But SAF bla bla bla.. 5 years.. bla bla bla..
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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This exactly is why the Ole-Out Brigade are justified. The football is absolutely disgustingly bad. Teams with far less material and funds, play a much much better brand of football. Thank Ole for working out some deadwood, thank him for bringing in Bruno, Maguire, and AWB, competition for Shaw in Telles, promoting Greenwood and leading a detox in the club. But that is as far as we will get with him. Next summer we could buy one or two stars, this would be independent of Ole I believe.
We will not play a fluid, expansive brand of football under him, it looked like it when Pogba en Bruno finally united and we played some amazing football with an in-form Matic. This is however far-gone, and we aren't improving at all. You'd have to wonder which club in the Premier League top 10 would like to hire Ole if he became available, and I'm afraid that it would be absolutely none, and that does say something. Wonder if John Murtough will catch any of it though.
We will not play a fluid, expansive brand of football under him, it looked like it when Pogba en Bruno finally united and we played some amazing football with an in-form Matic. This is however far-gone, and we aren't improving at all. You'd have to wonder which club in the Premier League top 10 would like to hire Ole if he became available, and I'm afraid that it would be absolutely none, and that does say something. Wonder if John Murtough will catch any of it though.
I find that shite so disrespectful to SAF, if i'm being honest.
SAF's greatest trait imo was his ability to identify changes in the game and adapt. Even if it was aspects of the game he came up short in, he would hire the relevant supporting cast to address those concerns
You see NONE of that with Ole, which is why its baffling to me why people are so happy to just giving him more time despite seeing nothing that suggests he will ever be able to coach this side to the required level or hire coaching staff who can instead handle the role for him
This is as far as we can go under him. Some good spells, some positive results, but mainly poor football
Let's be honest, no other club in the Premier League would take him as a manager if he was available.
You make a good point. Even if he won the league, i doubt Barca or Madrid or Bayern would seek to hire him.
#progress
Just curious, what extra coaches did SAF bring in in his first 2 and a half years, I’d be interested to see the coaching setup then.
Awful subs, small club mentality subs, constantly inviting teams into our box in the last parts of the game, and not for the first time.
OGS is really poor at reading games and acting quickly during them. I don’t believe that he is running the show...
OGS is really poor at reading games and acting quickly during them. I don’t believe that he is running the show...
Ole fans don't like to hear it but Ole's setup and mentality is what midtable clubs use. Stay deep, wait for counters. With squad quality which we have, it brings result in league (top 4) but it will not bring trophies. Because we are really hard team to beat but if oppo team decides to be cautious and lets face it, every coach now knows that, then our games are boring as hell with small amount of chances.
Mate come on. I’m not anti Ole but today was an awful performance. A truly shocking one in fact.
Should have got porch, tuchel when we had the chance. Now we'll be waiting another few years of 'transition'. So tiresome
None that comes to mind, but things can be funny in context.
The game has changed, SAF was able to last in his job but was coming into a team that was not at the same starting point as Ole nor the same era. Ole rightfully has more expectation to succeed.
Should we just give Ole 5 years too? Despite the fact that no coaches get that amount of time at major clubs anymore? Just for him to struggle to play football against teams who have squads that have probably cost less than he has spent on Maguire alone?
The situations are not comparable by any means.
This board sacked LVG when they identified a manager in Jose who they thought was better. There is very clearly coaches out there who are better than Ole, some even available
It was that bad and yet we’re still not any better, even if we believe Ole has done all these positive things the end result is we’re still no better than 3 years ago.
Why do you say "we" when you support Ajax?
Who?
I think it was Archie Know who managed Dundee United who came to United with SAF. Archie was also his assistant at Aberdeen?
Nagelsmann would be open to a move come the summer IMO. He is 2 points behind a Bayern team, has knocked us out of the CL and his team play some exciting, quick, football. All while having a far inferior team.
I'd take Potter too. His team play some great stuff and are up there for xG, whilst having a terrible team. Would be interesting to see if he can turn that good football into winning football with better players
It was shockingly noticable that Milan were so much more well drilled defensively than us. They kept a really nice, compact shape. Everyone seemed to know exactly what their role was, they had really obviously defined team pressing triggers...they just looked lightyears ahead of us tactically, despite not having as much individual talent as we do.
