What history is there with the Met? Did they fall to arrest and act on it or did the courts not give him a custodial?
The justice system is more than just the police so I’m interested to know where this fell down. Assume you know the details?
Man arrested for murder after running over and killing a guy who was stabbing a woman | Faces no charges
- Thread starter Jippy
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The justice system is more than just the police so I’m interested to know where this fell down. Assume you know the details?
That's interesting, but at least in the US, as I understand it, if you see someone fleeing the scene of violence, you can't shoot them to stop them from fleeing, that's considered excessive, as the immediate danger is over, even if the person in question may be reasonably considered dangerous.
Now the murderer hadn't fled in this case. And even if the victim was unresponsive on the ground she could have been alive. Running her over though, I guess it's better to break her legs than let her be stabbed more in that condition? If you could reasonably hope to avoid hitting her head or torso? That sounds pretty suspect to me.
If this were a gun instead of a car (again I'm thinking in the US), and you unloaded in the direction of the victim and perp and hit both several times, I *imagine* that would be illegal in some degree. Reckless endangerment perhaps.
The guy's solicitor has released a written statement from the driver -
The driver said in the statement: “I was making my way to work and was waiting in traffic on Chippenham Road in West London at approximately 9am. I witnessed a man repeatedly stabbing a defenceless woman on the pavement a short distance in front of my car.
“Members of the public were attempting to intervene. The attacker was wielding a knife and was threatening those brave citizens too.
“My instant thought was to protect the woman who had been stabbed and the public who were also being threatened.”
The driver said he was presented with the “opportunity to intervene” when the vehicles ahead of him moved, allowing him to drive towards the attacker to “get him away from the woman”.
He continued: “I did not intend to harm the attacker, I only intended to protect those being attacked.
“My vehicle struck the attacker, and he was taken under my car causing it to stall, I could not reverse my car to free him.”
“It was never my intention to harm him, I just wanted to stop him from hurting anybody further.
"My only regret is that God did not allow me to be present at the scene sooner so that my intervention may have saved the life of the young woman concerned.”
He said: “I understand that the police are doing their job and that my being arrested is not unusual. However, I do not see why I as the person who tried to assist in the defence of other human beings remain arrested and on bail under suspicion of murder.
“I have asked my solicitor to contact the Metropolitan Police to request that they consider de-arresting me and begin treating me as a witness to a tragic event rather than as a criminal as they currently are.”
The driver said in the statement: “I was making my way to work and was waiting in traffic on Chippenham Road in West London at approximately 9am. I witnessed a man repeatedly stabbing a defenceless woman on the pavement a short distance in front of my car.
“Members of the public were attempting to intervene. The attacker was wielding a knife and was threatening those brave citizens too.
“My instant thought was to protect the woman who had been stabbed and the public who were also being threatened.”
The driver said he was presented with the “opportunity to intervene” when the vehicles ahead of him moved, allowing him to drive towards the attacker to “get him away from the woman”.
He continued: “I did not intend to harm the attacker, I only intended to protect those being attacked.
“My vehicle struck the attacker, and he was taken under my car causing it to stall, I could not reverse my car to free him.”
“It was never my intention to harm him, I just wanted to stop him from hurting anybody further.
"My only regret is that God did not allow me to be present at the scene sooner so that my intervention may have saved the life of the young woman concerned.”
He said: “I understand that the police are doing their job and that my being arrested is not unusual. However, I do not see why I as the person who tried to assist in the defence of other human beings remain arrested and on bail under suspicion of murder.
“I have asked my solicitor to contact the Metropolitan Police to request that they consider de-arresting me and begin treating me as a witness to a tragic event rather than as a criminal as they currently are.”
Unless you're a cop.
I don't even know if it matters in UK law, whether he thought she was dead, or if he thought the attacker would attack others.
If it was me I would hit him if I thought i could do it without running over her head or torso. If he runs over her organs then he may have killed her when she would have lived otherwise.
Is that right? Don't you have to lie about your life being threatened? I hope so.
correct
The CPS make a charging decision here, not the police. They will decide if there’s a realistic prospect of conviction and measure the evidence against the full code test (evidence and public interest).
Murder is an interesting offence as there’s three special defences you can use;
1) Loss of control
2) Diminished responsibility
3) Suicide pact
If you can prove one of the three it will be bumped to voluntary manslaugher and allows such sentencing.
Self defence is a complete defence however not sure it would apply here. Loss of control might be the best bet given the circumstances if it goes that way.
Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Is there no alter ego law in UK self defense law?
i.e. you can act in self defense for another person who is being attacked
TBH Common Law does cover it. It all boils down to if the use of force is considered reasonable and proportionate.
On the face if it this would seem to suggest it would be however it has resulted in the death of another and he’s used a weapon to carry it out. Both would be considered aggravating factors along with pre-meditation.
I’m not saying it’s a total no go, we’d just really need to know all the details.
The use of a car as a weapon is interesting. Is it automatically assumed to be an assault where death is the most likely outcome? I reckon if I drove a car at a pedestrian I would expect to hurt them but badly but not necessarily kill them. At least, death would seem much less likely than if I shot or stabbed them.
This bit doesn't make sense to me and I imagine would look badly on them.
