It's official: we're keeping Dragic!
NBA 2021-2022
- Thread starter elmo
- Start date
And a big sigh of relief was heard all over the US today...
He is good not great. We are talking about a subpar shooter and defender, his rebound and assists stats are impressive but that's about it.
Yeah, even as the resident Westbrook fan here calling him great - at this point in his career - is a stretch. He can have great games but he's average to good most of the time. With stretches of actively hurting his team.
Yeah but put him along side Lebron and Davis he’s bound to be even better than he is now, no?
Maybe. I honestly don't know how it will play out. They're a weird fit.
No, you are talking about a not particularly efficient, high usage player that on paper doesn't fit what Davis and James. He isn't a better rebounder than Davis and isn't a better table setter than James, he also doesn't provide the one thing that Davis and James could use which is an efficient not high usage scorer. The lakers don't need more rebound, they don't really need a primary ball handler unless for some reason James decides that he doesn't want to be that man. On paper Westbrook seems to only be a plus if he runs the second unit but the difference between him and schroder is marginal on both ends of the court, I don't know if he is the best use of 44m.
Now I'm not saying that it definitely won't work but it's very bold to say that he guarantees a ring, he doesn't even guarantee to avoid a first round exit.
I think the Westbrook trade will be a massive bust (unless we can trade him at the deadline?) but we do need a primary ball handler.
James is your primary ball handler. You need a secondary ball handler and someone that can lead the second unit efficiently.
Let's be honest, real reason why LeBron wants Westbrook is so Russ can go triple double mode in regular season while LeBron gets his customary rest during it so he's healthy for the playoffs.
Suppose we’ll have to just wait and see, but we’re talking about a former MVP and multiple allstar player, I think he’ll be able to adapt his game to suit the lakers, if he plays similar to Dwayne Wade him and Lebron could link up well and he is fast on the counter so he’ll take a lot of pressure off Davis and Lebron to sprint up the court.
At 37 Lebron isn’t getting any younger and they’ll need Westbrook to carry the load for him in parts of the season keeping him fresh for the finals, so holding the ball won’t be a problem with the team.
But he isn't Dwayne Wade whether we are talking about defense or shooting. And the fact that Lebron isn't getting younger is an argument against the idea that simply adding a player like Westbrook guarantees a ring. Also Westbrook is a former MVP and multiple allstar based on empty triple doubles.
I probably sound harsh but I'm not saying that Westbrook isn't a good player, I'm saying that he is nothing more than that. Also the Lakers are an elite defensive team that relies on relatively low pace(bottom 10 in the league), the point that you make about Westbrook sprinting is actually one of the biggest question marks about his fit with the Lakers, he isn't at his best in an half court game, so in order to be cohesive someone will have to play out of character and with this old team that lacks shooting it's very risky to crank up the pace and give more possessions to the opposition.
If it works, it's going to be interesting to see how they did it. One option could be to have two clear different paces one led by Lebron and then the second unit led by Westbrook. To me it's even more awkward than when he joined the Rockets.
I’m a Celtics fan anyway so I’ll be happy enough if the Lakers don’t do well with Westbrook, they just seem to have bolstered their team very well with a lot of experienced old heads, let’s just hope they all run out of steam come playoffs..
You what mate? Westbrook is not just a good player, he is undoubtedly an all time great. These are his teams records when he gets those empty triple doubles:
14/15 7-4 64%
15/16 18-0 100%
16/17 33-9 78%
17/18 20-5 80%
18/19 24-10 71%
19/20 5-3 62%
20/21 16-13 55%
Overall: 123-44 74%-win percentage = 61-win pace over 82 games.
Per StatMuse, Russell Westbrook statistically is the most efficient clutch scorer this season (20/21) (65.9eFG%)
His offense has obviously taken a dip. He's a poor 3 point shooter and his ft % has dropped quite a bit( still a career 80%) but he's still very good. With less on his plate i expect his overall points, rebounds, assists to go down but he will be better defensively and more efficient.
