Same was said about Maguire. You are missing the point.
James Ward Prowse | this isn’t a performance thread | signed for WH
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Another English player is always the solution
Some English players can flop and some dont. Just because we flopped with Maguire and Wan Bissaka, doesn’t mean we should never buy one again. Maguire was sort of fine up until this season. Wan Bissaka was never good enough.
If it fits the system and manager, bingo. JWP is exactly what we would need on all levels. Very good allrounder with excellent crossing, freekicks and corners. He wont win us single handedly the league title, but as one of a couple midfield signings, perfect.
These types have a place in every squad, as football is a team game. I feel he could flourish here.
I know he is not that exciting for most, expensive English midfielder, not flamboyant and fancy, boring even. But i think we need to go back to basics and have a fundament for our squad, with some 'honest' quality players, that improve our weaknesses. You also have to add your attacking match winners and excellent technical players, but one doesn't exclude the other, as we have 11 players on the pitch.
If it fits the system and manager, bingo. JWP is exactly what we would need on all levels. Very good allrounder with excellent crossing, freekicks and corners. He wont win us single handedly the league title, but as one of a couple midfield signings, perfect.
These types have a place in every squad, as football is a team game. I feel he could flourish here.
I know he is not that exciting for most, expensive English midfielder, not flamboyant and fancy, boring even. But i think we need to go back to basics and have a fundament for our squad, with some 'honest' quality players, that improve our weaknesses. You also have to add your attacking match winners and excellent technical players, but one doesn't exclude the other, as we have 11 players on the pitch.
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For that fee I would be delighted with his signing.
Garner isn’t one of the best set piece takers on earth. He just isn’t. He’s decent but comparing the two is like an apple vs a jet engine.
Juninho won seven Ligue Un’s in an absolutely dominant side (giving us a great many very tough games in the Champions League during that spell) and was run by Aulas who was notoriously difficult to negotiate with. Juninho was absolutely top drawer and a proven winner.
Even beyond the ludicrous Adam vs Juninho comparison, even Ward-Prowse vs Adam doesn’t hold any water. Adam spent one year in a side that was relegated, vs Ward-Prowse who’s been a good premier league player for a decade.
Agreed, we need the stability of consistent hard workers in the team at this stage. He's a decent player is JWP and he's proven what he'll bring to a team.
People are so obsessed at only signing players that might one day be world class but that's been a disaster for us. Do people never learn.
It'll take a few less glamorous signings for us to build the stability in the squad so that new signings raise our level rather than get dragged down by poor structure.
Guys advocating for this...78% pass completion.
Would not even come close to cutting it here. Imagine having Bruno and him giving it away at that rate. That's not viable. Maybe he could tidy it up and play less risky for us but why gamble on it, buy a top passer to start with.
Would not even come close to cutting it here. Imagine having Bruno and him giving it away at that rate. That's not viable. Maybe he could tidy it up and play less risky for us but why gamble on it, buy a top passer to start with.
Baring in mind garner is just 21 and ward prowse is 27…
Yeah less glamorous names but with a strong work ethic is definitely what's needed at this moment in time
But you said if he’s just as good. He isn’t. There’s about a 0.01% chance of him going on to be.
This isn’t an anti-Garner point, it’s a fact. Ward-Prowse is up there with Beckham and Juninho Pernambucano. For what it’s worth I’ve liked what I’ve seen of Garner and definitely think there’s a role for him (although another year at Forest playing week in week our in the premier league may be a smarter move for him).
I agree with what your saying… I don’t think we should be spending 75 mil though on a player we don’t need when there’s a possibility that we have a similar type of player in our team already. I’m saying 75 mil because that’s what I’ve been seeing the quoted price is at. City are also interested so if it’s a choice then he’ll clearly choose them anyway.
Not to mention his very average defensive stats (in Hassenhuttl’s mental pressing side too where you’d expect pressures and interceptions to be higher) and his very poor dribbling and progression stats on the ball. Saw someone say he’s better than Hargreaves ever was. Wild.
His only standout trait genuinely is his set piece ability, which is absolutely world class. But we need way more in central midfield right now.
We did that with Maguire, AWB in 2019, low-quality ''honest'' players who are overpriced. It didn't turn out very well in the end and those were the reasons said at the time for anyone questioning the signings.
JWP is Southampton's Grealish, he will cost at least 60m and then get exposed at United because there's not really much there beside set-pieces. You say allrounder and the reality is he's average in most of what you really need from a midfielder and isn't really any better than Fred.
Lyon won 7 league titles and reached the CL quarterfinals 3 times while he was there. Are we really comparing Lyon to Southampton?
Bingo. I was clearly talking about the circumstances of the potential transfer. Even the poster who responded knew that.
I wasn't called out. The poster merely asked a question. It's not that serious.
Literally did and you complained it was lazy and daft. Not much to clarify and even the poster who responded understood the comparison.
James Ward Prowse = Thiago Vigilante Bravo. Lets call him Thiago.
He'd be an Arteta like signing except significantly more expensive. Do not want.
We'd probably sign him then take him off set piece duty.
Surprised by these comments.
