Funny isnt it.
Criticism is fine (and encouraged) but there are some criticisms thrown at Ole that don't make any sense
- Thread starter Wumminator
- Start date
Good thread, agree with all the points, Ole deserves more respect from the ones who are criticizing him
Ole is not a poor tactician, but I don't think he's good enough to win us the PL or the CL, we do some things well like counter attack and some things not so well like build from the back, he's in no way perfect, but he's pretty darn good and we wouldn't be where we are in terms of squad stability and rebuilding if it was not him.
While Ole deserves most of the credit for our away record, it is also important to acknowledge the fact that it's a different gravy doing it with fans back in the stadium. There's no way we're replicating last seasons away record, our home form has to improve drastically. Will Sancho and Ronaldo be enough to do that, only time will tell, but so far Ole has not done a lot of things wrong.
Ole is not a poor tactician, but I don't think he's good enough to win us the PL or the CL, we do some things well like counter attack and some things not so well like build from the back, he's in no way perfect, but he's pretty darn good and we wouldn't be where we are in terms of squad stability and rebuilding if it was not him.
While Ole deserves most of the credit for our away record, it is also important to acknowledge the fact that it's a different gravy doing it with fans back in the stadium. There's no way we're replicating last seasons away record, our home form has to improve drastically. Will Sancho and Ronaldo be enough to do that, only time will tell, but so far Ole has not done a lot of things wrong.
Of course. I honestly think 99% of us fans just want to feel like we’re in the hunt for major trophies again. I also feel that’s a fair thing to feel when you look the squad quality and depth now.
This thread judging by replies just isn’t listening to the more balanced posts against it. Aside from a few trolls, no one thinks he’s inept, no one thinks he’s a PE teacher, no one wants him gone just because they dislike him.
People still doubt him - which is fair - and question his big game record - again fair - and question his coaching team/setup - again fair. There’s nothing really else to it and it only changes if we can win a major trophy/be very very close to winning one. That has to be this season.
I think I'm similar to a great number of those labelled 'Ole doubters' in that I love the man, and there is virtually no manager I'd rather see United win with than him. But at the same time, I feel like our results outperform our performances, and that we still don't play like a top, top team.
A good illustration: hopefully many of you watched the CL semi-finals last season. Each of the 4 teams played significantly better football than us. By that I mean they were composed, controlled, technically-sound and had clear patterns and style.
On a given day have we beaten most of them? Yes, absolutely. And of course we've finished above some in the league under Ole. But do we look like a better football team? No, I don't think we do.
Chelsea, Liverpool and City play better football than we do. It may end up that Ole once again outperforms them - and at that stage I'll stop doubting. But right now, we appear to me to be the 4th best team in the league. And this is year 3 of Ole, he's spent on apparently his players and so I really think we should be at least on par with two of those three. I believe City's spending combined with long term planning and Pep mean any year they don't win the league it's a joke.
Chelsea have spent a lot, but now have a formidable squad and a good manager. I think they'll easily finish above us.
Liverpool despite having pretty limited squad depth still look a cut above us when they can field the majority of the first XI.
So we'll see. Do any of the Ole fans honestly believe if you could swap managers with any of the other 3 we'd get worse with this squad?
A good illustration: hopefully many of you watched the CL semi-finals last season. Each of the 4 teams played significantly better football than us. By that I mean they were composed, controlled, technically-sound and had clear patterns and style.
On a given day have we beaten most of them? Yes, absolutely. And of course we've finished above some in the league under Ole. But do we look like a better football team? No, I don't think we do.
Chelsea, Liverpool and City play better football than we do. It may end up that Ole once again outperforms them - and at that stage I'll stop doubting. But right now, we appear to me to be the 4th best team in the league. And this is year 3 of Ole, he's spent on apparently his players and so I really think we should be at least on par with two of those three. I believe City's spending combined with long term planning and Pep mean any year they don't win the league it's a joke.
Chelsea have spent a lot, but now have a formidable squad and a good manager. I think they'll easily finish above us.
Liverpool despite having pretty limited squad depth still look a cut above us when they can field the majority of the first XI.
So we'll see. Do any of the Ole fans honestly believe if you could swap managers with any of the other 3 we'd get worse with this squad?
