You're probably right.
But that does open a can of worms for "female" athletes who don't know that they have male characteristics.
This is rare but much less rare for female athletes compared to the female population at large (for obvious reasons)
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But that does open a can of worms for "female" athletes who don't know that they have male characteristics.
This is rare but much less rare for female athletes compared to the female population at large (for obvious reasons)
It wouldn’t surprise me to see wrestling formally do this. It is already de facto operating like this anyway.
No it doesn't. They're still congenital females.
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Then call for a ban, that's all I'm saying. Don't hide behind new categories, making it seem like (royal) you want to create an environment where they can compete. Trans women will be banned from professional sport.
Why is it such an outrageous position when Para sports show that separate categories can work and be successful?
How is asking transwoman to compete in the open division more of a 'ban' than asking congenital females to compete against transwoman?
Is it a ban if a 39y old can't compete in the masters division?
Who would Lia Thomas compete against?
It's estimated there is a circa 1 million trans population in the US alone: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227946/ That's a far bigger pool of potential competitors than in some of the more niche Para categories.
I'd say that US college scholarship is elite sport given how few scholarships there are for most sports.
I'd suspect that treating trans as a disability is very insulting.
That's everyone who doesn't identify with the gender they were assigned as at birth. Trans men, trans women, non-binary, gender non-conforming etc. The population of MtF trans people who have transitioned medically is much, much smaller.
And I'm not aware of a single Paralympian who is a professional athlete. Some have a few sponsorships, most of them train on their own dime in their free time and compete in a heavily subsidized event once every four years.
Except that's an inference you have decided to make and not what I said.
Because it’s much easier to say they’ll have nobody to compete against and cry foul than it is to put in the work to expand participation and grow a sport organically.
That’s not what they said, though.
You seems to not understand the crux of the matter.
It's not about who can participate. It's who can participate and still make it a fair sport.
Lumping anyone on one division would create imbalance, I'm sure you can agree on this.
Qualifying you say? How and where do we draw the line? You have a problem with lines being drawn between natural man / natural women and you want another set of lines to be drawn to decide who can participate and that line must not be male / female?
Sure, let us know what you had in mind.
Agreed. Easy to just cry foul but the boxing example is one where it would be ridiculous to allow that to happen and there is so many sports out there where the physical contact element is dangerous. Does it need to get to the point where someone is seriously hurt before common sense is applied?
In every sport there has been a time where there is no professionals, it grows from amateur status and then becomes a viable sport. Yes it is sad that some are effectively losing out on a career and medals right here right now but they are doing the same to CIS females by taking their respective spots. Just need to suck it up for the good of trans sport in the long run.
Agreed. I’ve argued the same point from a wrestling context… it could be dangerous.
Yep. I look at girl’s scholastic wrestling across the US and how far it’s come in the last 10 years… or even just in my state. We went from less than 100 girls competing in the state to almost 300 now. Now, girl’s / women’s wrestling is the fastest growing sport in the US… it just took being willing to put the work in.
The same can happen with trans athletes and a push towards a fully populated open division. Even if it means 2 divisions right now (one female, one open) until trans athlete numbers are high enough for there to be 3 divisions… that’s exactly what girls in my state had to do. There was no sanctioned girls division until literally this past spring. Any girl I’ve ever coached up to this season has had to compete in basically a single “open” division against the guys, until it came time for state, where the coaches association has had a non-state league recognized tournament for the girls. Now they have their tournament and their own division… because they grew their numbers and grew the sport.
