No, telling people theyre transitioning does not increase their vo2max, their standing vertical jump, or bench press unless you've just told us Ronaldo's secret.Yes the knowledge might. Consciously or unconsciously.
Pretty much all research in this area is basically just studying the side effects of testosterone blockers. Why then would you treat it any differently to any other drug study? At least, if you want the results to be in any way meaningful.
1) I have read it.Well you were the one who said the open division ‘solves the participation issue’. Clearly it doesn’t as you haven’t even read the article you said explained it.
Not individually but it could be argued that no option is discrimination free so allowing trans women to compete at the elite level discriminates against far more people than does banning trans women. Least shit option?Why is that an issue? surely non trans athletes are not any more important than trans athletes.
It is. All options are unfair to some people and an open category solves nothing as a) there won't be enough competitors to make a competition and b) I'd guess that most trans women want to be treated as women and not a separate group.Oh man this is a difficult issue to solve
Im in the probably unusual position of having two old friends who have offspring who have transitioned. Both went from male to female, both went through the transition after the age of 18. There are strong emotions in among the parents and kids with respect to bigotry etc. I have not yet broached the subject of sports and transgender people because of fear of wandering into the grey area of perception of opinions. Thats the difficult bit sometimes to me. There are opinions and then there are perceptions of peoples opinion and in difficult issues such as this its so easy for people to get them confused. ( As a complete aside the children involved are happy and active and surrounded by people who accept them without question. I fear for those going through the process who dont have that.)It is. All options are unfair to some people and an open category solves nothing as a) there won't be enough competitors to make a competition and b) I'd guess that most trans women want to be treated as women and not a separate group.
I wonder if over time thats what will happen. Right now we are in that period in history where society is trying to work things out.Would having a third category be too offensive to transgender people? Male, female, and transgender. I think it's important not to exclude, but is the answer to give them their own category they can compete in and then they can win medals and set records.
I'm in a similar position. My nephew transitioned a few years ago at about the same age. I haven't discussed trans in sport with him or his family partly because he is in Northern Ireland so we see him rarely and partly because I'd be very cautious raising the subject for obvious reasons. And he is now a much happier person than pre-transition also largely due to family support.Im in the probably unusual position of having two old friends who have offspring who have transitioned. Both went from male to female, both went through the transition after the age of 18. There are strong emotions in among the parents and kids with respect to bigotry etc. I have not yet broached the subject of sports and transgender people because of fear of wandering into the grey area of perception of opinions. Thats the difficult bit sometimes to me. There are opinions and then there are perceptions of peoples opinion and in difficult issues such as this its so easy for people to get them confused. ( As a complete aside the children involved are happy and active and surrounded by people who accept them without question. I fear for those going through the process who dont have that.)
Same problem. MTF joining male division means they cant win ever. It's not fairI still feel that the solution is the make the divide purely based on biological sex, and then rename the men's division as Open. This way you still have two divisions one where anyone can compete regardless of anything, and a second for purely biological women.
Below the elite level inclusion should be the norm. I think most people agree on that.I think there should be allowances for younger people who are trans to be able to compete in school as the gender they identify with. But when you have transitioned after puberty or after high school, it doesn't make a lot of sense to admit these athletes into elite competitions. For kids, you don't want to prevent them from being who they are, but for adults, you have to err on the side of fairness.
If hormones cannot help transmales athletes to compete with males, then the opposite should be true and in that case it’s unfair on ciswomen.Same problem. MTF joining male division means they cant win ever. It's not fair
In the end professional sports is about winning.
And no natural women would join. Basically it'll be a dead zone
They're not banned from competing, they just cannot compete with women if their sex is male.An open category and non-participitation is the same option. There aren't even close to enough trans people for any sport beyond a pure hobby basis, so any open category or a category for only trans people is just a creation made for people who want to exclude trans women from women's sport but for some reason aren't comfortable with calling it a ban.
Iszac HenigFor instance there was another transgender competing aside from Lia Thomas. I can't even remember the name
When the alternative is dropping them into a division where they have an advantage, I feel it is better, even if their odds of winning are significantly reduced. That way they have the option of competing still, while not gaining an advantage over their division. It isn't the aim to give them a means to win, but not to disadvantage every other athlete in the division. If you give them their own division, it will be a couple of people competing only, and not really an actual competition for most sports.Same problem. MTF joining male division means they cant win ever. It's not fair
In the end professional sports is about winning.
And no natural women would join. Basically it'll be a dead zone
Yes, because he hasn't started on hormones yet. Obviously as soon as he does he won't be allowed anymore. When he does he'll start competing with men given that he's allowed, which is much less controversial for obvious reasons. Trans women would effectively be banned, not trans men.They're not banned from competing, they just cannot compete with women if their sex is male.
For instance there was another transgender competing aside from Lia Thomas. I can't even remember the name but he was a transgender man. He has no problem whatsoever competing with women, and nor the rest of girls competing, as is for his best interest to remain in the women's category.
A third category is just for show because there aren't enough trans people. Lia Thomas would be competing alone, obviously that's not a working solution. A third category and a ban is the same thing.Would having a third category be too offensive to transgender people? Male, female, and transgender. I think it's important not to exclude, but is the answer to give them their own category they can compete in and then they can win medals and set records.
Agreed.A third category is just for show because there aren't enough trans people. Lia Thomas would be competing alone, obviously that's not a working solution. A third category and a ban is the same thing.
I’m not sure an open division or a trans division as others have suggested is the answer either as it means treating trans women differently and one of the main aims behind this should be inclusivity. You’re still not treating them as women, when that’s what they are.Well, I see forcing biological female athletes to compete against MTF athletes as discrimination, so we are at an impasse.
