Southgate doesn’t get the credit he deserves

[DickDastardly]

Of course the negative approach helped getting us to the final to a certain extent, but to continue that in the final and never truly look to even remotely go for it was just sad to watch.

You can't truly think you could change the mentality of the team merely by making attacking changes?

It takes years to instill that into a league team that plays together every day of the week, let alone a NT who see each other every two years or so.

He's a negative coach. Playing 7 defensive players for most of the tournament and calling 5 right backs in the selection kind of reveals that.


Telling them 20 minutes before the end of the match "Ok boys, now forget everything we trained for in the last 2 months and just go for it" just won't do it.
It's like raising your kids - it's not what you tell them - it's what you show them.

 

[Highfather_24]

People like to pretend that its either playing all your star players out of positions OR Southgate's anti football. Like these are the only 2 options. Its not. Southgate doesnt get credit for stopping one mistake and making another instead.

What England needs is a good manager. One who can coach them well and is good tactically. A modern 4-3-3 with the following lineup could have easily taken the game to Italy and beaten them.

------------------Pickford
Walker--Stones--Maguire--Shaw
---------------------Rice
-------------Philips--Grealish
----Sterling----Kane--Sancho

With Mount, Bellingham, Foden and Rashford all competing with the above. The reason Southgate didnt play Grealish and Sancho was not for the balance of the team. Its the same reason Mourinho would prefer Perisic/Willian over Sancho/Rashford. Its because they were not risk free enough for him. Its because they are not "industrious" or "put in a shift" or whatever. Its because Southgate is a coward.

 

[Tarrou]

one of the most negative managers of all time?

England played like a small team with an inferior squad

the amount of attacking talent neglected was criminal

 

[Hammondo]

T

They aren't a different league technically though, especially not compared to some of the players England left on the bench.

What they were, however, was much fitter as Mancini used his entire squad whereas Southgate only trusted about 13 players and ran them into the ground.

Their midfield and defence are way better technically than ours. Attackers our are better, but that's not enough.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

I feel like I've been pro-Southgate more than many, but the loss is all on him. All through the competition I felt we still hadn't seen our best 11 and this team could still go up a gear, but it never happened. Last night in particular was just poor game management.

I quite like England with a back 3, and the Walker/Trippier partnership almost as duel right backs. But a back 3 with 2 wing backs and 2 DMs is so void of positivity. And then a #10 in Mount who's job seemed to be an additional runner and ball winner than a creative attacking player just made it so ultra-defensive. I do quite like Mount, but that's not the job he has for Chelsea. Kane as a false 9 was so effective, but they did nothing with all that space Kane created by dropping into midfield. What even was the gameplan? They had an idea that worked but didn't follow up.

Using Grealish merely as an impact sub late on, not using one of the most prolific attacking players in Europe in Sancho pretty much at all, uninspiring like for like subs, or subbing off the sub because he's afraid to change the shape and actually go for it were just a constant throughout the competition. The Henderson for Rice sub last night was just cowardly and pointless. Rice was among the better players last night, and Henderson came on and was awful.

I can't understand how at least one of Grealish or Sancho were not certain starters in this team.

 

[Hammondo]

Which one of Walker, Maguire, Stones, Shaw, Kane, Graelish, Sancho, Sterling can't keep the ball? Even Rice and Henderson are decent at keeping things ticking over even if they aren't the most ambitious. These aren't some league two cloggers. These are quality players, all of whom are very capable on the ball.

Compared to the Italian team, all of our midfield and defence in terms of touch, control, and passing were far behind.

 

[Ish]

one of the most negative managers of all time?

England played like a small team with an inferior squad

the amount of attacking talent neglected was criminal

Rashford, Sancho, Foden, Grealish all bench players. Bellingham as a CM option. All other managers would kill for those options. Meanwhile, Mancini had to make do with Immobile and Belotti.

 

[Kush]

He's an absolute complete fecking idiot I'm afraid.

He's got a collection of the best attacking players in the world and the best he can do in a European Championship final is start with 8 defenders and then bring Saka on to try and help win the game.

..then he wastes 2 subs on people who he wants to take a penalty, who both miss - what kind of management even is this by the way? The "tactics" of gambling on a penalty shootout. Like tactically investing all your savings on lottery tickets. As soon as you bring people on to take a penalty, you increase the pressure on those players to score x10, which if anything makes you less likely to win a shootout...and one of them was Sancho...what possible credentials at important penalty taking does Sancho have for Southgate to put him in that situation?

