It's not arrogance, it's fear. He's too scared to try anything other than park the bus and hope for a lucky break.
Southgate doesn’t get the credit he deserves
- Thread starter FatTails
- Start date
Think he'll be in for a rude awakening in the WC. Germany will have regrouped under a new (very good) manager, Spain will be contenders if they actually bring a semi-functional striker with them, the French will be a threat assuming they quell their internal drama. And that's not even mentioning the South American teams that seem to have a hex over the English. There won't be the Wembley advantage anymore either.
Though sadly for England they'll persist with Southgate because he's somehow objectively the second most successful manager in England's history...to their detriment.
Though sadly for England they'll persist with Southgate because he's somehow objectively the second most successful manager in England's history...to their detriment.
England used to have managers that just tried to fit in the biggest names in a starting 11. Southgate actually fields a real team and reaching the semifinals of a worldcup and losing the euros in a penaltyshootout proves him right.
I’ve been quite supportive of Southgate, he got us to a European final and you can only beat what’s in front of you at the end of the day.
However, he got it pretty wrong last night. We started well for the first 30 minutes, his initial (albeit defensive) lineup was justified. However, Italy changed things up and were allowed to grow into and take over the game. We did nothing to counter this, simply hoped they wouldn’t get an equaliser, then hoped they wouldn’t get a winner, then finally hoped we would scrape through on penalties.
However, he got it pretty wrong last night. We started well for the first 30 minutes, his initial (albeit defensive) lineup was justified. However, Italy changed things up and were allowed to grow into and take over the game. We did nothing to counter this, simply hoped they wouldn’t get an equaliser, then hoped they wouldn’t get a winner, then finally hoped we would scrape through on penalties.
Indeed. If he thinks beating Denmark on pens was a tactical achievement wait till he meets Brazil or Argentina. Scaredy Southgate would be starting Maguire as the Number 9.
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Everyone I watched the game with seemed to be in total agreement that we needed to change things at half time. As soon as Italy started playing with a false 9, that became even more apparent.
It is something that has been said about Southgate throughout his time in charge - he generally gets his starting lineups right, but he's not particularly good at reacting to opposition changes during the game (especially if they change their system).
It is something that has been said about Southgate throughout his time in charge - he generally gets his starting lineups right, but he's not particularly good at reacting to opposition changes during the game (especially if they change their system).
The hoofing the ball to Sterling tactic in extra time was embarrassing. Took me back to my Sunday league days. The Italians must have found it hilarious.
Southgate is gonna have to live with this one. The early goal shocked Italy and they were all over the place for 30 odd minutes. Instead of going for the kill he wanted to hold on for 88 minutes. It all lined up perfectly for England but the managers’ cowardice has cost us.
Was this all just a ploy by Southgate so he's not forever remembered as England's ultimate penalty failure?
Southgate early in the tournament in response to not playing the likes of Sancho/Grealish etc:
"We've got some explosive options and a lot of them are young players and experiencing a big tournament for the first time"
"So as a coaching staff we are realistic about our expectations of them as individuals."
"Jadon is in that mix. He's trained well the last few days and of course we have got those options and those decisions to make."
Southgate picking the deciding penalty takers for a Euro 2020 title, Wembley, 90k fans, first final in 55 years:
"Go on Sancho + Saka, you got this"
Mental.
"We've got some explosive options and a lot of them are young players and experiencing a big tournament for the first time"
"So as a coaching staff we are realistic about our expectations of them as individuals."
"Jadon is in that mix. He's trained well the last few days and of course we have got those options and those decisions to make."
Southgate picking the deciding penalty takers for a Euro 2020 title, Wembley, 90k fans, first final in 55 years:
"Go on Sancho + Saka, you got this"
Mental.
I'm not english and i had bet the Italians from the start, I have to be honest pre game, I thought England would win. I though the pace of Sterling would hurt the ageing Italian backline. It never really did after a flurry at the start of 1st half. I thought the Italians were there for the taking. I don't think in hindsight England needed the 2 defensive mids, and i felt pace should have been brought in a lot earlier in regards to Rash and Sancho. Grealish looked good again, not sure why he didn't start or again come on earlier. This is the 2nd game in a row where Southgate has subbed a sub. Decent run by England but considering the squad they had, an opportunity missed.