In my experience, it is sometimes useful to watch a player closer to learn «how» to read his stats purposely. I really like James Ward-Prowse and have for a long time. The reason being the following:
A) Quick feets and works very, very hard. I’ve missed that in our side for years (admittely, Fred has quick feets and work rate).
B) Very solid technically and smart. Makes him press resistant. Barely ever lose the ball in his own half.
C) He is very effective on the ball. Particularly with his passing of the ball. By that I mean that he quickly pass the ball to a better option than himself. It makes him a good player in build-up and in transition from defence to attack. A bit like Scholes of the late 00’ or even Carrick.
This is three qualities worth looking for in a midfielder. It is what Klopp saw in someone like Henderson making him a key player at Liverpool. The set-piece part is just a bonus in my mind. But it is a great bonus!
And if you look at his stats, I do think they prove that he is very good in all these areas.
A) His «tackle + interception» stat is not great. Watching him play I really find that weird. But watching his stat I notice that he makes 11,58 «ball recoveries» per 90 min and is in the 81st percentile in the PL in thag regard.
Fred and McT makes more tackles and interceptions. But neither makes more «ball recoveries» per 90 min with
B) 0,31 miscontrols per 90 min. Putting him in the 97th percentile in the PL. 0,83 for «dispossessed» putting him in the 71st percentile.
Fred and McT «miscontrols» the ball 1,43 and 1,15 times per 90 min. Looks like a small difference, but it is close to four and five times as often. They are dispossessed 1,29 and 1,23 ti
C) His passing numbers are quite low, but remember, passing numbers usually reflect the teams approach. JWP only completes 46,30 passes per 90 min. But that is more than any other player at Soton.
His completion rate is only 77,5 %. But that is above the squad average at Southampton of 75 %. And in JWPs numbers there are also set-pieces. Meaning, he beats the squad average while also being their creative force (xA of 0,18, 89th percentile in tve PL).
How does it show up in his stats that he is a pretty good player during transitions? Well, despite the midfielders not having the ball that much he makes;
- 3,36 switches per 90 min. Putting him in the 92nd percentile. Is switches a good thing? Well, Scholes did tham all the time and so do Liverpool. If you have players with the passing ability of JWP, it is a great tool!
- His progressive passing distance is 273 yards per 90 min. In the 88th percentile. Despite only being in the 66th percentile for passes completed. In other words, each pass moves, on average, 5,93 yards forward.
Fred and McT makes 1,95 and 1,53 switches per game. And JWP, on average, move the ball 20-25 % further forward with each pass than the two.
I’ve compared him to McT and Fred since they are our players. But the one he really remind me of is Henderson. But I like JWP better. Both technically and physically. Henderson might be bigger and stronger, but JWP is quicker with even more intensity. On the ball he just seems more nimble in my opinion. More Scholes. And he is never injured.
Looking at their stats, I really do think, considering the context of the one playing for Southampton and the other player for Klopp, that JWP looks just as good. The one big advantage of Henderson is flair from open play. But I bet you, that is down to Henderson playing for a very, very good team.
JWP is four-five years younger than Henderson. Basically never injured. Considering what Henderson have done for Liverpool for the past five years, I would be really interested in a player that could do something similar for us. That being said, I dont think we can afford to make him a priority, and that really is a shame.
Would not be surprised at all if Liverpool went and got him.
I think he's a good player who could do a job for a better side. It's pointless using passing completion at his current club as a stringent indicator of how that'll turn out at a better side. Check the completions of midfielders who join from weaker clubs to stronger sides, they usually always go up. Even as a general rule it's not something particularly useful in an indicative sense, as without context it's meaningless. He's a good passer and will have no problem fitting into a collective which requires more retention of the ball.
Having said that while a useful player I'm not sure how much he'd cost and if it would be worth it considering your current situation. A decent player but he's not going to move the needle that much.
Having said that while a useful player I'm not sure how much he'd cost and if it would be worth it considering your current situation. A decent player but he's not going to move the needle that much.
Agreed. 2nd best European nation has some supreme talent
He was linked with Liverpool last season, and very much seems in the Klopp mould of player. I think his all-round game has improved over the past 2-3 seasons. He looks like the kind of player who would be a good squad option at a reasonable price. However, the fees being quoted are ludicrous.
The problem is; the days of picking up solid PL players from 'smaller clubs' to supplement your squad are long gone. The money in the PL means that clubs can sell on their own terms and demand ridiculous fees for non-elite players.
The problem is; the days of picking up solid PL players from 'smaller clubs' to supplement your squad are long gone. The money in the PL means that clubs can sell on their own terms and demand ridiculous fees for non-elite players.
Good analysis. I think Hassenhutl is of the German 'vertical' football school which doesn't place a high value on possession retention.
Once we get this done we can bring in Dave Challinor to spice up our throw ins.
Brilliant post. We just have to stop judging players based on nationality, the club and " pure stats with out the context"
I don’t think he’s all that
just a good player who would come at the price of a brilliant player
just a good player who would come at the price of a brilliant player
Thanks! Yeah, I think that is true.