He should win if he is good manager. But competing for the PL title or the CL title (without winning it) is evidence he is improving and can challenge. If he somehow can compete in both competitions then I will be happy the board giving him another season to prove he can actually win it. But I will never want a manager that is called "nearly won it" for 6 years at the club. And yes, I think we have a great squad, sure we have few problems in the squad but which team hasn't?
What did Sir Alex used to do if he wanted rid of a player?
True. I think it's too simple to say that a good manager should just encourage everyone who wants to stay. And clearly, that is not what OGS is generally doing - his first summer cleanout was pretty brutal, so we know that being clear with players he doesn't want around is in his repertoire. Hence, you'd have to assume that when he doesn't do that with Lingard, it's because he genuinely wants to keep him in the team.
Why exactly should he win? He doesn't have a better team than Chelsea, City or Liverpool. He's got a chance to win, sure, but it's not as if all he has to do is do his job well and then that happens. The competition is pretty fierce.
WH didn’t bid for lingard, they were seemingly put off by United’s valuationI'm not, and havent been part of the 'Ole Out' brigade, but i think the guy is soft. To me he should be telling the likes of Lingard that he has no future at the club and he needs to find a new club. I think he worries too much about the opposing teams, especially when away from home, instead of putting out the best team possible and letting the opposing team worry about us. I have nothing to base this on other than a hunch but i feel hes distant from the players, and only really talks to them as a group in team talks etc. I dont think he's good enough to reach that 'next level', and by that i mean SAF would walk this league imo with the players we have, no midield or not.
Having saiid all that, his away record is brilliant, and 'stats' wise his as good as anyone in the league, and has a better first 100 game record than Klopp, believe it or not.
So what do i know.
On the squad level, I think we have a better squad than Liverpool and Chelsea and we are on par with City. But even if the squad is slightly below the other 3 in quality (which is not according to many footballing experts), then if he is a good manager, then he should win the league. Otherwise what is the point of having a manger if we are relying on player quality only, we can put Wumminator as the manager and we can win if we have the best squad in the league. After all Wumminator know more about football according to him than the others here in the forum because he is match going fan.
That hipster line is so tiring. I would seriously doubt that any but the most biased United fans would say Ole is a better manager than Rodgers. Fine, we might not like Rodgers due to his Liverpool connection, but he's won far more in his career than Ole and come much closer to winning a Premier League title (and before you bring up Suarez, I don't think he was any more talismanic for Liverpool than Bruno has been for us.)
I think Bielsa and Rafa have accomplished far more than Ole, and as for baggage, that is a very subjective term (hell people might cite Ole's treatment of Donny as some kind of baggage - I don't personally, but still.) The fact is that we love Ole because he's a legend for us and there'd be nothing sweeter than seeing him win it all with United. But I have no doubt that if he were some random Norwegian manager, with no United connection, whose managerial CV included a few titles in Norway and a relegation with Cardiff, then the majority on here would be out for blood.
I hate the whole Ole in/out contrived tribalism that the likes of Mark Goldbridge enjoy engaging in - I'm more in the 'the time for excuses is over' camp. I love Ole, but I have serious doubts.
If Ole isn't inept tactically and poor at changing the game then how and why in the feck we lost a European Cup final to the mighty Villarreal? Or semi final against Sevilla the year before? Did we have an inferior squad to them? Hell no. It was all about our coaching and in-game management issues.
The most obvious aspect of the well drilled teams is that they're punching above their weights and win their games through their tactical plans most of the time. Can we say the same about ourselves? Even when we won games under Ole, it wasn't because of our game plan or tactics but because the quality of our squad was far greater than the opponent basically.
Of course there were some games where we exploited oppositions' weaknesses and got a good victory like against City, PSG, Leipzig at home, Leeds etc. but you can't deny that their playing style suited us to a tee and provided a chance to counter for us. I thought that wasn't good enough when Mourinho was here. So his record against Pep etc. would be a brilliant accomplishment if were a midtable club. We're not.
The most I've been happy with Ole's tactical plan was the game against Spurs at home in Ole's first full season (Mourinho's first game at OT as Spurs manager). Our squad had serious holes at the time with the likes of Pereira, Lingard, Lindelöf, James constantly starting but we didn't park the bus and only look for a counter attack. We took the initiative, took the game to them and beat them convincingly. But unfortunately it was an exception rather than the rule. Claiming he's a good coach/tactician is just clutching at straws at this point really.
