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Phil Foden - What Is His Potential?

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Sterling and Bernardo Silva are looking to leave City so I‘d imagine that Grealish will be to replace one of them. Pep says that Foden’s long term position will be in midfield but he’s still learning. I don’t think if Grealish signs it will be to replace Foden.
In terms of roles I think it will be. Time will tell though...
I don't buy for one bit ANY of the rumours around Bernardo Silva or sterling. they just exist because they had bad years last season. I think they are utterly baseless. Just like folks were'certain' Stones was on the chopping block after the previous season.

I truly believe Grealish will be targeted because Pep has no intention of buying a natural striker to replace Aguero. I believe he has his heart set on grooming Foden and Torres for that role.
Meaning he will need a player like grealish who can operate in D. Silva's former role and as a winger.

As for Sancho and Foden, they’re both at the same level of potential for me.
I can get behind that line of thinking.
 

bsCallout

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Disingenuous is precisely the word I need. Because some like you insist on painting Foden staying at City, training the same hours and insisting on fighting for a starting place against the odds of:
i. a team packed with world class seniors even on the bench
ii. a team with a recent history of no longer having a clear first team path for youngsters
ii. A manager with no belief in trusting talented youngsters in the deep end (which is why exactly a Sancho left)
as negative. a.k.a ' protection from responsibility at best, a lack of ambition at worst. Its 100% disingenuous.
No, I don't think it is.

& When did I paint it as a negative? In fact I said he'd be better for it. Foden is being given every opportunity to succeed and being protected against failing.

This kid isn't even a regular starter yet. Sancho on the other hand has been playing men's football week in week out for three years.

Lets not pretend the city fan that everyone loves has chosen a difficult path though by simply staying with his boyhood club and playing when he gets a chance(infrequently).
 

Classical Mechanic

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In terms of roles I think it will be. Time will tell though...
I don't buy for one bit ANY of the rumours around Bernardo Silva or sterling. they just exist because they had bad years last season. I think they are utterly baseless. Just like folks were'certain' Stones was on the chopping block after the previous season.

I truly believe Grealish will be targeted because Pep has no intention of buying a natural striker to replace Aguero. I believe he has his heart set on grooming Foden and Torres for that role.
Meaning he will need a player like grealish who can operate in D. Silva's former role and as a winger.

I can get behind that line of thinking.
Sam Lee who is the most reliable City journalist out there says that it's true that they both want to leave. From what he said it seems that Silva is most likely to leave although Pep wants them both to stay, unlike when Sane and Otamendi asked to leave. It seems that Sterling fell out with Pep at the back end of the season but it would be a surprise if he left I think. In the case of Bernado Silva he really wants to join Barca and he nearly did last season. He's on record saying that he wants to play in Spain.
 

bosnian_red

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I've clearly explained why already.

Rather I'm comparing a player who had the patience and determination to stay at City and prove to Guardiola he deserved a place in his XI on merit. To a player who didn't and chose to get regular time at a lower level without having to prove to Guardiola he was worthy of a place in his team. It's that simple.


Anyone trying to claim Sancho is 'better" off of his running to Dortmund for first team football. Over staying and fighting for a place amongst steep competion like Foden did is plain not serious.
I dont understand this logic at all. Foden is better because he sat on the bench for 3 years and scored 9 league goals as a forward for Peps City while Sanchos been behind Messi and pretty much nobody else from a productivity POV as a winger for 3 seasons now? I guess Shola Shoretire is better than Sancho because he's waiting to play in the PL. Or Amad is better just because he had an appearance. Or that Gabriel Jesus is better than Robert Lewandowski.

Seriously one of the weirdest takes I've ever seen. Jadon Sancho left, like Pogba did. And then proceeded to become one of the best wingers in world football and showed it for 3 years. He's one of the most creative players in the world, up there with anyone as a dribbler, and has been scoring 15 goals a season too, each year with a different striker in front of him, different fullback behind him and on different wings. He's just been a brilliant, brilliant player. Is Foden a better player than Gnabry or Sane yet? No, and they aren't as good as Sancho despite being older. Sancho and Foden are the same age. How can one player who has been a fringe sub for 2 seasons and then a solid rotation option for 1 year and had a good (but not great) Season all of a sudden be better than someone who has been tearing it up for 3 years in a top league? It's not the championship ffs.

It's fine if you think Foden has the greater potential. That's one thing (I still completely disagree, but anyway). To claim he is ahead of Sancho right now is just plain wrong, and not based on anything tangible. Not based on anything they've shown this year, or last year, or the past 3 years. 2 players the same age and one has been one of the most productive players in all of Europe in a top 3 league since 18, while the other has been on the bench most of the time. It's fine if you think it's impressive that him staying at City is a positive. But it's not a bigger positive when comparing their achievements and levels of players right now, otherwise you are getting way too caught up in the PL being the be all and end all and all other leagues are irrelevant. You know Bayern just won the CL a year ago right? Sancho would walk in their team.
 

bosnian_red

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There is ZERO protection in being forced to wait for a starting place when you are good enough to play talent wise. Yet ahead of you are world class players and a manager who is insisting "you wait your turn", regardless of that said talent you possess.


A Sancho left because he felt he was not keen on waiting with such odds against him. Foden stayed to fight for his place IN SPITE of the same odds against him.

