I tend to agree with this. Firstly, I doubt Ole would have had VdB shoven down his throat. It was said many times that no player leaves or joins the team without his approval. Secondly, it looks to me that Pogba was hell bent on leaving last summer, so VdB could have been bought as a precaution to make sure that we are ready for Paul's departure. Also gives a message to Raiola that the Club will not take their pants off and bend over just to keep his client. Thirdly, we could indeed change our playing style from next season. Alternatively, it is all just wishful thinking on my part and we bought wrong player (Kagawa, Miki, Lukaku) yet again.
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Yeah agree with that and I don't think it's hindsight either. At the time it seemed a slightly unnecessary signing. Bruno rarely injured and when he is Pogba can just be pushed further up(which suits him IMO).
I'm hoping it's been a season for him to add some bulk and become an option for CM. I don't think Ole believes he has the physicality for that role yet.
When I look at Oles time here it's sometimes easy to forget that he has been a manager that changed his formation quite a lot during his time here nearer to the start of his career.
Off the top of my head I've seen the 352, 442 diamond, 4231 and the 4222. This was arguably when Matic was a season younger.
The only one I want to see a more of is the 433 and I'm hoping he hasn't used it because he feels he needs that CDM who can control his space. As others have said it should allow us to be a less counter attacking team and more a team with some possesion & creativity. This is where I see Rice fitting in.
I'm also a fan that believes we are the outright favourites for Haaland aswell. The manager, the league, the media, the straight up amount the club wants him and needs him etc makes me feel quite positive about the likelihood of this happening.
Whilst Haaland is perfect in playing counterattacking football is that how we are going to get the best of a mix of Haaland and players like Rashford, Amad and Greenwood by playing Mctomminay and Fred as our main partnership for a whole season? I value McFred more than alot of fans but they should be valued as a speciality against the big teams than our seasonal starting partnership.
That single CDM who can do his thing ( a player that we currently use 2 players for) allows us to play Pogba with Bruno. Pogba showed a bit this year that he can be attacking and score good goals further up the pitch. Anyone who knows VDB knows that he does the same thing. So does Bruno. The goals and creativity by multiple players with the freedom to be near a new number 9 like Haaland is how I see us next season.
A CDM is probably why Ole had called VDB a next season player.
He is definitely a player who hides, and at Ajax he became very unhappy quickly when he wasn't a starter. I wouldn't be surprised if he is not willing to take the challenge and will push for a move, for now he needs to even grow into becoming a decent squad option which he isn't. His stint so far has been very disappointing but I still have faith that he can turn that around.
Fed up with players who are moaning.
He showed nothing so far, so nothing to cry about. If je can't fight for his place je is not right for here or any big club.
He showed nothing so far, so nothing to cry about. If je can't fight for his place je is not right for here or any big club.
This exactly, prove you deserve to start and if not we'll sell you. Not that I believe he is moaning, that'll mostly be media lies.
English media and tabloids are a hornets' nest for me. Anyone can post a reliable source that he's pushing for a move or is it just toilet paper copying each other?
Sadly, I think he'll leave this summer and can't really blame him.
He's obviously incredibly talented and in the right setup will absolutely thrive.
Host of reasons as to why it hasn't worked out, but I bet him joining us during a summer where we essentially had no pre-season to integrate him into the squad/style of play has had a huge impact.
He's obviously incredibly talented and in the right setup will absolutely thrive.
Host of reasons as to why it hasn't worked out, but I bet him joining us during a summer where we essentially had no pre-season to integrate him into the squad/style of play has had a huge impact.
There's a definite cult following developing around this guy at the moment, which I don't totally subscribe to. Good players in one environment can be poor in another, that's part of football. Just because he was good at Ajax doesn't mean that he's fundamentally amazing and therefore its our fault he isn't playing well here. However I do think that Ole has handled his transition quite badly. Which is actually unusual, knowing when to bring in and to drop players has been a real strength for Ole so far (see James, Lukaku, Pogba etc).
He wanted to give VDB enough time to adapt to English football, fine, but actually the early part of the season is the best time to bring players in. There's lost of lower key matches and not as much is riding on the league games. As the season goes on the stakes get higher and higher and its gets harder to accommodate someone who is tentative and playing below their best. Certainly from this point in the season its hard to see where VDB gets games. All the cup games matter from now on and top 4 won't be secured until a game or two from the end at the very most. Maybe he gets a game or two in a couple of dead rubbers in the league? Hardly ideal.