3 players now where one of the defining moments of their career will be missing a penalty in a European chamionship final, because their manager was a moron.

the PLAYERS don't get the credit they deserve. Southgate had every possible piece of luck handed to him on a plate to the point it almost beggared belief, and still royally fecked it up. If he managed a top club side he'd last about 3 months.

Our own manager did this a month and a half ago in a European final.

Ironic thing is, you have a very different energy in judging Southgate today and Ole back then. Carry on.

 

[RedSinha]

The only reason I can even fathom regarding giving Saka the last penalty is the unpredictability of it. Same reason that Maguire went second. Maybe Southgate wanted to throw off Donnarumma, maybe the thought process was that Italy practised/researched penalties keeping the star players in mind.

It was a strange decision. Southgate is a strange, conservative manager.

Also, Donnarumma is fecking massive. When him and Pickford were moving towards the goal together, you could have predicted right then England stood no chance. Just his frame in front of goal must be so intimidating for a player.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Our own manager did this a month and a half ago in a European final.

Ironic thing is, you have a very different energy in judging Southgate today and Ole back then. Carry on.

Comparing our bench options to Englands though is a very different kettle of fish.

Daniel James, Mata, Amad or Sancho, Grealish, Rashford to change the game?

Obviously Ole should have made changes too, but I can understand why he was reluctant. Southgate has literally zero reasons not to change at least Mount, even Sterling should have been if he wasn't taking a penalty. Rashford and Sancho deserved at least 15 minutes to get warmed up ffs!

 

[Kush]

Comparing our bench options to Englands though is a very different kettle of fish.

Daniel James, Mata, Amad or Sancho, Grealish, Rashford to change the game?

Obviously Ole should have made changes too, but I can understand why he was reluctant. Southgate has literally zero reasons not to change at least Mount, even Sterling should have been if he wasn't taking a penalty. Rashford and Sancho deserved at least 15 minutes to get warmed up ffs!

I don't disagree with what you wrote. I was only picking the posters point of "gambling on a penalty shoot-out, which is a lottery" which is exactly what both managers did. In our case, we actually had momentum since we were the one to equalize, but we never pushed and instead settled for a shootout.

Besides, Ole didn't even sub his best GK in for the shoot-out. Not to mention, him keeping Rashford for pretty much entirety of the match when he was stinking the place out. Both Amad/James would've offered more with fresh legs. Anyways, it's all in the past. I see so many parallels between Ole and Southgate, it's not even funny. So, it's amusing to see such wildly different takes for posters when judging these two managers.

 

[lilcurt]

Our own manager did this a month and a half ago in a European final.

Ironic thing is, you have a very different energy in judging Southgate today and Ole back then. Carry on.

There are massive parallels between Ole and Gareth. The two holding midfielders and refusal to really try and outright win games.

I'm equally critical of both. In both cases they reached finals so you can't claim their way doesn't have merit. It's just not the style we want to see, when you lose it will always feel like you had more in reserve and you'll be resentful for the style.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Our own manager did this a month and a half ago in a European final.

Ironic thing is, you have a very different energy in judging Southgate today and Ole back then. Carry on.

Behave yourself. We dominated that game and could not beat their low block. Ole also didn't hang his kids out to dry with idiotic penalty selections.

 

[mark_a]

Southgate's decisions not to gamble * just paid off in the semi but not in the final. Viewed from one angle, England played the "best team in the tournament" who were unable to beat them, but from another, they had a lead over the "best team in the tournament" for most of the game & when it was obvious something needed to change, they didn't make a change. Contrasted with Italy who did make a change which turned the game around. For me, absolutely indefensible tactical failure from Southgate. For once, England had a good squad, not just a handful of individuals and a Plan A but nothing else. The one bonus on seeing his starting XI was to then see the bench options, which premier league manager wouldn't kill for those options to be able to bring on!!

I have to say, I did have that realisation before the game: "It's Mancini vs Southgate!" Easy to get swept along with the optimism, but that was the reality.

And all this is before we get to the penalty shitshow, or how he stuck on Sancho and Rashford just for penalties. Really amateur stuff. Why not stick them on sooner? What have you got to lose? Even after Italy equalised, it was obvious we needed some fresh legs, nevermind that we had a £multi-million bench!

A big missed chance, when other results had really fallen for England.