I just wondered as you used SAF getting coaches in for different roles and used it against Ole. I agree Sir Alex changed with the times and I agree we’re in different times now.
Yes I know roughly but I would be interested in seeing the ins and outs in more detail of a few of the first team coaches to see where they all originally came from
You are right in that it wasn't in the same time frame as Ole, thats for sure. Times and expectations were very different then though.
We do have some examples eg. Queiroz and Rene etc.
Contrary to popular belief, I would be so open to give Ole more time if he was taking initiative with his coaching staff. I haven't wanted a manager to work as much as I do with him. At the moment, it just feels like nothing has changed whether thats the style of football or coaching staff since he has joined
I wouldn’t necessarily call McT, Matic and James individual talent. Plus Greenwood is a teenager and struggling this season. So it was just Martial for one half and Bruno in terms of attacking quality. I don’t know Milan’s players good enough to judge how they compare to McT, Matic or James. I only know that they were missing players themselves.
We didn’t play well but the last weeks have shown that we desperately need more first team players - a couple of more players of Bruno/Rashford quality.
Agree with all this post. I’d love Ole to succeed and maybe getting a fancy foreign number 2 in could freshen things up from McKenna
Not a fan (as many can attest) and I don't think he's right for the job but as a manager he's right. I don't trust him to push for qualified coaches though which will be our downfall and will complete the Wengerisation of Manchester United.
I think this is the issue for most of the people who think Ole is not good enough. It is his coaching staff and the buck stops with him. If he had got top quality coaches then for sure we will play much better football. We may not win the PL but our football would be better for sure. That would be progress. Now it is not. I do not think most people here have an issue with Ole being the manager if he can get better coaching out of the players.
This is basically it. This idea that United fans hate some bloke who won us a CL with a dramatic late goal is ridiculous to me.
Simply put though, as a manager, our performances are dependant on him. If he can't coach to the players to the required standard, his job is to ensure he hires the correct support staff to ensure the team is evolving towards some progressive, sustainable football.
If not, as with any role, he should be let go of in favour of other managers who have already proven they can do so, some even with lesser resources
Maybe because the pressing is done individually, the opposite to what AC Milan did all over the match, they pressed as a team.
When you see one player pressing and the others looking maybe it's not because they are bad at defending.
It might be something related with what they do on their training sessions. Or what they are aked to do. Or not.
Or maybe it was a one day off. Who knows.
Thanks man and thanks to all others that liked and appreciated the first post. Was heartwarming to seeWelcome @NZT-One, you look like a great addition to the forum
About the match (had to wait until now to be able to post again ^^) and its lessons in regards to the matter of this thread:
For some reason I am not as downed as after some of the other performances. In the end this is AC Milan who sits in 2nd in the Italian league, whose players aren't bad and they seemed to be very well up for it. I liked managers bold move to introduce Diallo for 45min (even though he was so and so), I was a bit surprised to see so many changes being made later in one instance and the switch to a different formation. Ole might has overdone it a bit there, shaking it up too much too fast. Lets hope it will work as a lesson, I prefer that to not acting at all and just not do anything at all.
At the end of the day, we created some stuff today and missed two absolute sitters. Defensively we contained Milan quite well so I wouldn't single out the manager after todays match. I can follow the train of thought though that leads to the more stricter criticism around here. Also I agree on the notion, that tonights game was a good example how a group of players can really benefit from well trained moves. It was great to see, how the Milan offense moved and worked the ball. I think, we gave them some space intentionally due to our goal advantage but nevertheless, they made us really work for it. Which in its core is all I ask for for our team as well.
I also liked Milan today, for their lineup they played some good football. Credit to them. The rematch will be a real test and a possibility to learn more about our team (players and managers) about their current standing.
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Good to see you two as (right now-)representatives finding common ground after all. Even after the game tonight, having witnessed this thread for some time now, I think thats very cool.
On another note: I think, maybe the closeness of most of the current team to SAF and his methods might be part of the issue here. I feel, what Ole tries to achieve is getting the right players in so they can develope the understanding between each other themselves to flourish naturally. Without needing interference by the manager or some sort of instructions. This is very much the exact approach SAF had and he used to some success.