I think VDB has to take responsibility for his own form. He could have forced his way into the team with good performances after all. But I definitely think that Ole missed the window for giving him more games in the first third of the season.
He wanted to give VDB enough time to adapt to English football, fine, but actually the early part of the season is the best time to bring players in. There's lost of lower key matches and not as much is riding on the league games. As the season goes on the stakes get higher and higher and its gets harder to accommodate someone who is tentative and playing below their best. Certainly from this point in the season its hard to see where VDB gets games. All the cup games matter from now on and top 4 won't be secured until a game or two from the end at the very most. Maybe he gets a game or two in a couple of dead rubbers in the league? Hardly ideal.
I think VDB has to take responsibility for his own form. He could have forced his way into the team with good performances after all. But I definitely think that Ole missed the window for giving him more games in the first third of the season.
So far we hsve mostly tried him as a direct replacemebt for bruno, he also played left wing once which was bizarre. He clearly isnt suited to playing the same role as bruno and would seen best suited to a 433 which we dont play. I would like to see him given games in a deeper midfield role although not certain he would be suited to that
It all seems a bit strange really
Get rid if you can get a decent price for him
I think he will ask for a transfer at end of season and we would get all our money back for him.
Style of football we play is just wrong for him. At City he'd fit in better. Definitely spain would suit him. I don't want to write him off just yet. Ole signed off on the transfer (as he has a veto for first team players, maybe reluctantly?), I'm not sure what the plan was. Maybe it simply was we need a backup for Bruno (different skillsets of course), but then VDB wouldnt have signed if that was the case.
Style of football we play is just wrong for him. At City he'd fit in better. Definitely spain would suit him. I don't want to write him off just yet. Ole signed off on the transfer (as he has a veto for first team players, maybe reluctantly?), I'm not sure what the plan was. Maybe it simply was we need a backup for Bruno (different skillsets of course), but then VDB wouldnt have signed if that was the case.
RedCafe posters giving up on a player after a few months shocker
He'll come good
He'll come good
Stop this thinking thing
Best case we lose 10 million. He wasn't able to make the first team at this level, that drives his value down. He's more of a gamble for clubs now that he "failed" at Utd. We could of course hold him to his contract and not sell, but that's very risky.
It’s really not obvious to me. Veron and Berbatov, even Kagawa and Mkhitaryen to a lesser degree, would be examples of incredibly talented players who, for various reasons, never really fitted in at United but thrived elsewhere. This player hasn’t really showcased a single attribute at United where I’d look at him and think “if only we could untap that potential we’d have a really valuable player on our hands.”
Hes not a gamble. Anyone looking from outside in, will realise the situation that he hasnt been given enough games and game time. He's still a very good player who still is playing well for Holland. If he has a good Euros then his price will go up maybe beyond what we paid. Getting £40mil back maybe a season loan with obligation to buy isnt unrealistic.Stop this thinking thing
Best case we lose 10 million. He wasn't able to make the first team at this level, that drives his value down. He's more of a gamble for clubs now that he "failed" at Utd. We could of course hold him to his contract and not sell, but that's very risky.
If he was bought to replace Pogba (different skillset i know), then Utd would have to go buy another CM who can provide the long passes Pogba can for quick transitions as there isnt anyone else who can (excluding Bruno here).
Hes a tiki-taka player. Slow-slow-fast-goal. Think he'd be excellent in spain. Interested to see him for Holland in the euros. Hope he has an amazing tournament
Basing this more on the last 3 or so seasons following Ajax in the CL. No doubt about it, he absolutely excelled at the highest level in a setup he was well suited for. Would do well at a club like Barca or City.
I have never subscribed to the idea it's somehow the club or Ole's fault, or that he was not bought with Ole's blessing. Neither seems to be logical.
The far simpler explanation is that he was identified by our recruitment team and Ole signed it off as we have been given every indication that is the system in place. Why is a player not performing and being dropped necessarily indicating this isn't the case? The alternative of playing an underperformer just because he was bought is lacking any sense so I find it strange to try to read something into the situation that just isn't supported. Ultimately we cannot know for sure.
As for his performances, he's been tried in a few roles. It's not just that he hasn't performed, I think it's the way in which he has gone about it. They have been very timid showings. There has been very little to grasp onto as indicative of the fact Ole should perservere, that's the issue. It's not as if he's been largely poor but has had moments of real quality. The main thing that sticks with you is him getting into a position, dawdling on the ball, turning backwards, passing sideways.
