Set pieces issue, who's to blame? the manager, coaching staff or the players?

[SAFMUTD]

The thread literally has "who's to blame?" in the title. That's not a discussion, it's a blatant attempt to start a negative witch hunt against the management and coaching staff.

We're not good at set pieces because we opted to buy players that aren't strong in the traits required for set pieces. We spent our time on the training ground focusing on improving our play on the pitch, which succeeded because we've managed to win so many points from losing positions.

They way you've worded your op you would think we didn't finished 2nd, we didn't go unbeaten away from home, and we didn't get to a semi final and a final. Beaten by the two winners of those competitions by the way. Not a bad effort to only be beaten by the winners of the competitions.

Say what you want, it's clear you have some sort of agenda against the management and coaching staff.

Well I can change it to "who's responsable" or how do you propose I do it so it doesn't feel like an attack?

Also it's not a thing about us not being good at set pieces, we weren't good before, we are terrible now. Bottom of the table terrible, for a team that's on top 4 that surely should ring the alarms.

About all the other stuff I don't see how that is valid. "We spent a lot of time training other things so we don't have time for set pieces" really? Are we going for that?

Also if you read the OP I only talk about set pieces which is what the thread is about, we could have won the league, the UCL, and still wouldn't change the fact that we are terrible at set pieces.

 

[Zen86]

The issue at United is that our back 5 only has one excellent aerial presence (Maguire) and one okay aerial presence (Shaw). Everyone else is either poor (De Gea and Lindelof) or abysmal (AWB). McTominay and Pogba do a decent job helping out, but it's obviously not enough.

This is basically the problem in a nutshell. You can overthink things as much as you want and blame coaching, tactics etc, but if your players mostly aren’t very good in the air you’re going to struggle.

 

[SAFMUTD]

@SAFMUTD

Btw, where did you find the stats? I find it crazy that Chelsea scored 22 goals on freekicks and corners in the PL in 2016-17.

I'm also curious about what counts as a set piece goal. If the ball is cleared out of the box and someone scores on the second attempt(this time no longer from a set piece), does that count? How many touches, dribbles, blocks and passes are allowed to happen before it stops being a goal from a set piece?

It's all on whoscored. You can look it up at here: https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Teams/15/Show/England-Chelsea

Im not sure if a goal derivated from a set pieces but no directly for it is counted as one. I guess it should but I don't know if its counted that way.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

The decision to replace Smalling in the team with Lindelof of all people still to this day doesn't compute with me. Smalling is better at everything maybe other than distribution.

Smalling would have chipped in with more goals, made sure we conceded far less than we have done and also is quick enough to cover for Maguire.

 

[golden_blunder]

Martial is a better header of the ball than Rashford for one. Lindelof is definitely better than Dan james as well. I'd push most up one point and a couple up two points

I don’t think I’ve seen any evidence of that

 

[golden_blunder]

Martial is a better header of the ball than Rashford for one. Lindelof is definitely better than Dan james as well. I'd push most up one point and a couple up two points

I actually had intended to put a 4 for James. That’s a typo

 

[Desert Eagle]

I don’t think I’ve seen any evidence of that

He has double the amount of headed goals over their career. 8-4 . Nothing to write home about I agree.

That is being very kind. One thing you should pay attention to is how many second balls we lose because of poor heading from almost 80 % of our team.

This includes Maguire too, numerous occasions on a corner the ball is headed straight to an opponent. Numerous times opposition goal kicks long ball ends up with their CDM because our CDM, CB cannot head the ball to a player in the same shirt. Yes, they may win headers but none of them go where intended. AWB is probably a 3 at heading too, Martial is better than Rashford I agree but nowhere near a 6.

I agree maybe I'm being a little kind. I do think we could improve from an individual stand point with de gea, awb and lindelof all upgradable. However while I started out thinking it was about 50/50 players/ coaching, the arguments in this thread have swayed me to about 65/35 with coaching taking the blame. You can coach good set piece defending. A lot of it is knowing what the opposition wants to try against you. Knowing where exactly the danger zone between the keeper and defense is, attacking the ball etc

 

[arnie_ni]

Stupid zonal marking. Coaching issue. Man up and mark someone, stay tight.