If this was a terrorist incident, and one of the public decided to run over the terrorist, would be be arrested?
I guess it depends on what car you used, the speed you were travelling at and where you hit them?
With self defence I think jury initially look at it subjectively (as in the eyes of the defendant and the circumstances as they believed them to be). Then then look objectively with regards to how someone else might act in similar circumstances.
I imagine so as it’s not the job of the police to attribute guilt.
Investigate and gather evidence.
He'd be applauded as being a hero by the media and general public and from his perspective, he'd have had no idea who this guy was. Could well have been a terrorist and he was helping stop further blood shed from happening. He wouldn't have any idea if this was his 1st victim either. I pity the guy, this will be a mental burden for the rest of his life.
The other guy had a knife, there's no way you're going approach him. What other things do you think he could actually do other than watch her die?
I actuallybhave no idea what I'd do in that situation.
I was thinking that getting to my car and using it to drive into someone seemed like a very far-fetched option to me ('extreme') if I were standing on the sidewalk. But I should have read up more before posting, cause I saw now in @The Corinthian's post that this person was in his car already - and then of course using your car is a very obvious choice.
I virtually always have a backpack on me and I suppose there would be other people with various kinds of bags as well. I was thinking of people throwing those, as together that would have a good impact. Although I suppose it would be useless if I did it on my own (and potentially dangerous to myself, so I'd probably be too scared to do it on my own), and getting that organized quickly with a crowd is pretty impossible as well.
And again, I didn't realize the guy was already in his car when he figured he had to do something. In that case, yes, trying to use the car to do something about the attacker makes a lot of sense.
I’m fairly sure the guy who stabbed one of the Tower Bridge terrorists with a narwhal’s horn (!) wasn’t even arrested. Although that was probably because a police man gave the coup de grace.
Well it would depend on the situation wouldnt it. Look I regret my initial post because I jumped in without actually knowing the details of what had happened. I have already pulled back on this statement in the thread as I read more about how things happened. Can we please let it rest now and not keep jumping up and down on my head?
Does the UK allow the use of deadly force in defense of yourself if the attacker is also using deadly force?
Let me know if you need me to take @arnie_ni out.
Ahh gotcha bud
Does there not need to be pre meditation in Murder? Surely its manslaughter here they should be charging him with?
Thatl be murder. That's premeditation.
I'm working my way through the thread @balaks. I'll let you know if you're off the hook when I'm finished
You're jumping up and down on his head! He's in danger.Thatl be murder. That's premeditation.
I'm working my way through the thread @balaks. I'll let you know if you're off the hook when I'm finished
Yeah, and in defence of another, but it’s not just black and white. There’s a number of things they’d look at to decide if the level of force which resulted in death was reasonable.
But yes.
I'd suggest you let it go. Trust me you don't wanna be called names by SilentWitness for having a laugh.Thatl be murder. That's premeditation.
I'm working my way through the thread @balaks. I'll let you know if you're off the hook when I'm finished
Gotcha. That's good at least (from my perspective).
I would sincerely hope that the prosecution will have a bit of sense and deem the car reasonable force to counter a person repeatedly stabbing a woman in the chest.
I agree looking at it again. It’s just odd he’s said he didn’t intend to cause him any harm?
It's not really odd to me.
The man just killed someone while he attempted to save another person's life. He's having to deal with that. He never woke up that morning expecting to take someone's life, and he very likely didn't want to kill the man, even as he hit him with his car. He just wanted to protect the woman.
I would feel the same way. I would want to stop the attack. If the person died because of it, that would be an unwanted consequence of stopping the attack.
The statement came via his solicitor. Who will have made damn sure it gives the impression his one and only goal in intervening was to stop the assault. By saying he didn’t intend causing harm he’s making it clear he wasn’t seeking vengeance or attempting vigilante justice. Which is the only angle the prosecution could use against him.
I just think it’s a struggle to persuade people you didn’t intend to cause any harm under the circumstances and there was no need to say it as such. Surely reasonable foresight would dictate some harm would be caused by doing what he did?
It's possible in that moment he genuinely just meant to drive 'at him' to force him to back away and maybe run off, and just wasnt a very good driver.
Bizarre to me. This person would be celebrated all over the US media as a hero. Local DA would drop charges if they were even levied.
But he didn't though. You're just mental.
Yeah the idea that there’s an “inappropriate” amount of force to use to try and keep a woman from being stabbed to death has had my mind boggled all day.
With all due respect to the dead piece of shit that stabbed his ex to death in broad daylight in the middle of a street…. Actually… nah. feck that guy
Due process makes sense though in hindsight. Perps family still have to find out what happened etc.
It's possible to remain rational and logical and still despise the guy whose dead for what he was doing. I'm not sure why these internet hard men have to come out and be so worried that being logical might be misinterpreted as in any way sympathetic to the dead guy that they go so vehemently in the opposite direction and just sound deranged. Someone posted earlier that the police should be shaking his hand ffs. As if that's what our legal system is based on.
I’m not talking about the legal due process. I understand that there’s hoops that have to be jumped through. I’m talking about folks analyzing the driver’s actions and questioning if using a car to hit the guy was “too much”.