As for reasons it's hard to fully identify. Suited to that Ajax side - poorly scouted? Adaptation to the league? Physically lacking? Lack of confidence/unsuitable personality for this club? Position (hard to believe, our other midfielders seem to perform relative to their ability)? There's so many potential reasons, you would hope some of this is being identified and worked on behind the scenes.
The far simpler explanation is that he was identified by our recruitment team and Ole signed it off as we have been given every indication that is the system in place. Why is a player not performing and being dropped necessarily indicating this isn't the case? The alternative of playing an underperformer just because he was bought is lacking any sense so I find it strange to try to read something into the situation that just isn't supported. Ultimately we cannot know for sure.
As for his performances, he's been tried in a few roles. It's not just that he hasn't performed, I think it's the way in which he has gone about it. They have been very timid showings. There has been very little to grasp onto as indicative of the fact Ole should perservere, that's the issue. It's not as if he's been largely poor but has had moments of real quality. The main thing that sticks with you is him getting into a position, dawdling on the ball, turning backwards, passing sideways.
As for reasons it's hard to fully identify. Suited to that Ajax side - poorly scouted? Adaptation to the league? Physically lacking? Lack of confidence/unsuitable personality for this club? Position (hard to believe, our other midfielders seem to perform relative to their ability)? There's so many potential reasons, you would hope some of this is being identified and worked on behind the scenes.
Whilst some say that Van De Beek has not impressed during his chances - I believe he has been played like a jack of all trades so far.
I've seen him at CDM, CM, LAM and even mid games at RAM.
Either this is him being slowly introduced or unfortunately Ole doesnt know how to use him.
I hope he gets that ability to really play that shadow striker way that made his name in the CL vs some big teams.
I've seen him at CDM, CM, LAM and even mid games at RAM.
Either this is him being slowly introduced or unfortunately Ole doesnt know how to use him.
I hope he gets that ability to really play that shadow striker way that made his name in the CL vs some big teams.
It is also interesting to note that Donny van de Beek has been pretty much useless for the Dutch NT as well, be it as a starter or as a substitute. I can't recall any good game from him and he hides there as well, causing most Dutch NT fans wanting for him not even to be called up. He is most often played as a number 10 for the Dutch NT, and struggles to get himself involved. I can see his place going to Ryan Gravenberch / Marten de Roon. It is not fully Ole's fault, he might be a player that just fits a certain style of play.
Who's fault is it then if we have signed a player that doesnt fit the style of play the team adopts?
He’s a very technical player, one touch, good in small spaces. Not passionate & hard working enough for our manager unfortunately.
I'd love for you to be right, but I think it's wishful thinking. We will not be in a good position to negotiate if he's determined to leave in this market.
He's lucky if he makes the bench for the Euros. Dutch NT rarely give call ups to players that aren't starters, although F. De Boer seems to rate him and included him in his pre-selection, it could be for motivational reasons. Wijnaldum and F. De Jong are deservedly ahead in the pecking order and it makes more sense to pair them with a DM like De Roon, Klaassen or Blind. Then there's some big talents like Gravenberch and Koopmeiners that play every week, the latter of which is a left-footed free-kick and penalty specialist that has a chance to prove himself in the upcoming under-21 euros.
In short, he will need to impress at Utd, if he is to even make the squad for the euros.
He's always been passionate and hard working throughout his career. It dipped after he became a 2 min sub.
You are clearly not an Ajax fan. Spreading lies and stuff. Most Dutch NT fans want him to play ahead of De Roon and not that shouldn't be called up. Same with your earlier post about him being benched at Ajax and whining about it while not mentioning that everbody(and i mean EVERYBODY, fans & media) was baffled that he was benched only because Ten Hag has a weird thing that he wants to reinvent the wheel every season just to see it fail after a month or two and return to the usual tactic(including VDB and Neres, who also was benched for no reason).
Ronald de Boer, who is associated with «Players United Managment» like Donny, says that he has spoken to the club management in Ajax who says Donny van de Beek has not asked for any talks with the old club at all.
