Declan Rice

[Righteous Steps]

Judging from your posts you'd think football was invented in 2012. Back in the mid 2000s it was strange for Carrick to even be deployed in the role he ended up playing because most teams had the Tchouameni, Rice type that you speak of. Makelele, Mascherano, De Jong, Gilberto Silva were the type of combative and disciplined DMs that played then. Even though Keane wasn't a DM he still fit the mould of the players listed above. Carrick was seen as the complete opposite of that and people questioned if him and Scholes could work initially and it worked a treat.

Even Xabi Alonso, a similar type of player to Carrick was deployed alongside specialist DMs in the Mid-late 2000s with Sissoko or Mascherano but in the pressing era was the deepest midfielder for Madrid and Bayern. Would you take Rice ahead of him also as the deepest midfielder because he'd be more suited to a high press?

I feel you're too hung up on a particular type of football, not every game is a replay of Man City vs Liverpool. Very few games are actually a high press/counter press 90 minute tactical battle. Most teams that Liverpool or City play against wouldn't dare mark them high up the pitch because they'll get cut open as we did for the Keita goal against Liverpool this season. There's probably 10 games or less where teams will push up all the way on Rodri or Fabinho because it will be punished and you'll be opened up. Leeds, Southampton and more recently Everton are the perfect example of this, they get hammered because of this high press. For the most part teams will sit deeper against a better team and make you work to open them up. Carrick is levels above Rice in such situations.

You're also seriously underestimating Carricks ability defensively. He was a master of anticipating attacks and intercepting play, the same things Rice does. You're describing him as if he would be a libility in today's game which is strange as he'd be far more valuable today than he was in the era he played in. He's not too different to Rodri, Brozovic, Jorginho and they've not done too badly.

I also don't see why he would struggle to push up and win the ball higher up the pitch as that is all about coaching, reading the play and timing. Bernardo Silva is a pressing machine and is as lightweight as they come and not particularly quick either. I would understand if he was lazy like Pogba or slow like Matic but that wasn't the case with Carrick.

Good post

 

[Righteous Steps]

Football wasn't invented in 2012, but the approach to a coordinated pressing game became a reality in the EPL with Pochettino and Rodgers taking advantage. And it wasn't strange at all to see Carrick play in a deeper role because the Dutch and other nations had been doing the same decades earlier.

Can you tell me which top team in the current climate is adopting a front front foot approach to playing the game, whilst having a Carrick or Xabi Alonso as the deepest DM? Busquets is the only one I can think of and even then he's probably the greatest DM of his kind to play the game.

Rodri isn’t too far off from Carrick, probably a bit better defensively more robust but a worst passer. To be fair though I feel as good as he is City fans would still rather have the all round athleticism of Fernandinho in his prime as that is one area you can catch Rodri out, in the end I think you’re both right.

 

[Adnan]

Rodri isn’t too far off from Carrick, probably a bit better defensively more robust but a worst passer. To be fair though I feel as good as he is City fans would still rather have the all round athleticism of Fernandinho in his prime as that is one area you can catch Rodri out, in the end I think you’re both right.

I think Fernandinho in his pomp was better, and I like Rodrigo.

 

[NoPace]

I think West Ham can just sell him next year for 100 (2 years left) or with one year left for like 70M so can see why they've priced him out for this summer.

 

[Isotope]

I'd like to see how a midfield 3 of Tchouameni/Rice as the DM with Hannibal and Garner would get on right now.

I'm expecting mediocrity with that line up.

 

[Adnan]

Rodri isn’t too far off from Carrick, probably a bit better defensively more robust but a worst passer. To be fair though I feel as good as he is City fans would still rather have the all round athleticism of Fernandinho in his prime as that is one area you can catch Rodri out, in the end I think you’re both right.

And just to add a few more of my thoughts on the subject

I don't want the likes of Rice or Tchouameni because I think they're gonna help us dictate play from deeper. But rather I'd like to see us sign one of the aforementioned two because it'll allow us to potentially play two creative #8s next to a strong DM who is strong at defending large spaces, which is a reality in the modern game where teams look to impose their game on the opposition via a high defensive line.