To then claim a Sancho is some how "better" and his path "harder" because he sort easier to attain first team football because it was on foreign soil is disingenuous.
Hes better because he showed it. What's Foden better at? He's not a better dribbler, not a better passer, he's not as creative as Sancho (literally every statistic supports both of these despite Foden playing in a more advanced position and for Peps City who inflates numbers more than the BL does), and Sancho has scored a lot more goals in his career so far. For the record, I think Foden is a much better shooter and will prove to be a better goalscorer but he's not on the same planet as Sancho when it comes to creativity, dribbling or his impact on build up play. Foden is still a moments player because he's young. Like Greenwood. Sancho literally runs games for Dortmund.

A player can't be better based on some hypothetical belief without actually proving they are better on the field. The same logic can say any random young player who hasn't played much is better than a proven professional because "they are fighting it out and just trust me they are better even though not a single thing supports this theory".
 
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Hes better because he showed it.
Showed it where? He left City to play. Foden didn't. The ONLY thing Sancho proved was his development got accelerated because he got first time football quicker via the path he chose Nothing else.


What's Foden better at?
This past season per 90 minutes in league football Foden has a higher pass accuracy (88.9% to 82.44%), plus a higher taken on success (56.72% to 55.8%). Whilst starting 7 game less. (source sqauwka.com comparison matrix).

The notion Foden has nothing he beats Sancho at is ridiculous hyperbole

He's not a better dribbler,
Yes. But he doesn't need to be. He is already more efficient with his take ons.

not a better passer
provably wrong


he's not as creative as Sancho (literally every statistic supports both of these despite Foden playing in a more advanced position and for Peps City who inflates numbers more than the BL does), and Sancho has scored a lot more goals in his career so far.
This again Sancho has 3 years of consistent first team football over Foden. To attempt to directly compare their numbers over the expanse of their careers thus far yet one started all his club games for close to 3 seasons, whilst the other mostly started fewer games at less important times as a fringe option makes very little sense. Its purposefully disingenuous.
 

bosnian_red

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Showed it where? He left City to play. Foden didn't. The ONLY thing Sancho proved was his development got accelerated because he got first time football quicker via the path he chose Nothing else.



This past season per 90 minutes in league football Foden has a higher pass accuracy (88.9% to 82.44%), plus a higher taken on success (56.72% to 55.8%). Whilst starting 7 game less. (source sqauwka.com comparison matrix).

The notion Foden has nothing he beats Sancho at is ridiculous hyperbole

Yes. But he doesn't need to be. He is already more efficient with his take ons.


provably wrong


This again Sancho has 3 years of consistent first team football over Foden. To attempt to directly compare their numbers over the expanse of their careers thus far yet one started all his club games for close to 3 seasons, whilst the other mostly started fewer games at less important times as a fringe option makes very little sense. Its purposefully disingenuous.
He showed it... on the pitch? Seriously explain to me how a player staying and not playing means he's better than a player that went to a top 10 team in Europe in a top 3 league and absolutely tore it up for 3 years straight? There's no logic in that. None. Is amad diallo better since Sancho never proved it in the premier league yet ffs?

Pass accuracy... I'd expect City players to have better pass accuracy. Not sure what relevance fewer games played for Foden has. That "take on success" difference is laughably negligible, come on.

Also prove that he's a better passer. Not pass completion percentages. Usefulness. In per 90 stats over the past year, Sancho destroys Foden in xA, key passes, passes into the penalty area, passes into the final third, progressive passes, receives more progressive passes, has more touches in the attacking 3rd, more in the midfield 3rd, more carries into the box, more carries into the final 3rd, more progressive carries, way more dribbles completed per game (with a minor drop in success, not unexpected when Sancho takes on so many more). He has more "shot creating actions" too.

Foden wins in touches in the penalty area (played as a central forward for City vs Sancho playing as a creative winger), he has more xG/90 and takes more shots per game, and is better at pressing/generally defensively where Sancho isn't very good. He's a good young player. But there's literally nothing that suggests he's a better player than Sancho yet, as Sancho has shown world class form for 3 years, since he was 18 and his past 2 seasons have been miles better than Fodens this season. Sancho has been dominating games in the Bundesliga and playing well in the CL for multiple seasons now. Foden had half a year as a starter where he looked good, but still not Sancho level good. And they are the same age.

Like I said. Fine if you think he's a bigger talent, I disagree. Maybe when they were in the youth team at City Foden was better, I genuinely don't know how they were regarded. But Sancho left, like you said got his chance but more importantly than anything, took his chances and has been tearing it up for 3 years and has progressed loads into a genuinely top player and one of the best wingers, or creative players in the world. Foden is 2 years behind Sancho in development, hasn't been close to Sancho on the pitch, so how can he be better if they're the same age right now? You surely can't just disregard actual on the pitch performances in favor of hypothetical talk? That's crazy.
 
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I dont understand this logic at all. Foden is better because he sat on the bench for 3 years and scored 9 league goals as a forward for Peps City while Sanchos been behind Messi and pretty much nobody else from a productivity POV as a winger for 3 seasons now?..........
Talk about attacking straw men.... :rolleyes

I repeat, I'm rubbishing the very fallacious claim that sancho 'is better'
just because he left City to play first team football due to the odds against it at City. Whilst Foden stayed to get first team football beating those very odds. If you want to quibble about who is better currently that is your business. Not mine. It not remotely part of my argument.