Well now he's remembered as a penalty failure as both player and manager
If anything he's doubled down now
Think England got to the final on the back of some world class players and home advantage, and they got there DESPITE Southgate not because of him. Most of Southgates favourite players were crap, and England got carried at times by certain individual performers.
He's a bit of an Ole. He doesn't respond to changes in the game-flow with his own changes, he's largely an observer. He also has some favourites he seemingly never subs off.
Italy were completely in control in the second half, especially after Mancini's changes and the dropping of Immobile for a false 9. Yet Southgate made no changes of his own while Italy were knocking on the door. He made his first changes with 15 mins left and only after Italy had scored. He let that second half slip completely away without interfering. Italy were playing better and yet they still used 5 changes before Southgate even looked at his bench again to bring on Grealish for his 3rd sub. As if England were in control and not Italy. He had the option to bring on some more fresh pacey forwards to test their ageing defence in extra-time and he didn't. He had settled for penalties, like Ole in the EL final.
I still don't know what Mount was doing to merit playing 100 mins. Why could Grealish not come on at 60-65 mins and get some time to make a difference before the game slowed down to halt? Why keep both Kane and Sterling on especially if the latter was not going to take a pen? Italy changed their whole forward line; no one from Insigne, Chiesa or Immobile finished the game. Our only change to our attack was to bring Saka on for Trippier, that was it for 100 mins till Grealish came on. And what strategy is this to bring players only for the pens but without giving them any time to get some touches on the ball?
If England had won all this would be lost in the euphoria but honestly, that was criminal game (mis)management from Southgate. If England had won the final, it would have been in spite of his game management, rather than thanks to it. Mancini comfortably looked like the braver and smarter coach out there.
Out of depth. He has options but he was being persistent in playing Saka. Should've substituted Sterling and Kane out and brought on fresh legs. He should have finished the match in 120mins rather than go to PKs.
Did he tried to do a Van Gaal tactic for the pks with those 119 minutes subs?
Far too cautious throughout the entire tournament. With the attacking players at our disposal, we were capable of so much more.
Last night we saw an absolutely epic bottlejob.
The starting line up for England was shocking , way too defensive for my liking but they got the lead after 3 minutes and looked in control the 1st half.
Leading 1-0 while having the likes of Rashford,Grealish,Sancho,Bellingham,Saka,Foden? on the bench gives you so many options to play on and try to build on the lead in the 2nd half, but Southgate totally botched it.
The Saka sub was poor , same was Henderson.
Grealish doesnt enter the pitch until the last 5min of the 1st half in extra time even though Mount barely did anything all game.
Subbing on Sancho and Rashford just to take penalties was a terrible decision and very poor man management.
Letting Saka take a pen before other experienced players was awful as well.
If i was an England fan, i would be furious with Southgate.
This was the best chance of winning a Euro/WC and he had the final in the palm of his hand, but threw it away with ultra poor decisions and negative defensive thinking.
The starting line up for England was shocking , way too defensive for my liking but they got the lead after 3 minutes and looked in control the 1st half.
Leading 1-0 while having the likes of Rashford,Grealish,Sancho,Bellingham,Saka,Foden? on the bench gives you so many options to play on and try to build on the lead in the 2nd half, but Southgate totally botched it.
The Saka sub was poor , same was Henderson.
Grealish doesnt enter the pitch until the last 5min of the 1st half in extra time even though Mount barely did anything all game.
Subbing on Sancho and Rashford just to take penalties was a terrible decision and very poor man management.
Letting Saka take a pen before other experienced players was awful as well.
If i was an England fan, i would be furious with Southgate.
This was the best chance of winning a Euro/WC and he had the final in the palm of his hand, but threw it away with ultra poor decisions and negative defensive thinking.
That'll be Sir Gareth Southgate I have you know.
It’s unfair to compare Ole to Southgate. The latter has a wealth of talent and options on the bench, whereas the former did not. That’s what makes last night inexcusable for me, there were any number of game changers just sat there while we were being outplayed.
I just need to add my 2 cents here.
I thought the line ups were a bit off, but we got lucky with the Luke Shaw goal. I honestly felt as he was the best player for England for the tournament.
Southgate wasted the Henderson sub and I will catch flack for this.. but I felt like Grealish, Rashford and Sancho should have come on at the 60-70 minute mark. If that would have happened, I have no doubt that England would have won.