So in such a scenario a coach can create conditions in a high line where the fullbacks and the CBs can become active playmakers. So you don't need a deep lying playmaker in the Carrick mould and neither does it make much sense for us to place that sort of responsibility on someone in such a dangerous area of the pitch at a time when opponents are well drilled when it comes to cutting off the space high up the pitch.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Football wasn't invented in 2012, but the approach to a coordinated pressing game became a reality in the EPL with Pochettino and Rodgers taking advantage. And it wasn't strange at all to see Carrick play in a deeper role because the Dutch and other nations had been doing the same decades earlier.

Can you tell me which top team in the current climate is adopting a front front foot approach to playing the game, whilst having a Carrick or Xabi Alonso as the deepest DM? Busquets is the only one I can think of and even then he's probably the greatest DM of his kind to play the game.

That is because players of the Carrick/Xabi Alonsk mould a rarer to find. Most DMs are the aggressive type like Rice whose bigger strength is their robust physical attributes that are refocused by a decent techincal and tactical understanding. Rather than those who rely almost entirely on their wits, technic and tactical ability to survive and thrive in that role.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Bottom line. If you are going to blow 110- 150m on a Rice to play DM. We had better be sure the likes of Mejbri, DVB and Garner are ready to partner him. Plus other youngsters in defence, upfront and out wide are ready to step up. For its doubtful we'd get any one else we really need else where. Plus if the others don't step up, you'd hurt Rice's career for no good reason. On top of not helping United one bit in terms of progress

 

[Adnan]

.

That is because players of the Carrick/Xabi Alonsk mould a rarer to find. Most DMs are the aggressive type like Rice whose bigger strength is their robust physical attributes that are refocused by a decent techincal and tactical understanding. Rather than those who rely almost entirely on their wits, technic and tactical ability to survive and thrive in that role.

They aren't that rare at all, they are just utilised differely in a hybrid #6/#8 role in the game today, next to a defensively strong player, who is also technically good.

Defending in a highline, high up the pitch doesn't require a deep lying playmaker, but a high lying playmaker. And that could be the fullbacks, CBs or any of the midfielders.

 

[andersj]

.

They aren't that rare at all, they are just utilised differely in a hybrid #6/#8 role in the game today, next to a defensively strong player, who is also technically good.

Defending in a highline, high up the pitch doesn't require a deep lying playmaker, but a high lying playmaker. And that could be the fullbacks, CBs or any of the midfielders.

Carrick was an attacking midfielder at a younger age. More of an AM at West Han and certainly more box to box at Spurs. He was a DM at Man Utd because that is what Ferguson wanted him to be. He was a complete midfielder, and would easily adapt to be one of the best midfielders in the PL today. But he would play differently, on that I agree.

 

[Adnan]

Carrick was an attacking midfielder at a younger age. More of an AM at West Han and certainly more box to box at Spurs. He was a DM at Man Utd because that is what Ferguson wanted him to be. He was a complete midfielder, and would easily adapt to be one of the best midfielders in the PL today. But he would play differently, on that I agree.

That's what I'm saying mate, he would have to adapt to the change in the game today and would be utilised in more of a #6/#8 hybrid role which we've seen players like Modric, Kroos etc excel in.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

That is because players of the Carrick/Xabi Alonsk mould a rarer to find. Most DMs are the aggressive type like Rice whose bigger strength is their robust physical attributes that are refocused by a decent techincal and tactical understanding. Rather than those who rely almost entirely on their wits, technic and tactical ability to survive and thrive in that role.

Alonso is 6ft and Carrick 6ft 2in. Both were more than capable of holding their own physically. I think you're thinking of Leon Britton here.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I thought this was an interesting article

https://www.skysports.com/football/...thanks-to-scanning-ball-carrying-and-tackling

The first part talks about 'scanning' which is essentially how often a player is taking stock of their surroundings, or how 'the picture in the head' is formed.

At least from the sample in the article Rice is exceptional when it comes to this attribute. It helps to explains why he rarely loses ball through bad passing or dispossessions and why he makes so many recoveries. I started watching him after reading this article and he never stops looking around him when the play is live. Although, as the article mentions, it can't tell you everything it's something that I'd not noticed prior to reading about it. The consequences of being a good 'scanner' is observed to some degree by many in a secondary sense but it's interesting (to me at least) to see the primary expression of being a top player in this regard.