........Jadon Sancho left, like Pogba did. And then proceeded to become one of the best wingers in world football and showed it for 3 years. He's one of the most creative players in the world, up there with anyone as a dribbler, and has been scoring 15 goals a season too, each year with a different striker in front of him, different fullback behind him and on different wings. He's just been a brilliant, brilliant player. Is Foden a better player than Gnabry or Sane yet? No, and they aren't as good as Sancho despite being older. Sancho and Foden are the same age. How can one player who has been a fringe sub for 2 seasons and then a solid rotation option for 1 year and had a good (but not great) Season all of a sudden be better than someone who has been tearing it up for 3 years in a top league? It's not the championship ffs.
What a whole load of irrelevant nonsense and fallacious reasoning put together. The fact your mind has conflated highlighting the false premise that sancho is better than Foden is built on. With one declaring Foden is better than Sancho basing on their playing careers thus far says it all. You are just plain disingenuous.......
:lol:
It's fine if you think Foden has the greater potential. That's one thing (I still completely disagree, but anyway). To claim he is ahead of Sancho right now is just plain wrong, and not based on anything tangible.
Who exactly made the claim in bold?:lol: I KNOW I didn't. At most I said the claim Sancho was 'far better' going by their current national team pecking order showed the notion was some what fanciful. Little else.

Furthermore any basis I have in viewing their potential. Lies in the fact at the same under 17 global tournament Foden emerged the best player, the fact City were not overly bothered losing Sancho but went out of their way to not lose Foden when his contract was up (possibly hinting at how a Pep views their talents). Plus now the fact Foden has readily settled into the national team set up than Sancho at the momment.

But I frankly don't really care who is better. I'm just super cuffed two players I saw at age group level light up the world are now firmly on their path to fulfilling their undoubted potential at senior level. Even if one chose a path that accelerated his course way faster to that level than the other.
 

bsCallout

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He showed it... on the pitch? Seriously explain to me how a player staying and not playing means he's better than a player that went to a top 10 team in Europe in a top 3 league and absolutely tore it up for 3 years straight? There's no logic in that. None. Is amad diallo better since Sancho never proved it in the premier league yet ffs?

Pass accuracy... I'd expect City players to have better pass accuracy. Not sure what relevance fewer games played for Foden has. That "take on success" difference is laughably negligible, come on.

Also prove that he's a better passer. Not pass completion percentages. Usefulness. In per 90 stats over the past year, Sancho destroys Foden in xA, key passes, passes into the penalty area, passes into the final third, progressive passes, receives more progressive passes, has more touches in the attacking 3rd, more in the midfield 3rd, more carries into the box, more carries into the final 3rd, more progressive carries, way more dribbles completed per game (with a minor drop in success, not unexpected when Sancho takes on so many more). He has more "shot creating actions" too.

Foden wins in touches in the penalty area (played as a central forward for City vs Sancho playing as a creative winger), he has more xG/90 and takes more shots per game, and is better at pressing/generally defensively where Sancho isn't very good. He's a good young player. But there's literally nothing that suggests he's a better player than Sancho yet, as Sancho has shown world class form for 3 years, since he was 18 and his past 2 seasons have been miles better than Fodens this season. Sancho has been dominating games in the Bundesliga and playing well in the CL for multiple seasons now. Foden had half a year as a starter where he looked good, but still not Sancho level good. And they are the same age.

Like I said. Fine if you think he's a bigger talent, I disagree. Maybe when they were in the youth team at City Foden was better, I genuinely don't know how they were regarded. But Sancho left, like you said got his chance but more importantly than anything, took his chances and has been tearing it up for 3 years and has progressed loads into a genuinely top player and one of the best wingers, or creative players in the world. Foden is 2 years behind Sancho in development, hasn't been close to Sancho on the pitch, so how can he be better if they're the same age right now? You surely can't just disregard actual on the pitch performances in favor of hypothetical talk? That's crazy.
The fact that @Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber has the cheek to keep using words like 'hyperbole' and 'disingenuous' too. Ooop he's added 'strawman' and 'fallacious' too. It's like a glossary of words from smart arses all over the internet trying to sound clever.

Keep going, Chief, you should be able to fit a few more new words into the thread to make yourself sound even more arrogant.
 
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He showed it... on the pitch? Seriously explain to me how a player staying and not playing means he's better than a player that went to a top 10 team in Europe in a top 3 league and absolutely tore it up for 3 years straight? There's no logic in that. None. Is amad diallo better since Sancho never proved it in the premier league yet ffs?

Pass accuracy... I'd expect City players to have better pass accuracy. Not sure what relevance fewer games played for Foden has. That "take on success" difference is laughably negligible, come on.

Also prove that he's a better passer. Not pass completion percentages. Usefulness. In per 90 stats over the past year, Sancho destroys Foden in xA, key passes, passes into the penalty area, passes into the final third, progressive passes, receives more progressive passes, has more touches in the attacking 3rd, more in the midfield 3rd, more carries into the box, more carries into the final 3rd, more progressive carries, way more dribbles completed per game (with a minor drop in success, not unexpected when Sancho takes on so many more). He has more "shot creating actions" too.

