Yeeeeaaah, he also wanted to get Willian, Perisic, and Dier.
i think we're still better off now, no matter how poor Martial has been.
Why so many knee-jerk reactions and negativity 7 games in?
- Thread starter UnitedSofa
- Start date
i think we're still better off now, no matter how poor Martial has been.
There's a saying, we're going to start digging a well after the entire house is caught on fire.
Right, thanks for explaining - I was really tired last night so things weren’t computing as they should!
Still, you seem to be contradicting yourself here. You say United should be European elite especially with this squad and money spent and should be clearing the group but currently we are not and haven’t been for sometime, this giving the impression that Atalanta and Villarreal will pose a tough test for us in CL and YB will (and did) play against us like their CL final.
I am pragmatic. Like I said previously, I’d love to see Utd go deep into the CL and if I am honest I believe we will. But im realistic enough to know stuff can go and will wrong and there’s a chance we don’t. That’s football. That’s life.
This it though. It’s so early in the season that there literally is no damage. And you can’t sack a man just because possible damage is perceived by a section of our weird fan base!
Yeah we would be well worse off if we’d persisted with that dinosaur any longer.
Last edited:
But you cant just dismiss it by saying thats life. You don't leave you door open and if you get burgled say "Oh well thats life", "If you drive down the wrong side of the road and crash you don't say "thats life". You take steps to give yourself the best chance of the positive outcome and then if circumstances beyond your control prevent it, maybe then say "thats life".
Where do we draw the line here? Out of CL, out of top 4? No title challenge? mid table? how far down do we need to go before "thats football" and "thats life" becomes, hang on we have a solvable problem here?
Easy.
If we're out of CL, hey at least we're in the Europa League. We will dominate it!
If we're out of Europa, hey at least we're still in the FA cup!
If we're out FA cup, hey at least we're still mathematically challenging for top 4!
If we're out of top 4, hey I'm so practical, that's just life!
Watch them shift their standards each time throughout the season. If all else fails, someone will bring out the Tara Fergie photo again.
Once again I make a general point and it gets pounced on and torn to pieces so that an out of context minute piece of it can be thrown back at me.
That’s life refers to the YB game, because I believe that you cannot foresee the red card because AWB gets those tackles right 99.9% of the time, and you can’t foresee Jesse being dumb enough to attempt that back pass and assist their striker with the last kick of the ball.
Everybody thought the best we could do was a draw against Villarreal, and to be fair we always draw against them but we won, it was an intriguing if not entertaining game and we came out on top. So forgive me if I don’t see the problem.
Agreed, nice summary.
One thing I will say is that its not going to take long to find out whether we have what it takes or not. City have a run coming up where I don't really see many opportunities for dropped points. Other than our head to head, they might only drop 2 points from the other 6 games. Winning them all is very possible. So in order to come out of that run of fixtures in contention we either a) beat City and drop no more than 5 points from our other 6 games or b) lose to City but win all our other games. Either way, that is going to need a major uptick in our overall performances, including statement wins over several of the better teams in the league.
Truly intransigent In/Out-ers will never be convinced either way, even if we finish 10th/win the league. But I think for fans in the middle, much of the debate will be settled in the next month or two.
Truly intransigent In/Out-ers will never be convinced either way, even if we finish 10th/win the league. But I think for fans in the middle, much of the debate will be settled in the next month or two.
Stands presently at 440m.
It’s not a bad start under a new manager, it’s not a bad start due to a mass of new players coming into the team, it’s not a bad start due to injury to a key player. It’s the same performances, same pattern of results as last season, the only difference now we have multi CL winners in our team who are not happy with a drawing every other game and his/their (include Varane) winning mentality is finally spreading to other players.
Look at the way Bruno talks after draws. He now talks like a winger whose disappointed and knows it’s not good enough
Look at the way CR7, Pogba, De Gea and a few others walked off the pitch after the draw Vs Everton. Last season after drawing Pogba, De Gea etc would be smiling after draws, Now finally they are demonstrating the mentality of those that expect and desire to be winning.
I appreciate the pushback against all the hyperbole, but it is a bad start. The question is, will it get better. I agree there's still good cause to hope it will.
The "problem" is you can list mitigating circumstances in almost every game but the entire point of successful teams is that they overcome these. How many times under Fergie were we under the cost and grabbed a 1-0 ugly win when there were issues or problems? Thats what made us winners. Winning teams dig in, they don't say "thats life".
West Ham in the Cup - understrength team - thats life
Young Boys - Player sent off and human error - Thats life
Villa - Missed penalty - thats life
All of the above are technically true but you have to look deeper when you have them all happening surely? Look at the game we won
West Ham - last minute goal and WH miss penalty - Thats life
Villarreal - last minute goal - Thats life
Thats 5 games where you could put the outcome down to unfortunate/fortunate factors. Thats half the games we have played so far. You cant leave half your games to chance an be successful. If you get a man sent off when you are 2-0 up it doesnt matter, neither does giving a silly goal away. Missing penalty doesnt matter when the game is already won. These things become significant when you aren't doing the other parts of the job.