One interesting thing when it comes to England. This is one time where English fans get to learn a little of what it's like to be a United fan. Everyone is out to belittle your achievement and being "anyone but England".


* Not really much of a gamble really, changing things with 20 mins to go when things are clearly getting away from you and key players are tired, not playing well or just not getting the ball (Rice, Mount, Kane ...)

 

[The Hilton]

T

Their midfield and defence are way better technically than ours. Attackers our are better, but that's not enough.

Nah I have to disagree. The midfield is technically a bit better, but defence? Chiellini and Bonucci are top defenders, but technically Maguire (who was colossal for England) is way ahead, as is Shaw, even Stones.

The difference last night wasn't technical, it was that one manager used his squad, and one would prefer zombies shambling around the pitch than to risk using his.

 

[Kush]

Behave yourself. We dominated that game and could not beat their low block. Ole also didn't hang his kids out to dry with idiotic penalty selections.

I have no interest in wasting my energy by engaging with you on Ole. I'd get a more rational discourse out of Ekeke and Smalling. So, no thanks.

 

[Hammondo]

Nah I have to disagree. The midfield is technically a bit better, but defence? Chiellini and Bonucci are top defenders, but technically Maguire (who was colossal for England) is way ahead, as is Shaw, even Stones.

The difference last night wasn't technical, it was that one manager used his squad, and one would prefer zombies shambling around the pitch than to risk using his.

Man you're blind.

 

[The Hilton]

Man you're blind.

Perhaps, but at least I can formulate an argument beyond a childish outburst. I also did so respectfully, which makes your post even more unnecessary.

 

[RedC]

He is like the past it Jose, the game last night brought back so many memories of us going 1 up early, only to sit on that lead until we inevitably conceded, and looked rattled from only defending for most of the game.

 

[11101]

The final loss falls fully on his shoulders.

I cant decide if the initial lineup worked as designed, or if our ultra defensive wing back setup was just meant to keep their wing play under control and had the happy side effect of allowing us to overload their flanks. Either way, the positives end there. Mancini responded and Southgate froze.

Our best players forward of the defence are Kane, Sterling, Rashford, Foden, Sancho and Grealish. Four of the six sat on the bench all game twiddling their thumbs. Every man and his dog could see we needed them to come on and give us some kind of outlet. Kane was shocking in the second half and Southgate's solution was Saka. It's especially frustrating to lose knowing we played with one hand behind our backs, our best players didn't even play.

We will not win anything with Southgate in charge, and this squad is too good to waste 4 or 5 years waiting for the FA to realise that. Mancini showed what a proper manager does.




I'm also furious he threw two of our young players under the bus the way he did. It was the biggest game of their lives and he brought them on so late they could barely touch the ball before their penalty. Solksjaer is going to need to work hard to get their heads right for the start of the season.

 

[DixieDean]

I've decided to not follow England games any more with this fella in charge. Too much blood boiling every game. I'll change my mind if i hear he's changed his mind about his playing style. If not, I'm out until he's gone.

I'm sure the whole England team will miss my presence.

 

[Redlambs]

So on reflection in the morning...yep, still his fault. He gets credit for his man management and bring the squad together, but he's tactically inept.

I'll say it again, that's why he's fecked for a club management job after England. He'll get one somewhere, but fail over and over.

 

[RUCK4444]

I bite my tongue where Southgate is concerned as I don’t want to fall into the trap I feel many people do with Ole and write him off without looking at the many aspects in what’s needed from the manager.

However, as a neutral, watching England and actually wanting them to do well is a hard slog with him in charge so I can appreciate England fans not being his biggest fan.

You have to look at the tools he has at his disposal here, it’s a very very talented team, stocked in most positions.

Kane should not be played so deep, he’s one of the best no 9’s in Europe and he’s playing in midfield most games.
This along with favouritism of players like Mount and Saka are a frustration.

Grealish isn’t as good as some believe but he absolutely has to play in this England team. He gets you up the pitch and either retains possession or wins a foul, no brainer for him to be on the pitch a lot more.

The penalty taker selection (which he’s confirmed was his selection) is a disgrace really when you weigh up everything involved, especially allowing for his own experience in that situation. Rashford and Sancho should not have been thrown on last minute for these and Saka should not have been taking that last pen, look at the other players available with experience.

You can say he’s done well but only really tested by Germany and lost to Italy, the other games you would expect this England team to win comfortably.