Foden wins in touches in the penalty area (played as a central forward for City vs Sancho playing as a creative winger), he has more xG/90 and takes more shots per game, and is better at pressing/generally defensively where Sancho isn't very good. He's a good young player. But there's literally nothing that suggests he's a better player than Sancho yet, as Sancho has shown world class form for 3 years, since he was 18 and his past 2 seasons have been miles better than Fodens this season. Sancho has been dominating games in the Bundesliga and playing well in the CL for multiple seasons now. Foden had half a year as a starter where he looked good, but still not Sancho level good. And they are the same age.

Like I said. Fine if you think he's a bigger talent, I disagree. Maybe when they were in the youth team at City Foden was better, I genuinely don't know how they were regarded. But Sancho left, like you said got his chance but more importantly than anything, took his chances and has been tearing it up for 3 years and has progressed loads into a genuinely top player and one of the best wingers, or creative players in the world. Foden is 2 years behind Sancho in development, hasn't been close to Sancho on the pitch, so how can he be better if they're the same age right now? You surely can't just disregard actual on the pitch performances in favor of hypothetical talk? That's crazy.
Whats crazy rather what is repeatedly attacking an argument that was NEVER EVER made. I haven't said any where in the last few pages Foden is better than Sancho. I instead have first rubbished the premise used to claim Sancho is superior. A premise based on the fact Sancho left City to get a path to his 3 years of first team football at Dortmund that is being used as a stick to beat up on Foden. Who unlike Sancho chose to stay and fight the odds that made Sancho choose the path he did. Plus rubbished the laughable claim there is
nothing Foden is better at. I don't give a fig if you think the difference in some of what I highlighted is 'negligible'. or City's playing style is suddenly an excuse....

There is nothing hypothetical about that.
 

VorZakone

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I don't know why it's being used against Sancho that he left City. If anything, I applaud him for leaving his England comfort zone to play first team minutes at Dortmund and show his talent.
 

Sphaero

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Lets be honest here: Passing accuracy on its own without context is a pretty meaningless stat to decide passing skill. Sancho doubled the amount of key passes compared to Foden last season. Sanchos play as a whole is more vertical than Fodens.

Sancho is actually capable of passing with more accuracy, just by being more risk averse. With England he sits around the 90% mark, but develops far less impact on the game.

In terms of pass selection and timing I take Sancho any day over Foden as the former simply develops more dangerous situations as passer.
 

bosnian_red

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Whats crazy rather what is repeatedly attacking an argument that was NEVER EVER made. I haven't said any where in the last few pages Foden is better than Sancho. I instead have rubbished the premise used to claim Sancho is superior. A premise based on the fact Sancho left City to get a path to his 3 years of first team football at Dortmund that is being used as a stick to beat up on Foden. Who unlike Sancho chose to stay and fight the odds that made Sancho choose the path he did. There is nothing hypothetical about that.
You are saying it is laughable to claim Sancho is better than Foden. People aren't saying it because he left City to play for Dortmund, it's weird to claim that. People are saying that because the level he's performed at for 3 years now is a level that Foden hasn't reached. See the 2 posts below.

I marvel that there are people out here actually thinking a Sancho "better than Foden" because he was tearing the bundesliga at 18. Yet Sancho left a City because he has not the patience nor desire to prove to Guardiola he was ready to play for his best team regularly.

Foden did. The notion Sancho has progressed faster to first team football purely due to superior talent is built on extremely false premises.
Wrong. He seems better because he run off to a place that could allow him to show every week how good he is as a player.


Foden did not. He took the path twice as hard. To claim he is the worse player because of it is laughable in the extreme.
Foden is a worse player right now. There's so little doubt in that based on their performances this year, or any year. Its fine that Foden stayed at City, fair fecks to him and City fans will love him for it. It doesn't mean that a player who left and then proceeded to become one of the very best creators in world football isn't a better player at the moment. Of course he is. He's shown it on the pitch with his performances. The reason isn't because he started doing it at 18 therefore has more potential while Foden had a slower development. Sancho is a better player right now because his performances this season were just straight up better.

Here's a comparison of how they stack up. Fodens likely a better goalscorer (at least played as a center forward often), while Sancho has so much more impact everywhere else on the pitch and is a more creative player while for 3 years now proving he can still get 15 goals a season as a creative winger. There's very few non striker players in the world that can match his productivity.
(Percentile ranks for per 90 stats in Europe's top 5 leagues and European competitions against attacking mids or wingers. Yes that's Sancho in the high 90's for every passing and dribbling stat).
 
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No, I don't think it is.
You are free to. That's fair. I'm not changing my stance, though. I'm convinced you are being disingenuous

& When did I paint it as a negative? In fact I said he'd be better for it. Foden is being given every opportunity to succeed and being protected against failing.
Your claims I'll quote verbatim:
[Foden has been protected by not having to deal with the pressure of playing week in, week out....]

[Not only that but the physical benefits with regards to being fresh cannot be ignored.]