One last thing, I’ve always been a fan of Rice and would love to see him at Man Utd. But I do think JWP is significantly more talented. Quicker (maybe not faster, but quicker!), more «nimble» on the ball and a better passer. In addition, more flair because of set-pieces. I also think, like Rice, he seems like a «good character».
If we could get someone like Bissouma and JWP for the price of Rice, I would really opt for that.
Thanks. Yes, I think we are all suspect to what Khaneman labels system 1-analysis; putting emphasis on what we recognize quickly and skipping thorough analysis.
because we have a finite amount to spend on players and spunking it on garbage like Maguire and AWB et al is not gonna lead to success
Well if in the long run we need to offload the likes of AWB, Maguire, Rashford and McTominay we'll need to keep our home grown quota topped up.
https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/james-ward-prowse-southampton-ralph-hasenhuttl/
This too is worth a read.
“He is one of the best midfield players in the Premier League,” Hasenhüttl said. “He is not only fantastic at free-kicks, but he also displays a massive workload every game. He can run more than any other player. He is robust. He is gifted. He is technical. He is very, very smart.”
This is the type of signing Klopp have made a bunch of since coming to Liverpool. An established PL-player from an average/below average side.
This too is worth a read.
“He is one of the best midfield players in the Premier League,” Hasenhüttl said. “He is not only fantastic at free-kicks, but he also displays a massive workload every game. He can run more than any other player. He is robust. He is gifted. He is technical. He is very, very smart.”
This is the type of signing Klopp have made a bunch of since coming to Liverpool. An established PL-player from an average/below average side.
When played against us he showed exactly what we was missing. Energy and gile whilst technically good. Would be a good signing to play in a two.
Always recommended him to my Arsenal supporting mates. So I can’t turn my nose.
Agree. A lot of talk of us needing a Rodri/Fabinho type of player. While I do think that is true, watching the games against Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool also made it obvious. We miss quick feet, endurance and intensity in those games. We also give away the ball way to easy. JWP is a player that would improve all of that. And he is a very good passer of the ball too.
I also think it is worth remembering, EtH has not utilised a Rodri/Fabinho-type at all. I could easily see ut not spending heavy on one, and instead find a way to make Fred/McTominay/Garner work next to a good player within his system.
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Overpay for one player and we’re saddled with him for years, and forced to milk every drop out of him even if he isn’t any good, like we’re doing with Maguire. It also means we’ll be able to buy less players. I couldn’t care less what the Glazers do with their money but I’m interested in what they do with the club’s.
JWP is pretty good though. He can play every game, he can hit a good pass and it’s probably an additional 10 set piece goals from free kicks and corners every season. He wouldn’t be my first choice but I wouldn’t complain.
I was literally about to post about how he’s a bit like Henderson… top post this!
A. I’ll have to pay more attention because I’ve certainly never thought Ward Prowse was particularly fleet footed under the press (which I’m assuming is what ‘quick feets’ means). Work rate can be bought from plenty of options.
B. Sort of the same point as point A, and merits the same sort of response? Again, I’ve never seen anything from Ward Prowse to suggest he plays well under the press. Better than McTominay, sure. Low barometer, mind.
C. Lots of people are making this “pass the ball to better players point” — we don’t have the ‘better player’ in situ already. The Henderson comparison might be apt because Henderson has players like Trent (who does the heavy creative lifting) and Thiago (who does the insane ball retention). We have maybe the former with Bruno, if he ever hits his level again. We don’t have the Thiago, and that’s the midfielder we need to target first.
His ball recovery stats are inflated because he plays in a mental vertical Hassenhuttl system. Transition central. His tackle and interception stats are poor because he isn’t particularly good at defending, it’s clearly not what he excels at.
Miscontrols is genuinely a stat I have never even heard anybody talk of. His dispossessed stat is nice, but then it’s probably also assisted by the fact he doesn’t dribble or carry the ball at all (21st and 29th percentile for both of those). Easier to keep the ball if you don’t try and move with it!
I’d expect him to make the most passes in his side, and yeah you’re right they would be higher if he was elsewhere. The extremely low passing percentage for a central midfield, even with consideration to the fact he takes set pieces (wouldn’t skewer his stat THAT much) and Hassenhuttl’s aforementioned system.
I’m not sure ‘switches’ are as useful a stat as you’re making out. Liverpool play a very specific way. Will Ten Hag want to play with constant switches of play?
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JWP is a good PL player. At 27 years old though he’s not suddenly going to burst into life and take us up a notch. And more importantly the price he’d cost with 4 years left on his contract just isn’t worth it.
Maybe Liverpool will look at signing at him. And he’d make more sense for Liverpool than us for the reasons mentioned above.
We need a different profile of midfielder as our priority. Once we get that player in, maybe JWP can be an option.
Edson Alvarez.
Really? It is higher than team average! Højbjerg had a completion rate of 78 percent at Southampton. Similar to JWP. At Spurs it is at 89 %.
And Liverpool did quite well prior to Thiago too. I agree we need to add flair, but the flair players really need a type like Henderson/JWP too.
He’s 10 times more useful than McT or Pogba these days
He's a good player. Team foundations are made from players like this lad.
Sign him up!
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