«Donny's only focus is to come back after the ankle injury, and it is simply not true that he has asked to be sold, says De Boer to talkSPORT»
«It is Donny who has to settle the status and decide where his future lies, but he has no plans to leave. The agent has told me that he is very satisfied with being at United and that he feels valued for the way the club treats him, says De Boer»
«Only Bruno Fernandes excelled from day one. The usual thing is that you need time to adapt to the Premier League. It is a completely different league with tougher physical requirements than the Eredivisie, says De Boer»
«Donny's only focus is to come back after the ankle injury, and it is simply not true that he has asked to be sold, says De Boer to talkSPORT»
«It is Donny who has to settle the status and decide where his future lies, but he has no plans to leave. The agent has told me that he is very satisfied with being at United and that he feels valued for the way the club treats him, says De Boer»
«Only Bruno Fernandes excelled from day one. The usual thing is that you need time to adapt to the Premier League. It is a completely different league with tougher physical requirements than the Eredivisie, says De Boer»
Some players just don't adapt to the Premier League and either you sink or swim. It has nothing to do with the system. Wasn't Nabi Keita even more hyped and costly than VDB but never adapted despite many saying he was perfect for Klopp's system.
Have to agree the Ajax tag is peculiar. Not because he isn't fawning over VDB, but because Ajax has a lot of depth in their squad and seeing good players on the bench from time to time is very normal for them. He wasn't on fire for Holland but he played well. I think most people remember that game vs England where the English backline blundered their lead away. He had some chances in that game and scored 2 goals in the last 2 international breaks. Against Italy and Spain, not some lightweights.
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Where is this obvious incredible talent?
He's better than what he's shown with us so far, but he's done nothing in his career to warrant the way some people talk about him. He was good but not one of the stand-out players for Ajax when they had their great team, he struggles to start consistently for his national team, and so far he's had 4 or 5 decent games for us and has been poor the rest of the time.
I do hope he does a Fred/Lindelof and comes back and looks an entirely different player in his second season, but I'd be lying if I said I was confident.
I don't really know. Donny is a strange one as he was a different player in the academy, as in the 1st team. It might be partially Ole's fault, maybe our football/technical directors didn't do a good job. I'd say he has been largely the same for the Dutch NT, as for United. But I hadn't envisioned him struggling like this, but I'm no full scout tbh.
Firstly, I think your approach is very unneccesary. We can disagree in a respectable manner.
Marten de Roon is not really a liked player as he's defensive and quite poor on the poor, Donny got the chance shortly after but just didn't impress. He scored his first 2 goals (2 goals and 1 assists in 17 matches in total, lots of subs, but quite poor for an attacking midfielder of his type). Despite his 2 goals, the next international break he was on the bench again precisely because he failed to impact the play. He is a very good finisher around the box, and a smart player, but it is not enough and I would be incredibly surprised if he is a starter for Holland during the Euro's.
VoetbalZone is the biggest general football site/forum in the Netherlands, if you read the pages/articles around the Dutch NT, you can see how many people don't even want Donny to be called up as they don't see the point. I am not saying this is the be all an end all, but it is the best representation of how Donny is regarded among the Dutch football fans. Article
Also, I just don't agree with you that everybody was baffled that he was benched. We had Ziyech, Neres, Tadic, Dolberg, Donny for 4 positions. Donny had poor form where he wasn't producing (when played as a 10, Donny must produce because of the type of player he is). He eventually fought for his place, got his place back and had a fantastic season so credit to him.
I wasn't surprised by Donny being on the bench, it was about him and his entourage when he was benched for a short while and the noises that came from them that were not appreciated. Erik Ten Hag even reacted to it, this was in Oktober 2018. Art 1 Art 2
2 goals in the last 2 international breaks, he scored 2 well taken goals but also failed to impact plays. I remember many complaints on the lack of #passes he had as a number 10, hinting at his "hiding", which many Man United fans are aware of by now. I wish I could find the data. He got benched by Davy Klaassen after these 2 goals btw.
I got some statistics for him via Sofascore, not for the Spain match unfortunately.
14 Oct - Italy | Donny scored, but had 0 key passes and only 24 completed passes in 90 minutes.
15 Nov - Bosnia | Came on, 26 minutes, 0 key passes
18 Nov - Poland | 4 passes in 20 minutes, 0 key passes
4 Sep - Poland | 16 minute cameo, 0 key passes
7 Sep - Italy | Started, 57 minutes, 0 key passes and completed 5 out of 6 passes (worst one)
Sorry I can't get the others, and I am not trying to say we live and die by key passes or completed passes but it is telling of how involved he gets when he plays, which is barely. He is never bad, he is all-round good and has a good base level. But keeps it incredibly safe, never creates anythings and is very little involved.
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@AjaxCunian interesting to hear your views. Thanks.
How do you see things working out at United for DvB?
How do you see things working out at United for DvB?