Its always nice with a neutral opinion. Refreshing amongst all the biased shit flinging amogst United fans.That being said though, i dont think you give him enough credit for keeping a steady ship for so long, because it could have gone a hell of a lot worse than it did right after Jose left.
Also, despite there being some deadwood left i think hes done a very good job in assembling a very good squad. Yes, hes spent money, but as Jose and LvG showed, its perfectly possible to squander away vast sums on duds.
I agree on the bolded part as well, and thats why my patience with him is wearing thin. Hes been allowed both time and money now, and the performances so far this season has been way below expectations
The basic position is fairly straightforward in my opinion:
OGS was tasked with a monumental rebuild job when he took over - to set a club considered by everyone to be in deep crisis right, on and off the pitch. That included patiently building a new team good enough to contend over the next 2-3 seasons
He's delivered on that, with steady and major improvement through his first 2 1/2 seasons
Last season we were very good, but not yet a real PL contender. Which is on-schedule, or even ahead of schedule
This window, we have added such major pieces that it is impossible not to expect the team to be significantly better than it was last season
So far, we haven't been. In fact, we have probably been worse.
Then it's a question of where it goes from here. A lot of people here seem to have already made their minds up about that. I haven't, simply because there's no reason to. We'll see.
OGS was tasked with a monumental rebuild job when he took over - to set a club considered by everyone to be in deep crisis right, on and off the pitch. That included patiently building a new team good enough to contend over the next 2-3 seasons
He's delivered on that, with steady and major improvement through his first 2 1/2 seasons
Last season we were very good, but not yet a real PL contender. Which is on-schedule, or even ahead of schedule
This window, we have added such major pieces that it is impossible not to expect the team to be significantly better than it was last season
So far, we haven't been. In fact, we have probably been worse.
Then it's a question of where it goes from here. A lot of people here seem to have already made their minds up about that. I haven't, simply because there's no reason to. We'll see.
I can't remember when we last consistently dominated games.
Kķu
Possession wise, under LVG. We would regularly have the lions share of possession. Unfortunately it was the most soul destroying football I've ever witnessed. In terms of dominating and outscoring opponents, it was probably around 08-11. Although there were times we were more pragmatic in this era.
Van Gaal where we'd keep possession for practically 90 minutes, maybe? If you can call it dominating, as we didn't always score goals
People need to stop looking at one or two incidents in a game to make a conclusion on how we played.
We won / lost because this or that one single moment happened.
Game is played over 95+ minutes and our overall performances in all but one or two games this season has been borderline diabolical.
In isolation you can maybe accept a bad performance or two over the span of 10 games but 8 or 9 ?
Something is wrong when you keep putting in the same type of performances even though its obvious something is not working.
Seems to me, Ole is being out thought on a continual basis by second or third tier type managers with inferior players.
That alone has to be a worry going forward.
We won / lost because this or that one single moment happened.
Game is played over 95+ minutes and our overall performances in all but one or two games this season has been borderline diabolical.
In isolation you can maybe accept a bad performance or two over the span of 10 games but 8 or 9 ?
Something is wrong when you keep putting in the same type of performances even though its obvious something is not working.
Seems to me, Ole is being out thought on a continual basis by second or third tier type managers with inferior players.
That alone has to be a worry going forward.
It really is sad how often people throw out the term “knee jerk” to discredit criticism even when it’s laughably inapplicable to the point.
The current management has been in place for three years. There is nothing knee jerk about calling out it’s incompetence. It’s been painfully evident for a long time.
The current management has been in place for three years. There is nothing knee jerk about calling out it’s incompetence. It’s been painfully evident for a long time.
Great post.
Yeah no, dominating games isn't keeping possesion and passing backwards with no shots at goal.Van Gaal where we'd keep possession for practically 90 minutes, maybe? If you can call it dominating, as we didn't always score goals
Exactly this. I have been supporting Ole throughout and I said at the start of this season, this is where I will judge him.
7 games in, we have not improved our style, we have not learnt lessons from the past.
It is not knee jerk when you see us conceding chances from an attacking corner
Its not knee jerk when we are looking for one of our talents to save us
Our inability to pass out the back is poor.
People say we struggle against Low blocks, which we do, but we also struggle when teams implement a high press.
The only time we seem to do ok, is when we play a bigger team and we have 10 man behind the ball and counter attack.
That is not a sign of a top team or manager.
Simply because Ole plays McTom and Fred and they are crap. Every man, woman, dog can see that. BUT, every man, woman and dog can see that without them we are brutal at protecting the back four as well. Where is the midfield general, holding master that we obviously need since forever. If he was a hungry leader, it would help too.
Couldn't have said it better
Im the same as you. Fully behind Ole up until now, appreciating the good stuff he has done but with a few concerns. I said "this is it" at the start of the season as I felt he had almost everything he could want all in place to make a real go of it.
And here we are.
My thoughts aren't entirely "sack him now" but the concerns I have are really ones that have been there throughout his tenure so when people say "7 games is nothing" and "he needs to fine tune things" my thoughts are more "Whats going to change in the next three months that haven't in the last three years?" and thats what makes me think we are closer to need a change than the number of games played this season would normally suggest.