Now we have a much better squad, this is his 4th season (3rd full) and he won nothing so far. He did some really good signings and improved the atmosphere at the club. But it's time we demand the results and silverwares. He didn't spend that money only to improve the squad after all.
The most obvious aspect of the well drilled teams is that they're punching above their weights and win their games through their tactical plans most of the time. Can we say the same about ourselves? Even when we won games under Ole, it wasn't because of our game plan or tactics but because the quality of our squad was far greater than the opponent basically.
Of course there were some games where we exploited oppositions' weaknesses and got a good victory like against City, PSG, Leipzig at home, Leeds etc. but you can't deny that their playing style suited us to a tee and provided a chance to counter for us. I thought that wasn't good enough when Mourinho was here. So his record against Pep etc. would be a brilliant accomplishment if were a midtable club. We're not.
The most I've been happy with Ole's tactical plan was the game against Spurs at home in Ole's first full season (Mourinho's first game at OT as Spurs manager). Our squad had serious holes at the time with the likes of Pereira, Lingard, Lindelöf, James constantly starting but we didn't park the bus and only look for a counter attack. We took the initiative, took the game to them and beat them convincingly. But unfortunately it was an exception rather than the rule. Claiming he's a good coach/tactician is just clutching at straws at this point really.
Now we have a much better squad, this is his 4th season (3rd full) and he won nothing so far. He did some really good signings and improved the atmosphere at the club. But it's time we demand the results and silverwares. He didn't spend that money only to improve the squad after all.
Have you considered that the guys managing those 3 other squads that might be slightly above ours in quality may also be good managers? If you're a good manager competing against other good managers who have slightly better squads, you could be expected to win because......what?
The argument of Ole is average level manager is daft considering the fact that he stabled the ship and steadily accumulating better results over 3 seasons.
3 managers before him won something, but they certainly failed to make our club sustainable.
Based on his records for the past 3 seasons, he has proven to be a bright and upcoming manager ready to win things.
Average manager is Arteta, who failed to do what Ole did.
3 managers before him won something, but they certainly failed to make our club sustainable.
Based on his records for the past 3 seasons, he has proven to be a bright and upcoming manager ready to win things.
Average manager is Arteta, who failed to do what Ole did.
Bla bla bla. The point of the ole out camp is that he is verifiably not an elite manager in the class of klopp, guardiola, flick, tuchel and is arguably far inferior to Conte and Zizou.
We are Manchester united, and should have an elite manager to go with elite players. They feel that replacing him at this point is worth the risk as he is not progressing as fast as he should. Nobody hates Ole or thinks he is worse than Arteta or LVG.
We are Manchester united, and should have an elite manager to go with elite players. They feel that replacing him at this point is worth the risk as he is not progressing as fast as he should. Nobody hates Ole or thinks he is worse than Arteta or LVG.
Yeah, like they know, and like you can treat a scantily founded opinion as if it was not just a fact, but the only fact that matters.
NOBODY knows at this stage if OGS is an elite manager. We'll find out over the next season or two.
"Verifiably"? Really?
Go on then, explain how that can be verified.You're being too nice. He's not even close to being average.
Wonder if Zizou could have won a CL with Molde tbh.
Excellent, excellent post!
With the players we have in the squad, we should not be putting on the shit show we did against Southampton and Wolves. Yes, results can go against us, but to play
that type of football where we did not create a single chance for the strikers points to a huge problem.
The opinion makes some of these people angry already
See just above; somebody asking me to prove that ole is not as good a manager as the first four I mentioned.I'm pretty much here and have been for awhile.
There's no real excuses this season. Yeah you can point to our weak midfield, but there's more than enough talent to at least play great football albeit with a bit of a midfield weak spot. He should be able to make the most of some ridiculous talent at his disposal.
He's done and doing a fantastic job, perfect tonic after Jose. But I can't get rid of the nagging feeling he's not quite got what it takes to get us over the biggest finish lines.
Not going to point to our performances thus far this season, far too only to do that, we're only three games in.
I hope I'm wrong, I'd love to be. He's got my full support totally. I want to see him and us win the lot.
I like him and would love him to do well but have yet to be convinced.
The Villareal game sums it up for me. Not good enough on the day when it comes down to fine margins. In game management is key for me. The really top managers know when something isn't working and adapt the system or change the players on the pitch - even if it's a big call. I'm not sure he's brave enough to do that.
Hopefully he's learned from that.