Thought he played really well as a box to box when we played a diamond Vs Southampton away.
Would like to see him play box to box in our 4231 against bottom half sides.
Unfortunate that he was injured at the same time as Pogba.
Would like to see him play box to box in our 4231 against bottom half sides.
Unfortunate that he was injured at the same time as Pogba.
I think he shouldn't focus on the #10 role. He could work as a 10 at Bayern, Ajax, City very attacking teams with lots of players on the opponent's half where he would make use of his positional awareness and quick link-up play, get into positions to score. But he is not a no 10 of the mold of Bruno, creating chances with dribbles, passes, shots, through balls etc, that isn't Donny (anymore). I believe he could work as an 8, in a 433. Box to box, all round, but Ole doesn't seem to play (him) this way. So we'll see if he can adapt, if not, I am expecting more of the same. Struggling to impact the game.
Donny van de Beek was the 16th most expensive signing in the top 5 European Leagues this season. Here's how the top 15 have performed (not arranged by price):
Havertz x - 1173 PL mins 1 goal + 2 assists in PL
Werner x - 2046 PL mins 5 goals + 5 assists in PL
Sane success - 1312 Bundesliga mins 4 goals + 8 assists in Bundesliga
Arthur x - 863 Serie A mins
Pjanic x - 591 La Liga mins
Hakimi success - 1858 Serie A mins 6 goals + 4 assists in Serie A, Inter currently top
Partey x - 885 PL mins, team won 4 drawn 2 lost 5 of PL games he started
Icardi ? - 929 Ligue 1 mins 5 goals + 3 assists in Ligue 1
Osimhen x - 757 Serie A mins 3 goals + 1 assist in Serie A
Fabio Silva x - 805 PL mins 2 goals including one penalty, early days, very young
Chilwell success - 1764 PL mins 2 goals + 4 assists
Dias success - 2398 PL mins, City's defence performing well
Ake x - 468 PL mins
Jota success - 697 PL mins 6 goals in PL
Ziyech just about a success - 865 PL mins 1 goal + 3 assists in PL
So I've got 8 players who have had a disappointing start at their new club so far, not sure about Icardi, 6 successes including one that just about sneaks into that category. Donny van de Beek's 292 PL mins does look very low relative to the playing time given to the top 15 priced signings. By the end of next season, I imagine the list of successes and failures will probably look different.
(all playing time stats from Understat, top 15 most expensive signings from Transfermarkt)
Havertz x - 1173 PL mins 1 goal + 2 assists in PL
Werner x - 2046 PL mins 5 goals + 5 assists in PL
Sane success - 1312 Bundesliga mins 4 goals + 8 assists in Bundesliga
Arthur x - 863 Serie A mins
Pjanic x - 591 La Liga mins
Hakimi success - 1858 Serie A mins 6 goals + 4 assists in Serie A, Inter currently top
Partey x - 885 PL mins, team won 4 drawn 2 lost 5 of PL games he started
Icardi ? - 929 Ligue 1 mins 5 goals + 3 assists in Ligue 1
Osimhen x - 757 Serie A mins 3 goals + 1 assist in Serie A
Fabio Silva x - 805 PL mins 2 goals including one penalty, early days, very young
Chilwell success - 1764 PL mins 2 goals + 4 assists
Dias success - 2398 PL mins, City's defence performing well
Ake x - 468 PL mins
Jota success - 697 PL mins 6 goals in PL
Ziyech just about a success - 865 PL mins 1 goal + 3 assists in PL
So I've got 8 players who have had a disappointing start at their new club so far, not sure about Icardi, 6 successes including one that just about sneaks into that category. Donny van de Beek's 292 PL mins does look very low relative to the playing time given to the top 15 priced signings. By the end of next season, I imagine the list of successes and failures will probably look different.
(all playing time stats from Understat, top 15 most expensive signings from Transfermarkt)
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Well then how can anyone have complaints over Donny not starting? Who's position will he take?
There's suggestions to line-ups and formations that have both VDB and Bruno every other 2 pages in this thread. How about you read 20 posts before writing something stupid again?
I don't care. I didnt ask about other, I asked you.
Donny is not anyway near Bruno standard so doesnt get infront of him. The games he has played instead of Bruno have shown that.
Donny is not anywhere near good enough defensively compared to Fred/ McTominay so cannot play in the double pivot.
Donny has no passing range so cannot even play instead of Pogba in double pivot.
Donny has no pace or ability to beat a man so he cannot play the wing.
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