An open division would be a division open to anyone whether Male, Female or trans, non-binary etc. Every athlete would understand that it is an open division and that a person of any gender can participate. There can be multiple ways to do it: 1) Open division and female sex division 2) Male sex division, Female sex division and open division. etc. Its quite clear that while the majority of mtf athletes do not go on to win championships and break records, nearly all greatly outperform their historical performances in the male division i.e. jumps of going from 500th to top ten for example. In reverse, you do not see ftm athletes outperform their historical performances. Therefore as it makes sense to have female only divisions in every sport due to advantages that a man would have in a female division i.e. they would greatly outperform their historical performances in the male divisions, it makes sense to keep the female division a female sex division, especially after all the work done over the last couple decades to get female divisions to stand on their own. Now this does not mean that you just go oh well trans athletes tough luck you can't compete anymore. If you have an open division that all genders can compete in then it does give them a space to compete in whilst also potentially solving the issue of there not being enough trans athletes to make a full fledged division. Also most likely we would see female sex athletes trying their hands in open divisions as well as there are countless female athletes in multiple sports who have expressed wanting to compete against men for example. A question would remain around whether you should roll the men's division into the open division or keep them separate but this would provide a solution for having a division that trans-athletes (both mtf and ftm) could compete in alongside willing female sex athletes with or without male sex athletes.
Exactly.
I understand how open division works. It's pretty simple in theory.
But as in my original post it would "mess up" the game as in the man's division is already very highly competitive even a full grown natural man strive for every small advantages. Anything other than Natural male would stand no chance to compete. Hence the whole thing would become farcical. Accommodating, but it won't be the sports we knew now.
Take for example Athletics.
1. Everyone male/female/MTF/FTM can join
2. How do we decide who goes to Olympic? This will surely goes to Natural Man, what does the other gender have left to compete?
3. How do we decide the qualification? The bar must be set low enough to accommodate natural women.
Again I understand what open division means, i just don't see how it can work realistically.
And I say this because I see that's it is also not fair to let MTF compete in men's division, just like it's not fair to let MTF compete in female division.
MFT in male division : MTF can never win, all things assumed equal
MTF in female divison : Natural Women can never win, all things assumed equal
*When I say all things assumed equal is that they're both professional athlete at their respective sports. Off course A natural Men's amateur Tennis would still lose to Serena Williams.
Hence I think this is not "THE Solution" it's just passing the buck to the MTF, giving them hollow participation without any chance of ever winning
As to 3 division (Female / Male / Open) then we're back to square one. Basically that means MTF would eventually have to start from scratch. A viable solution given time, but I don't think that's viable because who would sponsor a match with only 1 Lia Thomas. And even if in the future there would be more MTF swimming athletes, the numbers would be so small at start that no event could be held.
And I get your points, this is where a decision on what an open division would entail. If its restricted to female sex, mtf, ftm only then it removes the obstacle of men entering the division and destroying everyone whilst also giving those women who want to try their hand in the open division the option to do so.
However the reality is whatever choice is made there is going to be someone getting short changed. At least with the open division whether with men or without it keeps the competitive aspect of the male and female divisions intact, whilst creating an open space for trans athletes and potentially providing an answer to the problem of there not being enough trans athletes by allowing women to enter if they choose to do so.
As I was saying above… you can start with 2 until numbers are high enough to break off and create an independent 3rd division.
Please. Disagreeing isnt the same as not understanding.
Yes, the open division as I described it would just reclassify the mens division. So congenital females can compete fairly against other congenital females and transwomen dont feel offended.
It sounds to me like for you it's about transwomen having opportunities to win medals? They can compete in the open division but this isnt good enough for you.
not everyone can be a winner or top athlete. I cant play for Manchester United because of shitty genetics and bad life choices. Its the same dynamic for a congenital male taking or having taken hormone blockers. We shouldnt destroy sports for congenital females just because some people refuse to believe the science that says congenital males have advantages over congenital females.
i have no clue what you're on about re the qualifying. Youve misunderstood what I meant by qualifying
You implied mens sports would become a farce if women could compete and I pointed out women would not hit the times require/finish in the predetermined spots in qualifier events (like those that exist for national/european/world championships swimming or track).
You dont just sign up for the olympics by writing your name on a list.
It's a non issue you've made up.
That's great marketing talk, but if the Williams sisters got their asses whooped by the 203rd highest rated men's tennis player, then it's a fantasy.
The best female athletes are not going to compete at average men's amateur levels. There's no money in it and no one would care.
Women sport is slightly different, they have the numbers to start with. Half the population is Female, and most of the sports have already incorporated female division from years ago. It's just a matter of promotion.