Also, Smalling for all the criticism he took was a beast in the air.

 

[romufc]

He has double the amount of headed goals over their career. 8-4 . Nothing to write home about I agree.


I agree maybe I'm being a little kind. I do think we could improve from an individual stand point with de gea, awb and lindelof all upgradable. However while I started out thinking it was about 50/50 players/ coaching, the arguments in this thread have swayed me to about 65/35 with coaching taking the blame. You can coach good set piece defending. A lot of it is knowing what the opposition wants to try against you. Knowing where exactly the danger zone between the keeper and defense is, attacking the ball etc

Yep, the coaches need to work with the players when it comes to heading. I mean we very often struggle with high ball situations, either they get under it, they head it straight into the air with no direction, its very schoolboy.

I have seen with smaller players win headers, its not hard if you are coached to dot it. How often has AWB been exposed to a cross ?

How often does Lindelof and Maguire misjudge balls into the box?

Also, how many headed goals do we score? not that many, compare that to players like Firminho, Mane.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Ability in the air - defensively

AWB - 4 (out of 10)
Maguire - 9
Lindelof - 5
Shaw - 6
Fred - 4
McTominay - 7
Pogba - 8
Bruno - 6
Bailly - 7 (on a good day, 2 on a bad)
Axel - 5
James - 4
Rashford - 5
Greenwood - 5
Martial - 5
Cavani - 8
Matic - 6
Mata - 4
Jones - 7

harsh on anyone?

Well I agree we don't have anyone specially powerful in the air besides Maguire, but applying the same logic I don't think other teams would grade higher. I don't think it's as simple as to "our players are bad in the air" are really our players bottom table quality at this?

City just received 3 goals from set pieces this past season. Are their players specially great in the air? I mean we are talking about a team that plays with Zinchenko, Fernandinho, Gundogan, Foden, Sterling, KDB, etc who don't strike me as particularly good at it.

I mean @TheMagicFoolBus just cited a really good example about how Chelsea improved massively in this regard this season. A new coach and a better keeper. They didn't need to change their whole squad.

I do think De Gea is specially terrible a set pieces and it's costing us the fact that he gets rooted to his line. But Henderson is fine and yet he still conceded with him on goal.

Also attacking wise I mean it's getting repetitive it seems we always aim for Maguire, every single time. Surely teams have worked this out and double marked him.

 

[SAFMUTD]

This is basically the problem in a nutshell. You can overthink things as much as you want and blame coaching, tactics etc, but if your players mostly aren’t very good in the air you’re going to struggle.

Ok while I don't agree, let's give it that at defending set pieces. Are our players equally bad at attacking set pieces? Because we are really bad as well at those.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I think its a combination of coaching and the players. I hate to say it but the one constant in that run of shite is de gea. As for the attacking side cavani, mctom and pogba are the only three who can head the ball.well. It needs correcting fast seeing as we've been near the bottom of the table for two years now and were mid table before that.

Yes, there isn't enough chatter in our back line, or in the team for that matter. De Gea has never been a vocal keeper. Smalling at least tried to organize (I seem to remember him pointing and shouting a fair bit). Maguire is very quiet back there. A back line needs someone directing it.

We gave up a high percentage of goals from corners and free kicks last season but in general these scenarios don't account for more than 10% of all goals scored so it's maybe not as big an issue as some are making it out to be.

It's an obvious area for improvement though, so getting better at it would have a lot of benefit on our results.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Yes, there isn't enough chatter in our back line, or in the team for that matter. De Gea has never been a vocal keeper. Smalling at least tried to organize (I seem to remember him pointing and shouting a fair bit). Maguire is very quiet back there. A back line needs someone directing it.

We gave up a high percentage of goals from corners and free kicks last season but in general these scenarios don't account for more than 10% of all goals scored so it's maybe not as big an issue as some are making it out to be.

It's an obvious area for improvement though, so getting better at it would have a lot of benefit on our results.