It's empty because it doesn't translate to winning anything meaningful. His triple doubles don't lead to success in the playoff when he has to face good teams that force him in an half court offense. And he was supposed to have less on his plate with the Rockets and didn't make a difference. I'm not willing to put any faith in a 32 years old player that hasn't adapted his game when he was playing alongside some of the best players in the league, there is no reason to think that it's going to happen now.
His stats go down a bit in the playoffs , the same as 99% of players but he's still a 25/8/8 guy even with his limitations and still a great player. Russ will be Russ, and Lebron will be Lebron. The lakers success will depend on the kind of year AD has.
And it doesn't translate to winning, he gets his stats but he doesn't lead his team to winning games against good opponents. And I agree regarding AD, he is the difference maker behind Lebron, if he plays at his best the lakers will be a tough opponent as they would be with any of the players they had instead of Westbrook.
A lot of the rumours are that James is going off ball more. But I guess when it matters, it'll be Bron handling.
This is basically a result based opinion. Would you say the same about Dame or Harden or Paul George?
It has to since Harden and PG both played with Russ
After watching Australia throughout the Olympics, Exum has to sack his agent if he's not getting any offers from NBA teams.
Well if we are going to make projections about the contribution of a player when it comes to results then we better use actual results as evidence particularly when we are talking about a 32 years old player, not a young player with small sample size.
And I would say that even though I think that they are all better than Westbrook, with Harden being significantly better, there is a question mark on all of them. I rate Harden and think that he is great but there has been questions about how he fits with other star players but there is little doubts that Harden makes lesser player look very good, despite his iso tendencies and his high usage, he manages to make other better offensively. George his strangely inconsistent in the playoff he ranges from great to terrible for no obvious reason, Dame is always a great scorer but he can't really guard anyone efficiently though it's fair to say that he hasn't been surrounded by a group of solid defenders.
The Blazic guy from Slovenia looks worth a punt too,
It has to since Harden and PG both played with Russ
That's actually what I find the most perplexing the fact that he already played with this level of player makes me wonder why anyone would definitely think that it's a recipe for success.
He was that nutter that gave up the crucial tech by pushing Mills after the whistle was blown right?
He looked pretty good apart from that
So you would have said the same against AD before he won his title with the lakers. Cp3 is a great player regardless of whether he ends up with a ring or not. Surely you can see the flaw in using team based results against an individual player. Anyways your statement " he gets his stats but he doesn't lead his team to winning games against good opponents " is just not true. There are plenty of examples to pick from but off the top of my head Thunder warriors game 4 2016, Thunder mavs game 5 or 6 2016, and Rockets thunder game 2, the 50 point triple double game.
Yup also stepped up big near the end in the semifinal against France. ( also gave up a silly tech late in that game iirc)
Russ game is pretty similar to LeBron, just that he's less efficient at it. Stick him as LeBron's backup and the Lakers can still run the same offensive system and LeBron doesn't need to play that many minutes in the regular season which keeps him fresh for the playoffs. Once the playoffs come, Russ just switches to being the main scoring option off the bench or play together with LeBron as a decoy to take pressure off LeBron as the main ball handler.
That's why I don't think that it adds to their first unit and I have doubts about how effective it will be in the playoffs.
There is a question mark on all players that do not lead their team to winning despite solid support and good individual stats, not everyone is great, not everyone is unquestionable. And what I stated is a generalization of his performances, it's not supposed to be taken as an absolute truth, you are definitely going to find examples when his team beat a good team. Also Westbrook has good stats in most games whether his team wins or not, that's the point of the sentence you quoted, if you take the example that you gave about 2016, Russell has good stats when they lose too but more often than not it doesn't translate to winning in the playoff that's the story of his career.