[In fact I said he'd be better for it. Foden is being given every opportunity to succeed and being protected against failing. ]

How the heck is ANY of that Positive? You have literally painted Foden as a player who has chosen an easy path. Has been molly coddled and purposefully shielded from first team responsibility. To keep him fresh. On top of being handed success on a silver platter, with everything being done to ensure he doesn't fail. Come on.....If you think THAT counts as praise/positivity. I shudder to think what you would say if you were being negative. .....
.
This kid isn't even a regular starter yet. Sancho on the other hand has been playing men's football week in week out for three years.
This again! Its incredible: Y'all insist on using the fact Sancho left City and got 3 years of first team football under his belt as dortmund. As a stick to beat Foden with. Yet Foden stayed to best the VERY odds that chased Sancho from City in the fast place. Even stranger is you STILL see nothing wrong with it......

Lets not pretend the city fan that everyone loves has chosen a difficult path though by simply staying with his boyhood club and playing when he gets a chance(infrequently).
Who made that assumption? I certainly didn't. I layed out EXACTLY what odds I believe a Foden had to beat by staying at City to make it to the first XI. As opposed to leaving like Sancho did. I don't remember 'being a city fan' EVER being one of them
 

bsCallout

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You are saying it is laughable to claim Sancho is better than Foden. People aren't saying it because he left City to play for Dortmund, it's weird to claim that. People are saying that because the level he's performed at for 3 years now is a level that Foden hasn't reached. See the 2 posts below.




Foden is a worse player right now. There's so little doubt in that based on their performances this year, or any year. Its fine that Foden stayed at City, fair fecks to him and City fans will love him for it. It doesn't mean that a player who left and then proceeded to become one of the very best creators in world football isn't a better player at the moment. Of course he is. He's shown it on the pitch with his performances. The reason isn't because he started doing it at 18 therefore has more potential while Foden had a slower development. Sancho is a better player right now because his performances this season were just straight up better.

Here's a comparison of how they stack up. Fodens likely a better goalscorer (at least played as a center forward often), while Sancho has so much more impact everywhere else on the pitch and is a more creative player while for 3 years now proving he can still get 15 goals a season as a creative winger. There's very few non striker players in the world that can match his productivity.
(Percentile ranks for per 90 stats in Europe's top 5 leagues and European competitions against attacking mids or wingers. Yes that's Sancho in the high 90's for every passing and dribbling stat).
He's a baller but those pressing stats make me wonder how he'll perform for us and what will be required of him. We'd need another aggressive CM with him in the team for sure.
 

bosnian_red

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He's a baller but those pressing stats make me wonder how he'll perform for us and what will be required of him. We'd need another aggressive CM with him in the team for sure.
Oh for sure. Rashford and Sancho are definitely not going to be very useful defensively so the midfield behind Bruno will need to be very strong and cover that. Just how it is though. Grealish is pretty much identical with that to Sancho too, for those that want him.

That's part of the reason why I think Rice would balance us quite well. Pogba I think will have 0 use long term if we get Sancho, so a Fred and Rice midfield behind Bruno, Sancho and Rashford would at least get a decent balance there. Still needs better passing than what Fred offers, but baby steps. Wan Bissaka good enough with his overlapping runs though to help Sancho while being very good at shutting down that flank defensively already so it would be fine IMO.
 

bsCallout

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You are free to. That's fair. I'm not changing my stance, though. I'm convinced you are being disingenuous


Your claims I'll quote verbatim:
[Foden has been protected by not having to deal with the pressure of playing week in, week out....]

[Not only that but the physical benefits with regards to being fresh cannot be ignored.]

[In fact I said he'd be better for it. Foden is being given every opportunity to succeed and being protected against failing. ]

How the heck is ANY of that Positive? You have literally painted Foden as a player who has chosen an easy path. Has been molly coddled and purposefully shielded from first team responsibility. To keep him fresh. On top of being handed success on a silver platter, with everything being done to ensure he doesn't fail. Come on.....If you think THAT counts as praise/positivity. I shudder to think what you would say if you were being negative. .....
.

This again! Its incredible: Y'all insist on using the fact Sancho left City and got 3 years of first team football under his belt as dortmund. As a stick to beat Foden with. Yet Foden stayed to best the VERY odds that chased Sancho from City in the fast place. Even stranger is you STILL see nothing wrong with it......

Who made that assumption? I certainly didn't. I layed out EXACTLY what odds I believe a Foden had to beat by staying at City to make it to the first XI. As opposed to leaving like Sancho did. I don't remember 'being a city fan' EVER being one of them
Credit to you, you're sticking to your guns. I'm not wasting my time going back and forth with you. @bosnian_red is doing a good job breaking it down to you.

You sure do come across arrogant.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Foden is a worse player right now. There's so little doubt in that based on their performances this year, or any year. Its fine that Foden stayed at City, fair fecks to him and City fans will love him for it. It doesn't mean that a player who left and then proceeded to become one of the very best creators in world football isn't a better player at the moment. Of course he is. He's shown it on the pitch with his performances. The reason isn't because he started doing it at 18 therefore has more potential while Foden had a slower development. Sancho is a better player right now because his performances this season were just straight up better.

Here's a comparison of how they stack up. Fodens likely a better goalscorer (at least played as a center forward often), while Sancho has so much more impact everywhere else on the pitch and is a more creative player while for 3 years now proving he can still get 15 goals a season as a creative winger. There's very few non striker players in the world that can match his productivity.
(Percentile ranks for per 90 stats in Europe's top 5 leagues and European competitions against attacking mids or wingers. Yes that's Sancho in the high 90's for every passing and dribbling stat).
Totally agree. Sancho has been setting records in the Bundesliga and is among the most productive players in Europe over the last few years so of course he's the better.
 