Agreed Doc. The keeper also has the best view from those long floaters and communication is vitally important. This is all just on the defensive side too. Martial , Rashford and Greenwood can and should get better at adding that to their game. Movement, Timing and bravery, something El Matador could teach them.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Ability in the air - defensively

AWB - 4 (out of 10)
Maguire - 9
Lindelof - 5 popular to criticise but he’s not that bad at heading = 6/7
Shaw - 6
Fred - 4
McTominay - 7
Pogba - 8 = 7
Bruno - 6 pretty weak defensively, okay on attack = 5
Bailly - 7 (on a good day, 2 on a bad)
Axel - 5
James - 4
Rashford - 5 worst header of the ball in the squad = 2
Greenwood - 5 = 4
Martial - 5 actually pretty strong at near post (except PSG game) = 6
Cavani - 8
Matic - 6 he’s one of the better ones = 8
Mata - 4
Jones - 7

harsh on anyone?

I think even with those changes it’s clear to see that this is as much a personnel issue as a coaching issue. You need at least a couple of dominant headers in a side. Maguire fills some gaps but he can’t do it alone. Even Vidic would struggle to cover this whole team and he’s a 10/10 in the air.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Yes, there isn't enough chatter in our back line, or in the team for that matter. De Gea has never been a vocal keeper. Smalling at least tried to organize (I seem to remember him pointing and shouting a fair bit). Maguire is very quiet back there. A back line needs someone directing it.

We gave up a high percentage of goals from corners and free kicks last season but in general these scenarios don't account for more than 10% of all goals scored so it's maybe not as big an issue as some are making it out to be.

It's an obvious area for improvement though, so getting better at it would have a lot of benefit on our results.

He really isn’t. I watched a couple of those listen ins and he’s talking constantly back there. Hendo is also much louder than De Gea who I still think is the biggest issue.

 

[golden_blunder]

I think even with those changes it’s clear to see that this is as much a personnel issue as a coaching issue. You need at least a couple of dominant headers in a side. Maguire fills some gaps but he can’t do it alone. Even Vidic would struggle to cover this whole team and he’s a 10/10 in the air.

That’s my point. We can do all the coaching in the world but if you have a squad full of guys who can’t head it’s only a minimal gain

 

[Zen86]

Ok while I don't agree, let's give it that at defending set pieces. Are our players equally bad at attacking set pieces? Because we are really bad as well at those.

Probably yeah. It’s the same problem again in that we don’t really have many players who are decent in the air. Even Maguire who’s aerially dominant has been poor when it comes to attacking headers.

We’ve tried plenty of set routines in the past, set pieces that we’d clearly practiced and rehearsed. It’s obviously an area we’ve worked on in training. But again, if the aerial threat isn’t really there then it’s always going to have limited impact.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

He really isn’t. I watched a couple of those listen ins and he’s talking constantly back there. Hendo is also much louder than De Gea who I still think is the biggest issue.

That's good, maybe it just seems that way. Still, I'd like it to be more apparent and see him be more aggressive in bossing the defence around.

 

[MadMike]

He really isn’t. I watched a couple of those listen ins and he’s talking constantly back there. Hendo is also much louder than De Gea who I still think is the biggest issue.

I thought the same for the longest time, but the problem here is that Hendo did replace De Gea in the league and we were still shipping in goals from set pieces. And our record this season is worse than previous seasons when DDG was the sole GK. So that, in my opinion, clearly debunks DDG being the biggest issue.

Some people put it down to losing Smalling, but then Smalling got replaced by Maguire who arguably is equally good in the air. They both partnered Lindelof, so if Lindelof is the problem why is it getting worse?

For me, this points to a problem with coaching and tactics most likely.

 

[Abraxas]

I think it's a lot to do with the makeup of the side and people shirking responsibility.

We can point to the manager and there is undoubtedly questions to be posed in terms of this zonal system and maybe better covering our inherent deficiencies. However, there are basic actions defensively irrespective of the system or tactics. The tactics do not win the ball with no active participation from the players.

Do the players need to be told everything? Does Maguire need to be told how to track a man, to compete, to time his jump, to want to win the ball? He just does it. I think it says it all that Cavani has come in, clearly does not speak English and therefore would be reasonably expected to have limited understanding of whatever our set piece strategy is, yet defensively he has made more than a few telling interventions. Why? Not through being a colossus or through his incredible understanding of a nuanced approach to defending set pieces, but by competing for the ball and not wanting to concede cheaply.