This is an article from 2019 interiewing Wenger on the subject. It cites Lampard and Gerrard as being elite scanners but unsurpisingly the Xavi was a level above even them.

https://trainingground.guru/articles/arsene-wenger-top-players-have-radars-in-their-heads

It would be interesting to see some data on our midfielders by this metric.

 

[wolvored]

We will chase Rice all summer trying to get the price down and fail, then use the last week of the window scratting for a dm. Or end up paying 100 mill + and still don't get the other players in. Or he will turn us down and go to Chelsea, his ideal choice.
This is what would happen under Woodward. I hope to god that this new board regime has a better plan.

 

[Bebestation]

It's so weird seeing people getting anxiety over Rice's price but don't cry twice about Tchouameni for 80mil prices quoted.

We need to skip these players and go after 30 mil players to make our fan base more happy.

 

[andersj]

It's so weird seeing people getting anxiety over Rice's price but don't cry twice about Tchouameni for 80mil prices quoted.

We need to skip these players and go after 30 mil players to make our fan base more happy.

Is it the same people? For the same amounts?

I recentley saw a report in L’Equipe mentioning €70 mill for Tchouameni (approx £60). That is about half the recent figure mentioned for Rice (£120 mill). And if that is the case, I probably prefer Tchouameni. If the price is £80 mill for either, it would obviously be a different case.

I would feel anxiety paying £100 mill for any of them. But I also think Tchouameni likely will be a lot cheaper. Actually, I think West Ham will make Rice so expensive that no club will get him.

 

[Bebestation]

Is it the same people? For the same amounts?

I recentley saw a report in L’Equipe mentioning €70 mill for Tchouameni (approx £60). That is about half the recent figure mentioned for Rice (£120 mill). And if that is the case, I probably prefer Tchouameni. If the price is £80 mill for either, it would obviously be a different case.

I would feel anxiety paying £100 mill for any of them. But I also think Tchouameni likely will be a lot cheaper. Actually, I think West Ham will make Rice so expensive that no club will get him.

I've seen LEAST of 80 million euros for a start fee of alot of clubs whilst for Chelsea being reported £82million pounds.

It's still a player that's going to stop us buying every gap in the squad that people seem to want finessing.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I thought this was an interesting article

https://www.skysports.com/football/...thanks-to-scanning-ball-carrying-and-tackling

The first part talks about 'scanning' which is essentially how often a player is taking stock of their surroundings, or how 'the picture in the head' is formed.

At least from the sample in the article Rice is exceptional when it comes to this attribute. It helps to explains why he rarely loses ball through bad passing or dispossessions and why he makes so many recoveries. I started watching him after reading this article and he never stops looking around him when the play is live. Although, as the article mentions, it can't tell you everything it's something that I'd not noticed prior to reading about it. The consequences of being a good 'scanner' is observed to some degree by many in a secondary sense but it's interesting (to me at least) to see the primary expression of being a top player in this regard.

This is an article from 2019 interiewing Wenger on the subject. It cites Lampard and Gerrard as being elite scanners but unsurpisingly the Xavi was a level above even them.

https://trainingground.guru/articles/arsene-wenger-top-players-have-radars-in-their-heads

It would be interesting to see some data on our midfielders by this metric.

Yep it's the first sign of a good player.

Go back and watch old matches of Scholes and Lampard. Literally every 5 seconds they are looking left and right over their shoulders.

It was always drilled into me as a youngster this is so important. It's something simple but some don't do it enough, it has to become habit.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Yep it's the first sign of a good player.

Go back and watch old matches of Scholes and Lampard. Literally every 5 seconds they are looking left and right over their shoulders.

It was always drilled into me as a youngster this is so important. It's something simple but some don't do it enough, it has to become habit.

There's clip in the second article of Lampard scanning. It makes you realise just how focused and present in the game the top players are.

 

[Adam-Utd]

There's clip in the second article of Lampard scanning. It makes you realise just how focused and present in the game the top players are.

It just becomes 2nd nature once you realise how important it is.

Ever wonder how Scholes always knew somebody was behind him like he had eyes in the back of his head? it's this reason.

No hesitation, 1 touch pass around the corner.

 

[Bebestation]

There's clip in the second article of Lampard scanning. It makes you realise just how focused and present in the game the top players are.

This is why I want Rice.