Don’t think you understood my post. It’s not a good start and there are no mitigating circumstances. Only hope is that now several of our players appear unhappy after draws
Yep exactly that. We made excuses for him last season, he didn't get the CB, didnt get RW and got top 2 and there was a stage we looked good. Then the same old story, everytime we get close, this team bottle it.
I saw enough progress to say maybe he could have a shot at the title however; the 7 games have confirmed its not possible.
Its not just 7 games like you say, its been 3 years of ups and downs, we cannot get consistency and we have seen it over the last 4 seasons, to win the league you have to go on a run of winning 10 in a row. I cannot see us doing this unfortunately.
I mean if we go out the CL and are out the title race by December, I think I will be edging towards sack now.
Our players and management should be forced to sit and watch every game we’ve played this season on a loop every day until they start pressing and working as a unit and break the malaise. We are sleepwalking through this season so far. I think we will see a fitter more pragmatic and ruthless group after the break. Ironically enough teams have been doing to us what we used to do so well in the big games. We need to counter that with an effective press and suffocate them. Hit them hard and early and draw them out on our terms and pick them off.
In that case, I do not appear to have understood what you were getting at, no. Sorry about that. I think for my part that there's a real possibility that adjusting to new key players, Ronaldo in particular, is bringing some transitional issues, but we'll find out quickly enough. In any case, it has to improve.
Boom. In a nutshell right here. Question marks? Yep, probably. Any reason to be thrown into a black pit of rage and depression and despair? No, not yet.
Olé has earned this season on the back of last season and with the money spent to have a crack at winning something. If he doesn’t we review at the end of the season. I really feel we are on the cusp of something and it will only take one trophy to open the floodgates again to another glorious era in our clubs history.
In answer to the title of the thread. Ole has been here for three years, has spent a fortune and has stated that there will be NO EXCUSES this season. He has been exposed as tactically inept and has won nothing and we look like not winning anything at this rate. Lucky against Villarreal, beaten by Aston Villa and almost lost to Everton. If that isn’t cause for concern and to look elsewhere, I don’t know what is. I predict a exit from the CL group and back to Thursday nights in the Muppet League to the shame and embarrassment of the club.
Probably cause we don’t look that good and are being outplayed by mid table teams
Don't look at the results look at how we play.
How many games can you honestly say you've enjoyed watching over the last couple of seasons? Performances not results. A handful maybe?
We'll always get results as the team is full of top players and they'll win us games with individual brilliance but the key to becoming a world beater is attacking/defending as a unit, synergy.
We seem to get lost in games if we play a well drilled team.
I read the criticism of Sancho but I wonder how he would get on in a proper system with a tactic/style/plan that plays on his strengths. It looks at the minute like he gets told to just beat people.
Watch teams like City, Liverpool and Chelsea. Well drilled and every player clearly know what their job is. Burnley, Brighton and Brentford too. All have a recognised game plan that you can see during a match.
We just look clueless unless the other side leave us counter attacking opportunities.
Oles team rebuild has been generally good. The players seem to be happy and want to be here, the majority anyway, but I honestly believe he has taken us as far as his skill set allows.
How many games can you honestly say you've enjoyed watching over the last couple of seasons? Performances not results. A handful maybe?
We'll always get results as the team is full of top players and they'll win us games with individual brilliance but the key to becoming a world beater is attacking/defending as a unit, synergy.
We seem to get lost in games if we play a well drilled team.
I read the criticism of Sancho but I wonder how he would get on in a proper system with a tactic/style/plan that plays on his strengths. It looks at the minute like he gets told to just beat people.
Watch teams like City, Liverpool and Chelsea. Well drilled and every player clearly know what their job is. Burnley, Brighton and Brentford too. All have a recognised game plan that you can see during a match.
We just look clueless unless the other side leave us counter attacking opportunities.
Oles team rebuild has been generally good. The players seem to be happy and want to be here, the majority anyway, but I honestly believe he has taken us as far as his skill set allows.
Knee-jerk reactions? We've been an awfully coached team for a large part of Ole's managerial tenure, Some of the reaction isn't based on Seven games, it's based on a long period of time, many including me have supported the current management way more than it should be, truth is the reason a lot are reacting now, is cause it has become so obvious that we are poorly managed and it's hard to see this current management take us another level.
Absolutely well reasoned sensible post.
I am one of those who have made up their mind that we need to move on from Ole cuz I just see more of what we've seen last 3 yrs.
But you are absolutely right to wait.
I do want to ask you where is the line for you, what are your expectations that need to be met?
Last season wasn’t the only season Ole was our manager
I was firmly Ole in and actually think he would be a good DoF as he knows what we need. However he has everything he wants now so not kicking on is inexcusable. Arsenal used to tank it til Christmas and then once the pressure was off put a great run together post Christmas. Just getting bored of the team dropping points or results when the pressure is on. Up to the manager to create the culture of performance so it’s nothing personal, he just needs to do it now. Also if Ole goes the whole coaching team should go, none of this retaining Carrick no matter what business