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Is he a regular starter or only starting because Sterling is stupidly out of form?
Speculation. In the past even loses of form of first teamers like say Sane did NOT increase Foden's first team opportunities. I dont think that is fertile ground to grow an argument against Foden having finally made Pep trust him for his first team

And is that why Pep is looking at Grealish for his position?
More speculation. We all don't really know if Pep will target Grealish let alone why. I don't think any argument can be built around that either about Foden's first team status

Foden had 17 starts in the league last year. 17. Almost as many sub appearances in 11 as starts. At what point is he a consistent starter?
The point he racked up 28 appearances in the league. That many is reserved for first team regulars. Even those first off the bench


Sancho gambled on his ability and we are seeing the rewards. Foden accepting this drip style development comes with consequences and those consequences are being less proven at the senior level.
That is the crux of my entire argument right there. Sancho reaping the rewards of his gamble CAN'T be used as a stick to beat Foden and suddenly claim Sancho is probably superior.

Its a massive leap of faith to put that up against one of the most productive players in all of Europe never mind as a teenager /early twenties.
That is why no one has done so. I do not now why people in here insist on conflating the highlighting of the flaw in the premise used to claim Sancho is far superior to foden. With directly comparing them .... let alone claiming Foden is the better

Aguero replacement as City are after Kane, Lukaku or Sancho? Where has proof of this Foden trust be found? They nearly signed Messi last year!
1. Kane is over price. City wont be blowing that much on striker that is not an absolute necessity. Woodward isn't their chairman.....

2. Lukaku isn't leaving Inter. Sancho will never return to city with Pep there

3. Rightly so they wanted to sign Messi. He was the perfect guy to replace Aguero whilst developing the likes of Foden, Torres and even Delap.
 
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Credit to you, you're sticking to your guns. I'm not wasting my time going back and forth with you. @bosnian_red is doing a good job breaking it down to you.

You sure do come across arrogant.
Good. Id rather not waste time discussing with anyone labeling me arrogant just because I don't agree with their arguments
 
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You are saying it is laughable to claim Sancho is better than Foden. [/ Quote]

FFS.:annoyed: Stop butchering my position with your imagination.

I said the claim Sancho is provably superior to Foden, based on his last 3 years of achievement in first team football is built on an entirely false premise. Because the ONLY reason he has that body of work is he left City because of the odds that have kept Foden mostly a fringe player in that said period at City. You are literally using the fact Foden stayed at City and resultantly played less, as a stick to beat Foden with and declare him the worse player.

I'm not repeating it again. If y'all can't get it right lets end the discussion right here
 

bsCallout

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Good. Id rather not waste time discussing with anyone labeling me arrogant just because I don't agree with their arguments
Have some self awareness to realise it's not because I think your arguement is wrong. I debate many on here in good faith, not yet had any come across as arrogant.
 

bosnian_red

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But... he is a worse player because he hasn't done anything while Sancho has? It's not so much a stick to beat him with. It's literally a fact and an "it is what it is". He is ahead of him currently, because he has done more at the professional level? What's wrong with saying that? Nobody is beating Foden here. It's just saying a fact. Foden took a while to get into the team. Therefore he is behind on his development compared to somebody who left and broke through at 18 and by now is established as one of the best attackers in Europe. It's not like Foden was unjustly on the bench and then has suddenly been given the chance and is instantly having the impact that Sancho has had this year. He's a very promising young player, not an established top player because he hasn't established himself as one on the pitch yet, unlike Sancho.

And butchering your position? I literally quoted 2 posts you put where you word for word said "to claim Foden is a worse player is laughable in the extreme" or you "marvel at people who claim Sancho to be better". Or you are just disagreeing with the reason that Sancho is ahead is because he left therefore got a quicker development path. But it's a weird argument to make because not many were arguing that Sancho took the route to get first team football earlier. What I've been arguing is that as of now, Sancho is a flat out better player as he has shown it on the pitch for every year of their professional careers so far. Foden is an excellent young player. Sancho is one of the best wingers in the world.
 

Giggsyking

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I've clearly explained why already.

Rather I'm comparing a player who had the patience and determination to stay at City and prove to Guardiola he deserved a place in his XI on merit. To a player who didn't and chose to get regular time at a lower level without having to prove to Guardiola he was worthy of a place in his team. It's that simple.


Anyone trying to claim Sancho is 'better" off of his running to Dortmund for first team football. Over staying and fighting for a place amongst steep competion like Foden did is plain not serious.
This is some weird logic. Sancho proved on an elite level he is one of the best wingers in the world for 3 seasons now. Foden did not. I cant understand how is that even difficult to comprehend.
 

elnorte

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Stick peak Aaron Lennon against those German defences and you'd have deranged masses somehow believing he was world class, worth £70 million and best of all a more talented player than Phil Foden.
 