He scans the pitch and blocks off the next dangerous attacking area which makes the opposition stop and change their attacking pass - usually to go around Rice by sending it to their wider players. It really slows down their attacks and can make it very basic to deal with.

When Rice scans and constantly repositions- he can really reduce the numbers of attacks or shots on goal through the centre of the pitch.

It feels like a bit of a cheat code of an extra player ghost that suddenly appears in front of the opposition and makes them stop or change their attack.

I don't want him because he is English, I want him because I love his scanning protective and positioning ability. I find it great and he is doing things I don't see much at the age of 23.

 

[caid]

It's so weird seeing people getting anxiety over Rice's price but don't cry twice about Tchouameni for 80mil prices quoted.

We need to skip these players and go after 30 mil players to make our fan base more happy.

I'm less worried about our management spending a huge fee on him than on Rice. It just seems less likely somehow. His transfer thread doesn't seem to be a permanent fixture on the front page either so i just dont see it or comment on him as often. I can get on board with a 60m ish fee for the right dm and theres less of a negotiating gap to Tchouameni so maybe that helps. Monaco are probably going to be more amenable to a transfer than west ham too.

 

[croadyman]

He will be £100m because of how badly we need him and the fact teams know how easy it is to fleece us. I mean we paid £50m for Fred from Shakhtar and £50m for Wan-Bissaka with one professional season, why would West Ham allow Rice him to go for anywhere less than double that? And definitely they will not agree to sell him for less than Maguire went for.

Yeah people know that we are desperate for a DM and a soft touch for paying big

 

[croadyman]

I'd think twice about spunking £100m on a DM even if it was Makelele just entering his pomp. Even if he's about as good as he could be, there's no money left after that to fill the other several holes in the team.

Liverpool got Fabinho for £40m
City got Fernandinho for £35m
Madrid got Casemiro for peanuts
PSG got Verratti for peanuts
Bayern got Kimmich for peanuts

There's just got to be better value somewhere else, and we're not going to compete again until we identify and capitalise on that like Liverpool do now and like we used to. If we carry on getting one stupidly overpriced 'name' player and a bunch of kids every season, we'll just stay on the same fecking hamster wheel we've been on for the last decade.

Yeah this team is full of holes in the starting XI much as we need him

 

[jesperjaap]

Irrelevant.

It doesn’t improve West Ham of course not but as good as Rice is for them no buying club should be looking at shelling out for him at that cost.

It’s a lot more cost effective to invest in scouting infrastructure and find a cheaper alternative that while not PL proven can do the job whilst we improve other areas too.

This 100%

I dont disagree with you, the cost is prohibitive to us with what we need. It is the opposite to West Ham though.

What I disagree with generally in the thread though if we are to just forget fees, is that Rice player wise, experience wise within the league and personality wise, looks like the perfect signing and the "we can get someone jsut as effective in Europe for a 1/3 of the fee" type comments, dont think its that simple both in terms of ability, experience and simply culturally

 

[Banana Republic]

I don’t think Rice will have any desire to come to us, at any price.
He’s happy and loyal at WHU, but his heart is 100% back at Chelsea.
There’s talk of Jorginho returning to Italy and Kante, who turns 31 next week, seems to be suffering from more periods of injury.
Whoever the new Chelsea owners will be, they‘re likely to make at least one marquee signing this summer, just to stamp their intent.

As others have said, we shouldn’t be spending ridiculous amounts of money, overpaying on a single midfield player, who’ll probably be on a contract that means we are stuck with them, if it doesn’t work out.
The money has to be more wisely spent.
We need 2 players in that department, as we don’t have a single one at the moment, other than Matic …and his time is almost up.


.

 

[croadyman]

Great player, but I don't think he's what we need - we need more reliable creativity and playmaking from deep imo. Whilst we also desperately need a DM, for how much he'd cost, I don't think it'd be a smart purchase.

What we need is a Pogba replacement AND Rice. We shouldn't be thinking that it's only one midfield signing required.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

It's so weird seeing people getting anxiety over Rice's price but don't cry twice about Tchouameni for 80mil prices quoted.

We need to skip these players and go after 30 mil players to make our fan base more happy.

I wouldn't take him for 80m neither.