I think, "back in the days" that was more ore less what separated the great managers from the not so great ones: the ability to judge if a player is right for the team and what exactly is the teams need. This of course still applies until today, I often think of Real Madrid for some reason because I never have the feeling, that they are particularly well drilled but as the core of the team plays together for so long, they benefit from the same effects as a byproduct that a very systematic coaching approach would try to deploy.
In current times I think managers became more proactive - probably out of necessity: they tried to maximize the output from a squad even though they know they do not have the well assembled orchestra they would dream to have. This might have led to the focus on systems and therefor also the bigger awareness of such things in public. And this, to close the bow, leads us here together, knowing or alt least feeling that there are people in the business who are able to make teams become more than the sum of their individuals. Lets hope, that the new structure is able to adjust our outlook on things - I am sure, this would be very easy to sell to Woodward and the Glazers I mean, maximizing Return of Investment will be a familiar concept after all.
I think the spine of the team SAF got or brought together was from other clubs. They were not young players. Now we can talk about the class of 92. But they were introduced into a team that was already successful and had a style of playing. Roy Keane always said it was control, pass and move. That was the basics of the team. SAF was a lot more tactical than most people think. In today's football you cannot simply wing it. It is too tactical and players need to be more aware of that.
I would say that Milan corner was worked in training. At this level these players should be able to control and pass and move. Maybe not under extreme pressure but we cannot control with no pressure and our passing is horrible most of the time.
One thing I have also noticed is now that our players usually wait for the ball to come to them. I think this is bad basics. (1) It gives time for the opposing player to close down.(2) It also gives our player less time to control the ball and to bring it under control. I do not think why we are so poor in the basics of football?
Pattern of our attack in nutshell. CB or DM pass to fullbacks. Fullbacks make a run, pass to our wingers who somehow are so far wide on the pitch like the 18 yard box is lava. Either they dribble and lose the ball, or pass back to our midfielders or fb because they are too far from the goal. Rinse and repeat.
Accurate
Might as well buy Bas Dost and pump cross like proper brexit fc
But on a positive note, only about the 21st truly awful performance of the season so far.
When will our coaches wake up to just how bad we are on the ball when the other team is well drilled and we have to show that ability to break a team down, something simply has to be done about this in the summer and if it means we have to neglect either CB/RW to address the situation properly then so be it
I don't really buy into him being a defensive manager. How many other teams play with a No.10 like we do? Bruno plays so high up sonetimes it's almost like playing two centre forwards. That's not the trait of a defensive manager. We don't use a DM either like most teams. The wide players stay wide, we don't pack the middle. Shaw gets forward as much as any fullback. He might have defensive moments, most managers do, it's not his philosophy though.
The big issue is our passing ability. I don't think we choose to sit back, we just move it so slowly and give it away so often that's it's really difficult to get the team up the pitch and keep them there. The moment we do progress forward, get the CB's up, somebody gives it away cheeply. Win the ball back and repeat.
Who's responsible for the poor passing? I'd put it on the players, I don't think a change of manager improves their choice of pass or quality.
However I think you could argue we don't create enough angles, move enough to give options etc, which would be on the manager. I'm not a fan of "fluid" systems either, players constantly switching around. Just pick players in their best positions, where they can give the best of their talent and allow repeatable patterns of play to develop.
The big issue is our passing ability. I don't think we choose to sit back, we just move it so slowly and give it away so often that's it's really difficult to get the team up the pitch and keep them there. The moment we do progress forward, get the CB's up, somebody gives it away cheeply. Win the ball back and repeat.
Who's responsible for the poor passing? I'd put it on the players, I don't think a change of manager improves their choice of pass or quality.
However I think you could argue we don't create enough angles, move enough to give options etc, which would be on the manager. I'm not a fan of "fluid" systems either, players constantly switching around. Just pick players in their best positions, where they can give the best of their talent and allow repeatable patterns of play to develop.
The most disappointing part in my opinion is, 3 years in, just how clueless and toothless we look once we're unable to hurt teams on the break. At those moments we look like a bunch of random people being picked from the street for a Sunday friendly.
Because they're being coached by John Malkovich, whilst we've got Andy Serkis.
Its clear that we play very well but only against a specific way that teams set up against us, if teams sit in deep and compact then we are clueless, its been this way for ages, I'm not sure the coaching staff have what it takes to coach a pattern of play to counter this setup, as I have seen zero improvement at all against teams that play this way.