We're going around in circles at this point. I take your point that winning a title provides a checkmark that validates a lot of players and can make someone unquestionably great. To me greatness involves a number of factors and in a team sport the title is but one minor factor. Westbrook, Cp3, Harden and Lillard are all great to me whether they win a ring or not.
Well that's not my point at all, I didn't try to define greatness for all players and didn't attach it to a title. I meant that a player that has great individual stats that do not translate to winning meaningful games has his greatness in question. In the case of Westbrook, the issue with looking solely at his stats is that he generally has good stats whether we are talking about triple doubles, double doubles or being very close to it, he has great games with good stats and poor games with good stats too, which was the point of the sentence you quoted. We are talking about a player that often matches triple doubles or double doubles with double digits negative +/-.
He is fun to watch, he is a good player, he gives everything all the time but his overall contribution to winning is questionable.
Except as i've posted and you've admitted he's won plenty of meaningful games. The only thing he hasn't won is the title.
He is fun to watch, he is a great player, he gives everything most of the time and his contribution to winning is unquestionable. What is questionable is whether this current version of Westbrook is enough to help the lakers win another title with the current roster.
In the last 5 years(basically without Durant) he has gone beyond the first round of the playoffs once and he barely contributed.
Kemba of course. Autocorrection got me into this.
Brodie is a great player but his downfall is inefficient shooting (i.e. he doesn't have a good enough jumper) and lack of playoff wins as his teams aren't good enough.
You can't be the triple double leader in NBA history without being a great player. Sorry, but no ifs or buts about it. He's one of the most competitive and driven guys in league, yet has the talent to match.
How it works with this Lakers team will be interesting. As Brodie ages and loses his explosiveness, I hope he can improve his shot like DRose has done, which has prolonged his NBA career.
You can't be the triple double leader in NBA history without being a great player. Sorry, but no ifs or buts about it. He's one of the most competitive and driven guys in league, yet has the talent to match.
How it works with this Lakers team will be interesting. As Brodie ages and loses his explosiveness, I hope he can improve his shot like DRose has done, which has prolonged his NBA career.
Year 1 without Durant- Wins mvp, averages tripe double, leads the thunder to the sixth seed where they lose to the 3rd seed rockets. If you think this season proves your hypothesis then ok.
Year 2 without Durant- another triple double year, league leader in assists, loses to jazz in the first round 4th seed vs 5th seed, plays better than Paul george in that series. You could say that was a failure but i put more blame on PG personally. Had one of his best ever games in an elimination game.
Year 3 without Durant- another triple double year, another league leader in assists, loses to trailblazers in the first round, 6th seed vs 3rd seed. George played better this year and westbrook didn't shoot it as well so you could consider it a failure but they were the lower seed.
Year 4 without Durant- Goes to Houston, bad basketball chemistry fit with Harden, Gets Covid, gets injured, loses to the eventual champion lakers.
Year 5 without Durant- the wizards aren't doing shit even with Jordan. They had missed the playoffs the past two years and he got them there as an 8th seed only to lose to the 1st seed 76ers.
Like i said if you take all this to mean he is just a good player then fair enough. He's only lost one series where they were favored to win and that was more because PG choked.
So you don't consider that he is part of the reason they have rarely been favored to win or have better seedings? For me your are making my point, he has his stats, they are impressive but his team ends up with a lower seed and lower expectations to win even when he is playing with other all stars. You think that it's everyone else's fault and I think that he is parts of the problem. Now I can accept the idea that he is great, if that's your issue with my statement.
Yes that is the main issue i had with your statement so I'm glad we agree on that now. However as to your point I've bolded, I don't usually look at the best player on a team who is consistently performing like the best player and say he is the reason i have a lower seed or i can't win. I'd say he is a big reason they have a chance to win or got into the playoffs to begin with. In those 5 years post Durant i think he overperformed in 3 out of five years. Does his game have issues in the playoffs especially against the best of the best absolutely but it doesn't cancel out all his other great qualities.