You have to be prime Busquets, Rijkaard or Lothar Mathaus to be worth 80m as a DM. Period.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Alonso is 6ft and Carrick 6ft 2in. Both were more than capable of holding their own physically. I think you're thinking of Leon Britton here.

You are conflating height with robust physical attributes. Carrick never bullied anyone physically nor imposed his physique on anyone. Neither did Xabi Alonso. Neither does Busquets for that matter


Its a joke to bring up Leon Britton

 

[Classical Mechanic]

You are conflating height with robust physical attributes. Carrick never bullied anyone physically nor imposed his physique on anyone. Neither did Xabi Alonso. Neither does Busquets for that matter


Its a joke to bring up Leon Britton

It isn't a joke to bring up Britton. To claim that guys like Carrick, Alonso and Busquets never used their physicality to their advantage is just silly. Football is contact sport and they are not small men. Britton is tiny and literally had to rely on the qualities that you mentioned to succeed. At one point he had the highest pass completion of any player in the top European leagues, it was a talking point at one time because he had a higher pass completion that Xavi.

 

[Maniron]

Rice very rarely gets bullied. Added to his great balance and timing is a 6 ft 1in, 80kg frame

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

It isn't a joke to bring up Britton. To claim that guys like Carrick, Alonso and Busquets never used their physicality to their advantage is just silly. Football is contact sport and they are not small men. Britton is tiny and literally had to rely on the qualities that you mentioned to succeed. At one point he had the highest pass completion of any player in the top European leagues, it was a talking point at one time because he had a higher pass completion that Xavi.

What is silly is rather you insisting with this line of ridiculousness.

First, football "being a contact sport' has absolutely nothing to do with using one's physical attributes to dominate opponents. Case in point Roy Keane and Kante are both much smaller players than Carrick, Busquets and Xabi Alonso. Both are by far there more physically robust players than all three. Using that robustness to bully opponents alongside their tactical and techincal aptitude for the role.
THAT is what I'm alluding too. As stated earlier you are conflating mere height and the sport being one of contact with the topic at hand.

Second, Leon Britton was NEVER an elite class defensive midfielder nor one like a Rice or Tchoumeni on the verge of being bought by the elite clubs to prove their mettle as one. So he doesn't figure in this conversation even if he was doing very impressive things at Swansea in the EPL. That is why I insist its a joke to include him in the topic. Not because I think he was a rubbish player either for I actual quite liked and rated him.

 

[ForeverRed1]

The price precludes us from him, even in the unlikely event we wangle 4th.

He'll be at West ham a long time, I can't see he being sold for less than 60m and no one's paying it.

60 million? Add 30 million to that and the rest.

 

[Xaviboy]

We talk about the attribute of scanning over the shoulder for midfielders, watch old clips of Xavi at Barcelona. Exceptional at it. Knew what he was going to do before ball came to him.

Rice has improved so much over last couple seasons. He does have the ball carrying ability from midfield, only thing for me is he sometimes doesn't play a forward pass enough to break the lines and instead passes it sideways.

Would be an improvement for us either way in midfield but hope we don't spend all summer haggling over a price for him.

 

[Xk byno]

It so funny how people forgot how we spunk 80 mill on harry and 50 mill on bissaka. All because they are English and EPL proven. But unfortunately it went to shit, with these players. So we are knocking on westhams door for rice, a player overpriced for 100 mill.
We forgot that during Ferguson's time we bought unknown gems and made them quality. What happened to that pattern? We should stop this nonsense with these overrated and overpriced players and go for young and hungry players that want to play football, or else we will keep drowning in mediocrity for the foreseen future.

 

[Reapersoul20]

Diabolical today.

Anyone with any common sense would not want us to buy this player at this point.

 

[andersj]

West Ham lost 3-1 to Spurs today.

How was Rice vs Spurs today?

 

[Lash]

Diabolical today.

Anyone with any common sense would not want us to buy this player at this point.

He just looked leggy, which is fair enough.

Thought he showed glimpses of what he's good at, but would be interesting to see if he can adapt to a more packed schedule at a bigger club.

 

[Reapersoul20]

West Ham lost 3-1 to Spurs today.

How was Rice vs Spurs today?

Shit.

 

[Rolaholic]

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Great player but you could literally buy 3 for the quoted fee...

Even half would be a bit much. Still would love him in the team but for 60-70m max