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This is some weird logic. Sancho proved on an elite level he is one of the best wingers in the world for 3 seasons now. Foden did not. I cant understand how is that even difficult to comprehend.
There is zero weird about it. Sancho got to prove his metal earlier at the highest level because he left City due to the odds stacked against doing that there. To then turn and use THAT to play down Foden, who chose to stay in comparison. To battle the very odds that caused Sancho to leave. Is what is actually weird. That is what I'm wondering why it so hard for many of you to understand.

They weren't on level playing field. The problem is y'all consistently conflate me pointing this out with rubbishing Sancho's 3 years of achievement at Dortmund and supposedly equating them to Foden's past 3 at City. Which is plain missing the whole point. On top of having absolutely nothing to do with anything I've argued this far.
 
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Have some self awareness to realise it's not because I think your arguement is wrong. I debate many on here in good faith, not yet had any come across as arrogant.
Spare me your moral high ground supposed outrage and hypocrisy. There is no arrogant way I have behaved toward you. At worst I called your out for your disingenuous stance. It's you who has next to zero self awareness.
 

In Rainbows

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Sancho was ahead of Foden in their academy days too btw. He was playing regularly for their u23s before Foden. Although, both Foden and Sancho were the best players of their 2000 born English generation.
 
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Sam Lee who is the most reliable City journalist out there says that it's true that they both want to leave. From what he said it seems that Silva is most likely to leave although Pep wants them both to stay, unlike when Sane and Otamendi asked to leave. It seems that Sterling fell out with Pep at the back end of the season but it would be a surprise if he left I think. In the case of Bernado Silva he really wants to join Barca and he nearly did last season. He's on record saying that he wants to play in Spain.
Very interesting developments. Thanks for sharing that.
 
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But... he is a worse player because he hasn't done anything while Sancho has? It's not so much a stick to beat him with. It's literally a fact and an "it is what it is".
Not when your ENTIRE reason for your claim lies in pretending Foden was in a protective bubble at City as Sancho did that, plus also pretending the odds that forced Sancho to leave City for a chance at first team achievement, some how never existed for Foden, who stayed.

I Have zero problem with stating Sancho have achieved more than Foden this far at senior level. I simply take exception to the false claim its because he is supposedly just superior and more talented based off his first team achievements. Achievements That were only possible because he chose to leave City. Than battle the odds to make the first team like Foden did. Not because he had superior talent.

He is ahead of him currently, because he has done more at the professional level? What's wrong with saying that?
How about the fact NONE of you has made such an argument? Y'all have been instead trying to pretend Foden has been in a protective bubble and doing little at City. As Sancho conquered the world. Which is what I took exception to.


Why you insist on pretending I've taken "exception' to the obvious fact Sancho has achieved more at senior level is beyond me.



Nobody is beating Foden here. It's just saying a fact.
Bullshit. Yall are deliberately employing double standards and pretending they are fair and right to apply.

Foden took a while to get into the team. Therefore he is behind on his development compared to somebody who left and broke through at 18 and by now is established as one of the best attackers in Europe. It's not like Foden was unjustly on the bench and then has suddenly been given the chance and is instantly having the impact that Sancho has had this year. He's a very promising young player, not an established top player because he hasn't established himself as one on the pitch yet, unlike Sancho.
The point of contention isn't the above. In any shape or form.

The point of contention rather is claiming the one who left for the earlier first team chance, because he didn't want to go through what Foden has. Is supposedly more talented as a result and irredeemably superior because of it. I insist that premise is utterly false at worst and disigenous at best

And butchering your position? I literally quoted 2 posts you put where you word for word said "to claim Foden is a worse player is laughable in the extreme" or you "marvel at people who claim Sancho to be better". ......
You keep doing it.
This was what you quoted

[You are saying it is laughable to claim Sancho is better than Foden]

At what point has that ACTUALLY been my entire argument?


You think what you quoted above and this:
(My first post on the matter today)

[I marvel that there are people out here actually thinking a Sancho "better than Foden" because he was tearing the bundesliga at 18. Yet Sancho left a City because he has not the patience nor desire to prove to Guardiola he was ready to play for his best team regularly]
Bear ANY resemblance to your opening summary of my position?



My contention is Sancho is ahead of development than Foden because of his 3 years of first team football. It's not because he is more talented nor superior. It's because he has had a quicker development platform. Period.
 
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bosnian_red

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Not when your ENTIRE reason for your claim lies in pretending Foden was in a protective bubble at City as Sancho did that, plus also pretending the odds that forced Sancho to leave City for a chance at first team achievement, some how never existed for Foden, who stayed.

Have zero problem with staring Sancho have achieved more than Foden this far at senior level. I simply take exception to the false claim its because he is supposedly just superior and more talented.


How about the fact NONE of you has made such an argument? Y'all have been instead trying to pretend Foden has been in a protective bubble and doing little at City. As Sancho conquered the world. Which is what I took exception to.


Why you insist on pretending I've taken "exception' to the obvious fact Sancho has achieved more at senior level is beyond me.




Bullshit. Yall are deliberately employing double standards and pretending they are fair and right to apply.


The point of contention isn't the above. In any shape or form.

The point of contention rather is claiming the one who left for the earlier first team chance, because he didn't want to go through what Foden has. Is supposedly more talented as a result and irredeemably superior.





You keep doing it.
This was what you quoted

[You are saying it is laughable to claim Sancho is better than Foden]

At what point has that ACTUALLY been my entire argument?