 

[charlenefan]

Time to rename this thread

Southgate doesn't deserve the credit he gets

 

[DixieDean]

So on reflection in the morning...yep, still his fault. He gets credit for his man management and bring the squad together, but he's tactically inept.

I'll say it again, that's why he's fecked for a club management job after England. He'll get one somewhere, but fail over and over.

I was thinking if England are going to keep him maybe we could find ourselves a great number 2 for him. Who does the majority of tactical work.

 

[Deery]

Deserves feck all credit he just wasted the best chance England had at a major trophy and did it with pure arrogance.

 

[DixieDean]

Deserves feck all credit he just wasted the best chance England had at a major trophy and did it with pure arrogance.

He's too just limited a coach.

 

[GhastlyHun]

His match plan and game management reminds me starkly of late stage Löw. Sitting on an absolute wealth of attacking players and playing park the bus instead.

 

[Deery]

He's too just limited a coach.

Believed his own hype I think wouldn’t change the formation, wouldn’t play Grealish, and left his attacking options on the bench.

 

[Renegade]

Petrified to make subs. You see how pro active Mancini was in comparison? Verrati one of the best players on the pitch and he had no problem taking him off when he was blowing. The similarities between Ole and Southgate is striking.

 

[Strelok]

People like to pretend that its either playing all your star players out of positions OR Southgate's anti football. Like these are the only 2 options. Its not. Southgate doesnt get credit for stopping one mistake and making another instead.

What England needs is a good manager. One who can coach them well and is good tactically. A modern 4-3-3 with the following lineup could have easily taken the game to Italy and beaten them.

------------------Pickford
Walker--Stones--Maguire--Shaw
---------------------Rice
-------------Philips--Grealish
----Sterling----Kane--Sancho

With Mount, Bellingham, Foden and Rashford all competing with the above. The reason Southgate didnt play Grealish and Sancho was not for the balance of the team. Its the same reason Mourinho would prefer Perisic/Willian over Sancho/Rashford. Its because they were not risk free enough for him. Its because they are not "industrious" or "put in a shift" or whatever. Its because Southgate is a coward.

Agreed with you but the lineup is still a bit too defensive imo.

The quality of the back four is more than enough to require Rice imo. I'd go with Phillips - Foden - Grealish. As much as I dislike Foden because of his cocky face and being a City player he's obviously a great footballer. You'd force most of teams on earth to sit back and worry for their life with that midfield and attacking line. Can't think of a team can beat all that, at least on paper. Probably only France on their good day.

 

[cyberman]

Fans and pundits like to blame Jose for his treatment of Shaw but the free pass Gareth gets is ridiculous. He had him out in the international wilderness for a long time himself when Luke deserved to at least be in the squad.

 

[MDFC Manager]

feck off, you clueless cnut.

I second this

 

[Wibble]

You're a moron. That's the only kind if person who is prepared to think anyone gets to a final by being handed every possible piece of luck. And I'm putting you on ignore.

Harshly put but Noodle wasn't at all wrong.

 

[Wibble]

Who the feck requires touches on pitch to participate in a penalty shoot out?

Does it depend if they are left or right footed?

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

In the second minute, our centre back overlapped our right wing back, who crossed to our left wing back to score.

Once. We looked threatening in that manner just once.

That kind of attacking intent from the full backs was essential and needed to be near constant with such a defensive line up.

 

[TheGame]

From looking at analysis his negativity has escaped criticism. All seems to be on the penalty shootout.

 

[padzilla]

Petrified to make subs. You see how pro active Mancini was in comparison? Verrati one of the best players on the pitch and he had no problem taking him off when he was blowing. The similarities between Ole and Southgate is striking.

Sadly very true but Southgate has much more depth to choose from too.

 

[UncleBob]

....... who is prepared to think anyone gets to a final by being handed every possible piece of luck.....

Luck is always involved. A different group and England would've had to play Belgium and Spain. Instead they played Germany, Ukraine and Denmark (It could've potentially been Sweden and Czech). The winner of Englands group vs whoever came second in group F was always the most obvious choice for a finalist.

It was the same in the World Cup, not really any competition until Croatia.

 

[kthanksbye]

They will crash out against the first decent team they meet in Qatar, they're not a "well drilled defensive unit" they play 7 defensive players sometimes 8, there's a difference.
They're incapable of keeping the ball and sustaining any sort of pressure on the opposition.