The open division solves the participation issue.
At elite level sport should it be though?one of the main aims behind this should be inclusivity.
I hope you’re right.Below the elite level inclusion should be the norm. I think most people agree on that.
It’s subjective of course, but for me inclusivity means everywhere all the time, if there are exceptions then it’s not inclusive.At elite level sport should it be though?
In every other walk of life of course it should, but shouldn't sporting competiveness be the main aim in this particular aspect?
100% inclusion all the time is discrimination, by that rationale Mike Tyson should be allowed to spar with Gina Carrano in the Octagon. Because, why bother with class? weight?It’s subjective of course, but for me inclusivity means everywhere all the time, if there are exceptions then it’s not inclusive.
It smacks of George Orwell’s “all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.”
Unfortunately that is just how it will have to be and the initial athletes who form part of this third category will be seen as trailblazers but on the downside not have much competition in the initial years. You could argue they don't have much competition in the women's game either as they have biological advantages.An open category and non-participitation is the same option. There aren't even close to enough trans people for any sport beyond a pure hobby basis, so any open category or a category for only trans people is just a creation made for people who want to exclude trans women from women's sport but for some reason aren't comfortable with calling it a ban.
oh, FINA say they are going to solve the issue are they. well that's great to hear! may as well just lock the thread (again)1) I have read it.
2) the article states that FINA is going to use it to solve the issue
3) I believe what they say
I’m sorry you have a problem with that, but you’ll be alright.
the problem with rulings like this, is that it becomes a slippery slope. we've already seen arguments in this thread saying literally any trans woman competing in college where there are scholarship places handed out, is potentially taking away an opportunity for a cis woman, and so shouldn't be allowed. how far does that rationale take you? competing in junior sports is taking away opportunities for cis girls too, etc.Below the elite level inclusion should be the norm. I think most people agree on that.
There’s an easy/practical cut off. In sports at a level where no competitors have mandatory blood/urine testing then trans women shouldn’t be forced to have tests or stopped from competing.the problem with rulings like this, is that it becomes a slippery slope. we've already seen arguments in this thread saying literally any trans woman competing in college where there are scholarship places handed out, is potentially taking away an opportunity for a cis woman, and so shouldn't be allowed. how far does that rationale take you? competing in junior sports is taking away opportunities for cis girls too, etc.
Instead of fixing one we ended up messing 3.Regarding a third division I do think it wouldn't make sense to implement it due to the small numbers. Instead just have the female divison and turn the male division into an open division where male, trans and females can compete if they want.
This is something I've mentioned in here before, and why a science-based approach sport-by-sport is the only real way forwards. In some sports, a bigger frame, broad shoulders etc. will be an advantage regardless of a loss of muscle mass. In others a bigger frame will be dead weight an athlete has to lug around, similar to excess body fat except obviously impossible to get rid of.Second Captains podcast had trans woman and competitive long distance runner/medical physicist, Joanna Harper, on the show. She’s one of the foremost experts on the science behind trans women in competitive sports. Made a point I hadn’t thought of before. Male puberty gives you a bigger frame and stronger muscles. Subsequent transition/T blockers won’t affect the frame but does remove some of the muscular strength. Obviously the bigger frame has an advantage in some sports (e.g. swimming) but the mismatch between frame and muscular strength could also potentially put trans women at a disadvantage. Which is food for thought.
There was an exhibition in 1998 against Karsten Braasch where each sister played a set each against him after they claimed they could beat any male outside the top 200 in the world, he was ranked 203 in the world at the time. He beat them 6-1 (Serena) 6-2 (Venus).Instead of fixing one we ended up messing 3.
It's not funny when a female athlete decided she wants to box against male? Just because she thinks she can. And what about female that honestly just want to compete with man for gender equality. No harm done but the whole sports would be a farce.
Serena and venus might made it in men's tennis to prove a point but we'll have england vs. andorra all over. Andorra might not mind but the whole match would become a joke.
Socially, yes. Biologically, no. For the purpose of sporting integrity, you have to look at the latter.You’re still not treating them as women, when that’s what they are.
Bingo.Regarding a third division I do think it wouldn't make sense to implement it due to the small numbers. Instead just have the female divison and turn the male division into an open division where male, trans and females can compete if they want.
No, the sport wouldn't be a farce if a woman wanted to compete against a man. They wouldn't even qualify at the top level. It's not even a problem that exists within adult sports.Instead of fixing one we ended up messing 3.
It's not funny when a female athlete decided she wants to box against male? Just because she thinks she can. And what about female that honestly just want to compete with man for gender equality. No harm done but the whole sports would be a farce.
Serena and venus might made it in men's tennis to prove a point but we'll have england vs. andorra all over. Andorra might not mind but the whole match would become a joke.
Define open division thenBingo.
No, the sport wouldn't be a farce if a woman wanted to compete against a man. They wouldn't even qualify at the top level. It's not even a problem that exists within adult sports.
No, the Williams sisters got their ass whooped by a male tennis player that wasn't even in the top 200.
Battle of the Sexes: When the World No. 203 swept the Williams sisters
Swedish football ladies beaten by teen boys
Re: bolded, Nobody here thinks this is funny. Comments like this really piss me off. This is a serious subject and you've made it abundantly clear you don't know what you're talking about and have given this very little serious thought before posting.
Well, I see forcing biological female athletes to compete against MTF athletes as discrimination, so we are at an impasse.
That's not what discrimination means.Is it not discrimination against cis women who may lose out to a transgender athlete that is at an advance from being the opposite sex before transition?
It’s not an unjust treatment of a group of people? Because I would say it is.That's not what discrimination means.
Open: Any athlete may opt to compete in the open divisionDefine open division then