The problem is in the basics and common sense application. If you don't want to even attempt to win the ball, you want to hide, you lose concentration AND you are aerially inferior then there is a big problem. I don't even think it's the latter, not every side that has an acceptable record is compromised of giants - the defensive side has the advantage if they put up a fight. We must have 6/7 players that fail to do so.

 

[Pickle85]

Could we add a 'The Glazers' option please?!

 

[JG3001]

Better players would no doubt help, but let’s be honest, our players can’t do zonal marking, so why persist with it? Remember Wenger had the Arsenal fans fuming when it was clear the players couldn’t get a handle on it.

Just go man to man, size for size. There should be much less confusion then.

 

[Sylar]

Coaching as it happens no matter what player we put out

It's the number one thing defensively we need to sort out as it's not unknown to our team with all the stats available. If it's not drastically changed it's then down to the manager as a failure

 

[eire-red]

Interesting that you cite zonal marking as something we need to change but then also point to City's set-piece record despite them being a relatively small team. Don't they set up zonally too?

You could be right, I'm not entirely sure. They do have a good record from set pieces though. I think zonal is only one of the issues we have, and to be honest I think the biggest issue with our zonal set up is organisation.

Most teams set up a hybrid sort of set up, and I think for players like Rashford, Bruno etc who are poor in the air, having them mark an area is fine. But we also have the likes of McTominay and Maguire marking zonally, where they should be straight on the oppositions main aerial threats.

From what I can recall of City, they usually have Dias, Stones, Rodri, Laporte man marking if they're defending set pieces? We seem to set up with the less dominant players failing to block runners around the penalty spot, essentially giving the opposition a free run on our most aerially dominant players. It just ends up in the likes of Maguire being under more pressure to win defensive headers from a standing jump. Tarkowski's goal for Burnley at OT is a prime example. Soyuncu is another example.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'd be very surprised if this is still an issue next year, hes very aware it's one of our biggest issues.

Hope so.

It's a real issue - not just another stick to beat Ole with.

We're dropping a lot - relatively speaking - of points because of this weakness. He has to fix it.

 

[A-man]

I’ve gone through all conceded setpiece goals.
7 are headed goals
7 are footed goals.

2 of the footed goals came after loosing an aerial.
2 of the footed goals were quick taken free kicks
2 of the footed goals were in the mess after we cleared it
1 of the footed goals was direct free kick

Here is a list of the player who lost the aerial for each goal.
Headed goals:
Pogba
Matic
Maguire
McTominay
Lindelof
Axel
Telles

Losing header before footed goal:
Martial
AWB /Shaw

Interestingly, never the same player twice.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Probably yeah. It’s the same problem again in that we don’t really have many players who are decent in the air. Even Maguire who’s aerially dominant has been poor when it comes to attacking headers.

We’ve tried plenty of set routines in the past, set pieces that we’d clearly practiced and rehearsed. It’s obviously an area we’ve worked on in training. But again, if the aerial threat isn’t really there then it’s always going to have limited impact.

Well I guess then its the players, bad luck we seem to have the 19th worse squad aerially in the league. Nothing to do with coaching.

 

[owlo]

Obviously the manager. Interested to see how anybody could absolve him.

 

[Sandikan]

It's funny looking at the stats over the years, as the perception has been that we've been pretty dreadful attacking set pieces for years.

Even when under Mourinho we had Smalling, Fellaini, Ibra, Pogba and probably a couple of others we didn't seem that dangerous.

Probably a mix of having never replaced Beckham's incredible delivery, mixed with players often seeming a bit less dangerous when you have them, then playing against them.
Take Fellaini. He often seemed unplayable against us, but never quite the threat for us.

At the moment we have one threat, Maguire. He seems to get his head on about 75% of corners, but barely ever seems to get it on target. Perception was that for Leicester and England he was a huge threat.

 

[Zen86]

Well I guess then its the players, bad luck we seem to have the 19th worse squad aerially in the league. Nothing to do with coaching.

What do you suggest the coaches are doing wrong? Do they not teach how to head good?

 

[northernfan]

Its Goalkeeping. I like DDG on his line and he make some spectacular saves. But I can't recall him ever coming off his line to make a great grab. I've seen more from Henderson in that department this year.