You think what you quoted above and this:
(My first post on the matter today)

[I marvel that there are people out here actually thinking a Sancho "better than Foden" because he was tearing the bundesliga at 18. Yet Sancho left a City because he has not the patience nor desire to prove to Guardiola he was ready to play for his best team regularly]
Bear ANY resemblance to your opening summary of my position?
I genuinely have never said Sancho is a better talent because he left. He's developed more because he left and turned into a better player right now. He is ahead of Foden right now, which is what I've been saying this whole time. IMO he is more talented, but I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm saying that Foden was in a protective bubble. Never been my point, at all. Foden has had a harder route to break out but is also smaller so naturally took longer to break out, which is normal. But it's it's very logical to claim that Sancho is a better player at the moment, and IMO there's nothing tangible to support Foden being ahead of Sancho right now. Which has been my point from the start.

Maybe we just misunderstood each other, but your point was pretty confusing tbf and I'm not sure who was making it. Was just people doing a standard discussion on who is currently better (which isn't a question IMO).
 

Giggsyking

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Good. Id rather not waste time discussing with anyone labeling me arrogant just because I don't agree with their arguments
Your argument is wrong. Nothing wrong in admitting that. All these pages you wrote are meaningless. There are two facts.
1. Sancho has been one of the best wingers in the world for the last 3 seasons.
2. Foden has been a first team/squad player for 1/2 a season.
You have to learn to live with these facts. Whether Sancho has chosen to do it in city or abroad is irrelevant now.
 
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Your argument is wrong. Nothing wrong in admitting that. All these pages you wrote are meaningless
Bullshit. I'm not going to admit to whats in your imagination.
.. There are two facts.
1. Sancho has been one of the best wingers in the world for the last 3 seasons.
Which no one has disputed.


2. Foden has been a first team/squad player for 1/2 a season.
Which hasn't been up for debate either. I'm failing to see where you are going with this......

You have to learn to live with these facts. Whether Sancho has chosen to do it in city or abroad is irrelevant now.
Thats the problem right there.

You have lied to yourself repeatedly that I've disputed the above two facts. Even more laughable you have decided I'm wrong over something you have completely imagined.

Yet you have the audacity to claim another has been writing pages of meaningless stuff
 
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I genuinely have never said Sancho is a better talent because he left. He's developed more because he left and turned into a better player right now. He is ahead of Foden right now, which is what I've been saying this whole time. IMO he is more talented, but I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm saying that Foden was in a protective bubble. Never been my point, at all. Foden has had a harder route to break out but is also smaller so naturally took longer to break out, which is normal. But it's it's very logical to claim that Sancho is a better player at the moment, and IMO there's nothing tangible to support Foden being ahead of Sancho right now. Which has been my point from the start.
Then our arguments are not in opposition. I don't dispute Sancho is currently better than Foden plus ahead in development. It's fact I actually ascribe to.

My issue was with anyone who tried to play down Foden, insisting he is simply less talented and will never be at Sancho's level, by making it seem his been in a protective bubble at City, not pulling up trees like Sancho has, like they have been on level playing field and no extenuating circumstances.

Maybe we just misunderstood each other, but your point was pretty confusing tbf and I'm not sure who was making it. Was just people doing a standard discussion on who is currently better (which isn't a question IMO).
Yes we misunderstood each other. I believe I even mixed your argument with another poster's. Sorrry about that


I disagree however that my stance was confusing. I laid out exactly what I was disputing from the start. Especially after reading a number of posters not only label Foden as over hyped, nothing special but going as far as to insinuate he is behind Sancho in development because he just isn't any where near as talented or good. Not because of extenuating circumstances.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Wow that's a lot of arguing over two players who are still so early in their careers. Basically, Sancho has been one of the most productive attackers in the big leagues over the last few years at the age range of 19-21. Foden has started excellently but is less proven and his performanes aren't yet of the same level. But they're both young and a long way to go to be able to say who will be the better player. But Sancho's performance levels I'd say have been more special thus far. However, being better at 19/20/21 doesn't mean you end up a better footballer. If Sancho moves to United, Foden definitely will be better coached, managed and have a better team for the foreseeable future, so theres that advantage.
 

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Stinking up the place again. He'll be a good player no doubt. But he is so far from a top player right now and it's ridiculous that he's starting over 3 straight up superior players. It's not all that close. Grealish, Sancho and Rashford are all far better players. Inexcusable to start Foden ahead of them.
 
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Stinking up the place again. He'll be a good player no doubt. But he is so far from a top player right now and it's ridiculous that he's starting over 3 straight up superior players. It's not all that close. Grealish, Sancho and Rashford are all far better players. Inexcusable to start Foden ahead of them.
Agreed, but the hype train innit? The wank fest after he pulled out one nice touch and then fecked up the finish was fun.
 

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The so-called Stockport Messi isnt quite the same without Kevin Dr Bruyne and co is he?
 

Pickle85

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He's not helped out by the system and how slow we're playing. He's a player that thrives on the ball moving quickly, one twos, give and go etc. We look ponderous at the mo. I think any talk of him being massively overrated is a bit premature. I reckon he'll be an absolutely top class player. He's not there just yet but he's young. I do think you put Sancho into this England team in his place and he also struggles.