I love Sterling's game and effort but I feel that he was a liability on the pitch as the game wore on. He at times is a bit too greedy and seemed to be more about individual than team. Just my thoughts...
I feel for the kids. Having them come on and not even break a sweat.... and then be expected to take the biggest shots of their life.
I thought the line ups were a bit off, but we got lucky with the Luke Shaw goal. I honestly felt as he was the best player for England for the tournament.
Southgate wasted the Henderson sub and I will catch flack for this.. but I felt like Grealish, Rashford and Sancho should have come on at the 60-70 minute mark. If that would have happened, I have no doubt that England would have won.
I love Sterling's game and effort but I feel that he was a liability on the pitch as the game wore on. He at times is a bit too greedy and seemed to be more about individual than team. Just my thoughts...
I feel for the kids. Having them come on and not even break a sweat.... and then be expected to take the biggest shots of their life.
Just on a side note I find it funny how many people here complain about sideways and backwards passing when Italy was consistently doing them as they have nearly double the possession we had.
No, I don't really think it's unfair. Ole was playing Villareal, the 7th team from Spain, not Italy. It's all relative. The players on Ole's bench would be starting for Villareal. Mata and James would be starting for Villareal, ffs.
It's the same reluctance to make subs, trusting the same players regardless of how their form or in-game performance are and then letting the game pass you by while you foolishly wait for penalties.
The difference being that Italy made use of that possession and managed to conjure up thrice as many attempts on goal as England did. They also finished as the competition's top scorers, so its not like their possession game was a superficial one.
James is a terrible footballer Mike. Zero end product but he runs around a lot, players like that are not championed anywhere near as much in Spain. While Mata is pretty much ready to retire. Neither would start for Villarreal.
I do agree with your general point though in that Ole's management during the game is pretty poor. It's by far his biggest weakness as a Manager and in our coaching team.
Absolute lies.
Least Ole knows his best 11. If we had the bench Southgate had last night he had nearly all them on 2nd half at least
Because passing sideways and backwards is not a problem or negative action.
Who said it was?
Southgate sets his sides up not to lose rather than go all out for a win. Unfortunately, we haven’t got any World Class players, with the possible exception of Kane, to conjure up a convincing attack. Shaw’s goal was brilliant and showed what we could do if allowed. Italy were the better team for large parts of the match. Putting Rashford and Sancho on with a minute to go was folly and also allowing a 19 year old to take the final penalty was an error of judgement. A 19 year old Wayne Rooney would have scored it, but Saka isn’t in the same class. Two Italians also missed penalties, which just showed how much pressure was on the lads taking them. The English fans ,as usual, covered themselves in shit after losing and possibly scuppered any chance of hosting the World Cup in 2030 and who would blame FIFA for deciding not to bring it here?
Fans on this forum complain about sideways and backwards passing all the time. Carrick was sometimes crucified for it.
Grealish has come out and said he would of taken one. So it really is all on Southgate. He made the idiot decisions on pens
Yeah, I'm gonna have to disagree. Buddy, Adama Traore plays for the Spain national team. Jesus Navas made a whole career out of being the fast player with little end product. Almost a mirror of what James is for Utd and Wales, but worse. Players like that are valued is Spain as much as in England. Mata would not start for them, but same age Capoue picked up for free from Championship side Watford does.
My verdict is they would both likely be starters. We can agree to disagree..
Agreed.
So in your mind, in a team that has as much fire power as it does, you think the right decision is to play a back 5 and two dm's and park the bus? Can you be anymore of a muppet?
Having Saka take his first ever senior penalty in those circumstances is just absolutely insane, and honestly negligent of his well-being. Even more so given that we know Grealish was dying to take a pen and didn’t.
Southgate was a coward all night, but his penalty decisions take the cake.
Southgate was a coward all night, but his penalty decisions take the cake.
I dont disagree. I would love to see a Rice-Mount-Grealish midfield. Maybe you can put Philips in there for the bigger games if you want.
No it's not. maybe if you're simple. All he's shown is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. But I can guarantee you that there are other ways to skin that cat, and those other ways won't only produce a simpler way to do it, but it will look better too.
That's natural when your opponent is parking the bus.
If this teams biggest strength was it's defense, then i'd be right behind Southgate's negative tactics. but this team has so much attacking talent, yet Southgate instead plays a back 5 with two DM's and parks the bus. This final was doomed right from the team selection. Only a muppet can't see that...