 

[Bobcat]

Quality thread @SAFMUTD

No doubt we are shocking at set pieces at both ends of the pitch. Its also shocking that Chelsea managed 22 goals from them in 16/17. What the hell

Imo, the problem is the coaching, the system and the players. They all work in tandem to enhance each other.

The only standout aerial player we got is Maguire. Im to lazy to dig up any stats, but i am pretty sure he was top in the league this season in pretty much every important category like headed clearances and aerials won. Hes great in our own box, but sadly not that great at the other end. Other than that, we dont really have any players that stand out as great aerial players. Scott and Pogba are alright because of their physique, and Cavani because of his movement and timing. The rest are average/below average and Lindelof and Bailly are rubbish imo for CB's. The biggest player issue imo is De Gea. He refuses to come of his line, so opponents know they can just blast it into the 6 yard box where any header towards goal is super dangerous

Problem two is zonal marking. Now i am not going to pretend i know the pros and cons of zonal vs man marking, but as it is now, if it misses Maguires zone we are in trouble. Problem three, which is closely related to two is that unless Maguire deals with it, it often lands in an area where our own players are either ball watching or just fecking sleeping

Imo, we need a new partner for Maguire, and that is even disregarding our troubles at set pieces. Secondly, we either need to get in a new coach who is a specialist at set pieces (or get in a brand new one, but honestly i have no fecking clue how good or bad our coaches are)

 

[A-man]

I saw in the Carrick and McKenna thread some people mentioning that the set pieces problems was due to the coaching staff others repplied it was to Ole because under Mourinho the same staff was around (they were not) and we werent as bad, others said its the players lack of aerial ability. So I did some research from the last 5 seasons.

*Starting players are taken from the defenders with most minuted played on the league.

Personel:

Season	Manager	Starting Defense	Coaching staff
2016/17	Mourinho	DDG - Rojo - Bailly - Blind - Valencia	Rui Faria, Silvino Louro, Ricardo Formosinho
2017/18	Mourinho	DDG - Young - Smalling - Jones - Valencia	Rui Faria, Silvino Louro, Ricardo Formosinho
2018/19	Mourinho/Ole	DDG - Shaw - Smalling - Lindelof - Young	Silvino Louro, Ricardo Formosinho/Carrick, McKenna, Phelan, Mark Dempsey
2019/20	Ole	DDG - Shaw - Maguire - Lindelof - AWB	Carrick, McKenna, Phelan, Mark Dempsey
2020/21	Ole	DDG - Shaw - Maguire - Lindelof - AWB	Carrick, McKenna, Phelan, Martyn Pert

2016/17

Rank	Team	Scored	Against	Difference
1​	Chelsea	22	7	15
12​	Manchester United	7	7	0
20​	Southampton	7	17	-10

2017/18

Rank	Team	Scored	Against	Difference
1​	Manchester City	15	3	12
6​	Manchester United	14	10	4
20​	Brighton	5	21	-16

2018/19

Rank	Team	Scored	Against	Difference
1​	Liverpool	20	8	12
10​	Manchester United	12	12	0
20​	Fulham	5	11	-6

2019/20

Rank	Team	Scored	Against	Difference
1​	Liverpool	17	7	10
17​	Manchester United	8	11	-3
20​	Norwich	3	17	-14

2020/21

Rank	Team	Scored	Against	Difference
1​	Southampton	15	6	9
19​	Manchester United	7	14	-7
20​	Sheffield United	4	11	-7

While we werent great from 2016 to 2018 I think the pattern is clear, the decline of our production on set pieces is really concerning. We've regressed offensively and deffensively up to the point that we are ridiculously bad. Bottom table productivity.

What do you think the problem is? were the players from 2016-2017 better than todays? is it Ole and his managment? is it the coaching staff? who's to blame? and how do we solve it?

This season was certainly bad. But looking back ten years and we can see that the players back then we’re not so much better at defending
setpieces so it’s not as new problem as I thought.

