’s managed it by jove!
OK. You are in.
'Progressive'. Interesting word, Fluc. Of course, it's one thing having the laws in place and altogether another one applying them, so let's consider how Amnesty International view a couple of important Human Rights issues across Europe.
For all its legislation, as of last December, only 12 European countries out of the 31 analysed by Amnesty International have laws that define rape as sex without consent: Belgium, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, Sweden and the UK. Have a look at the full article and then judge how progressive the EU is on this matter.
On a particularly topical note, check out this report on the human rights violations in the enforcement of Covid measures across Europe. For sure, the UK has not got everything right during the pandemic but boy, some of our former fellow club members have been remiss to put it mildly.
My final observation is about the Roma community. I'm not a member myself but I have a great deal of sympathy for its members if they are unlucky enough to live in any of several EU member states, where their persecution is rife. Again, I recommend Amnesty International as a solid source for the detail if you need convincing. Andrea Carlo also gave it some coverage in the Independent a while ago and things won't have improved since then.
So, Fluc, it's not all as rosy as it might seem within the club and while we definitely can improve on some matters in the UK, we aren't perhaps as bad at the HR stuff as sometimes is painted, possibly illustrated by the substantial number of displaced people who risk life and limb to reach our shores by any means possible.
Ever consider why they don't just settle in France, Spain or Italy? It can't be because of the weather, can it?
The Roma community doesn't settle in France and Spain?
Wibble, Wibble. You've still got the pencils stuck up your nose, haven't you? Take them out now and smell the aroma of democracy. For that's what kicked in, but you know, that already, don't you
Here's how Oliver Wright summed up Cameron's renegotiation (clearly on the same page as you. Well done!) of our membership terms which as agreed by all 28 states in February 2016.
The problem was, in a referendum here, most people didn't like it and the rest, as they say, is history.
I'm sure Cleisthenes didn't specifically start the old 'power to the people' bandwagon rolling in 508 BC with this in mind, but it was jolly kind of him to do so, otherwise we might have all ended up being bossed around by faceless unelected bureaucrats.
On a different note, it's good we're back to having a soft one, isn't it? What a ninny Ursula is.