The Villareal game sums it up for me. Not good enough on the day when it comes down to fine margins. In game management is key for me. The really top managers know when something isn't working and adapt the system or change the players on the pitch - even if it's a big call. I'm not sure he's brave enough to do that.
Hopefully he's learned from that.
Yup attention seeking drivel. His shtick is to apply all the context (and excuses) in the world to Ole and Man Utd but apply zero context whatsoever to our rivals. Easiest example of that is asking how can we be hailing Klopp and Tuchel as geniuses when Ole finished above both last season. It's a silly point and he knows it, just as every football fan who watched the PL last year knows.
The difference between Wumminator and any Ole detractor on here is that if Ole were to win the PL or CL this year, I honestly believe he would get the whole fanbase on his side. If we were to go trophyless again ending the season poorly, you'd have Wumminator and the other usual suspects making these same types of threads again next season. The goal posts are always changing with Ole's staunch supporters.
Those are not excuses, but facts and some very good points.
They say individual brilliance.
But I hate to break it to them, those coaching stuff work on real football stuff, they know what are they doing.
I'm still struggling to believe armchair experts can detect Carrick, Mckenna or Ole lack of tactical knowledge. It's baffling, really.
I will not enter another debate of the squad quality. I believe our squad both starting 11 and depth are better than Chelsea and Liverpool and we have to agree to disagree. But you are just proving my point otherwise, all three managers won titles. Ole did not. Even a small trophy like EL against a small team he could not get it through. There are many signals and signs that he is not sharp when it come to pushing the team that extra bit to win trophies even if we are playing small clubs, imo this is alarming. It means no matter who the opponent in the finals stages, we will crumble, because our manager does not have it in him.
One last question, do you think Liverpool, Chelsea or City would want to swap their managers with our's if they have the chance?
Well said
Playing the CV card. I see.
Ole will win something this season.
The fruits has rippened!
"and encouraged" 
Very well said.
Not at all. What did Tuchel win before he joined Chelsea? His CV compared to Pep and klopp not that impressive, but many big clubs appointed him (BVB, PSG and Chelsea) based on the football he produced, not the titles he won. It is not only lack major honors that the criticism is directed to Ole, but also the quality of football his team plays.
I agree.
It's hard to see what can be done, though.
We don't want RAWKish moderation on here (at least I don't want that): as in, "don't post negative comments about the manager and/or team unless you explain yourself in a 5000 word essay, preferably with graphs and lots of arrows".
Great thread, every single point you made was accurate… there’s just no pleasing some people, we’ve had a great window, signed a world class CB, a winger who will become world class, and of course the best player in the world. I get that our midfield needs sorting but everything can’t get done at once, there are ways around it that ole needs to figure out… we signed VDB and he can’t even get a game. Play VDB and mctominay and I reckon we see a massive improvement then sticking with Fred.
Yeah, you've a point.
The problem is - as always - the extreme polarization which tends to creep in everywhere.
Ole-inners on the whole do not encourage criticism. The default reaction is not to treat criticism as welcome and valuable. This is understandable, to some degree, because there's so much drivel spouted by certain declared Ole-outers. It's not right, though - but like I said above, it's the bloody polarization again: too many posters make it their business to defend an "in" or "out" position rather than ignoring blatantly stupid/unreasonable posts and focusing on discussing genuine pros and cons like they should.
This is a very silly thesis you've put forth. You've quite clearly convinced yourself Ole is above any criticism and are trying to obfuscate his strengths and weaknesses into a feel good thread. Some people go overboard with the negativity and others go overboard with the positivity. You're quite clearly in the second camp.
Probably nothing. Its only ever really at unbearable levels after a match so I just choose not to come here that day - which is a shame but it is what it is.
Pretty much all your points are opinions. I can give just as many/more reasons that refute them but they've all been said many times.
Yep - that's been my policy too (and when sober I usually manage to stick to it).
Whatever your view on Ole is, nobody can disagree that the club and squad is in a much better place now.
I often see that Ole needs to win this season because of his transfers and the players he has bought in. Dont you think Ole loves that? He wants that pressure - that's Man United.
Great thread. Agree with everything
I often see that Ole needs to win this season because of his transfers and the players he has bought in. Dont you think Ole loves that? He wants that pressure - that's Man United.
Great thread. Agree with everything
Such endless pessimism must be exhausting.