Goals conceded on setpieces

10/11 - 10
11/12 - 10
12/13 -8
13/14 - 11
14/15 -12
15/16- 11

 

[SAFMUTD]

Yes, there isn't enough chatter in our back line, or in the team for that matter. De Gea has never been a vocal keeper. Smalling at least tried to organize (I seem to remember him pointing and shouting a fair bit). Maguire is very quiet back there. A back line needs someone directing it.

We gave up a high percentage of goals from corners and free kicks last season but in general these scenarios don't account for more than 10% of all goals scored so it's maybe not as big an issue as some are making it out to be.

It's an obvious area for improvement though, so getting better at it would have a lot of benefit on our results.

14 out of 44, 31.8%. I do think it's a big issue.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I’ve gone through all conceded setpiece goals.
7 are headed goals
7 are footed goals.

2 of the footed goals came after loosing an aerial.
2 of the footed goals were quick taken free kicks
2 of the footed goals were in the mess after we cleared it
1 of the footed goals was direct free kick

Here is a list of the player who lost the aerial for each goal.
Headed goals:
Pogba
Matic
Maguire
McTominay
Lindelof
Axel
Telles

Losing header before footed goal:
Martial
AWB /Shaw

Interestingly, never the same player twice.

Great compilation man, for all the stick Lindelof gets he actually is at fault for just one.

 

[SAFMUTD]

What do you suggest the coaches are doing wrong? Do they not teach how to head good?

Is it that simple? If their job was to train the players about heading they wouldn't be needed at all.

What are they doing wrong? Well I don't know but the poor results in both ends of the pitch suggest that whatever they're doing it's clearly not working.

 

[SAFMUTD]

This season was certainly bad. But looking back ten years and we can see that the players back then we’re not so much better at defending
setpieces so it’s not as new problem as I thought.

Goals conceded on setpieces

10/11 - 10
11/12 - 10
12/13 -8
13/14 - 11
14/15 -12
15/16- 11

Exactly we've never been a force but we never were this bad either. Do you have the stats about scoring in those seasons?

I mean what's worrying is that overall we are the worse squad, I didn't reserached other teams besides the top 6 but most of them have +5 even +10 difference. When you sum that up it's a 17 goal difference just from set pieces. How many points were lost because of that? Just out of the top of my mind the draw against everton, the lost against Leicester that's 3 points right there just in 2 goals.

If we are serious about a title challenge we can't be this weak on set pieces, specially against low blocks where set pieces are a golden opportunity to score.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

14 out of 44, 31.8%. I do think it's a big issue.

We're fifth in goals conceded this past season so it's not a huge problem. But if we can tighten it up a bit then we'll have a massive benefit, probably.

The 10% reference was to highlight that goals from corners and set pieces are rare and the coaching staff likely had bigger fish to fry to get us to where we ended up. I'd expect this stat to improve next season.

 

[Kag]

It’s a coaching issue at this point; one that needs to be addressed. It’s also in part due to De Gea being a complete fanny. Henderson, while better in as much as he actually attempts to do his job, isn’t the most convincing in this respect either.

Ole and the team need to fix it and De Gea needs to go in the bin.

 

[A-man]

Great compilation man, for all the stick Lindelof gets he actually is at fault for just one.

I would say he was at fault for the goal vs Everton as well, together with a bunch of others...

Exactly we've never been a force but we never were this bad either. Do you have the stats about scoring in those seasons?

I mean what's worrying is that overall we are the worse squad, I didn't reserached other teams besides the top 6 but most of them have +5 even +10 difference. When you sum that up it's a 17 goal difference just from set pieces. How many points were lost because of that? Just out of the top of my mind the draw against everton, the lost against Leicester that's 3 points right there just in 2 goals.

If we are serious about a title challenge we can't be this weak on set pieces, specially against low blocks where set pieces are a golden opportunity to score.

We must improve on both the defending and attacking setpieces. However one of the most important rules when working with problem solving is to not lump together two problems. They may not have any correlation.
I think working with defending setpieces must be the easiest way to improve our defence. Two seasons in a row we concede few goals in open play but many from setpieces.

When I saw your tables it struck me that we are just as bad at scoring from corners etc. I didn’t write down the figures from 2010-2015 but we scored more, like a lot more.
2011/12 we scored 18 goals and 2012/13 we scored 22 setpiece goals!!