Most MTF athletes are too wide spread to provide the numbers for a proper competition. You can't host a swimming competitive matches with only 2-3 MTF (for a start) with different background and different abilities, and without competition there would be no new blood, no new blood = no competition. It's a cycle of evil.
I personally thinks the solution is
1. Handicap for time based / non team / non versus sport. Very doable with arbitrage calculations
2. MTF can join the male division to train / compete and in essence borrowing the sporting structure while having their own separate valuation that would be judge separately.
(E.g. Lia can swim with the male, but her winning / losing would be set based on MTF standard instead of Men's)
3. MTF can join the female division, but again on separate valuation. If they win they'd be given separate medal (at least for now) so it doesn't disrupt the natural women's natural progression.
(E.g. Lia Thomas Would win the current swimming MTF category by virtue of no one else competing, but in time there would be competition)
4. A par +1 or +2 down / up division. Say if a 500th ranked MTF transitioning to women, they would be pitted with 200th ranked to even up the competition. Or a better example would be a welter Boxer transitioning would be put to fight in Heavyweight Female division if it's applicable. Not every sport can do this though.
Off course sports differs from one to another, and each governing bodies can decide which method works best. Chess would use different method, while Boxing or any other contact sport would employ different method. And it could be a mix method by applying several "balancing" for the time being.
No but it is likely how it will be perceived.
Because if you want to give sports to Trans, you have to give them the full package. Giving them the chance to join without the chance to win is basically a discrimination. My problem is not with limiting trans, it's finding the best solution for everyone involved. Just because we have not arrived there doesn't mean the current system is correct. Calling this current solution of letting MTF competes with Natural Women wrong doesn't mean that's the be all and all for MTF athletes, we're still working on solutions.
So stop assuming I don't want trans to have their sport or how it's not good enough for me, or any other baseless accusations..
The other way around, I want a better solution to what we're having now.
And yes, Mens sport would either become a farce if everyone can sign up, or be discriminative. It'll be a dead zone for natural women / MTF as they can't realistically better than the natural men. So this open division is not workable.
If women would never hit the time required, why bother opening it to everyone? Token gesture? Yeah, you can join the open division, but you gotta qualify against natural men.
Where does all this leave Semanya? She was born female and never took to change her sex. So why can't she compete as a woman though she has higher testosterones than usual women?
All that is solved by exactly what I said. You use 2 divisions (women’s and open) until numbers are there for a 3rd division.
There’s numerous sports that you cannot handicap. And even if you can in some, again, you’re talking spots from biological female athletes, which means you’ve still got the same issue you began with.
you can all think asking trans women to compete with men is a great solution all you want. it isn't. it's a complete non-starter. ignoring the fact that trans women are women, and therefore putting them in with men is just massively problematic for reasons beyond just gender dysphoria, it also is incredibly unfair - far more unfair than the current supposed unfairness on a small number of cis women. trans women are on hormones that literally make it impossible to compete effectively against cis men.
people keep saying 'this is the least shit way'. is it though?
option 1: a tiny number of trans women compete in sports against cis women, and more or less compete on a par with them. sometimes they win, most times they lose.
option 2: a tiny number of trans women compete in sports against cis men, and comfortably lose every single time. can you imagine how it would look even just as a spectacle for this to happen, seeing a trans women come significantly last in every major event they compete in?
everyone here advocating for 'fairness' only applies this rationale to cis women - cis women who continue to beat trans women more times than not, despite all their supposed physical advantages. if it's fairness of trans people that is mentioned, then suddenly it doesn't matter. some would argue that is problematic.
people keep saying 'this is the least shit way'. is it though?
option 1: a tiny number of trans women compete in sports against cis women, and more or less compete on a par with them. sometimes they win, most times they lose.
option 2: a tiny number of trans women compete in sports against cis men, and comfortably lose every single time. can you imagine how it would look even just as a spectacle for this to happen, seeing a trans women come significantly last in every major event they compete in?
everyone here advocating for 'fairness' only applies this rationale to cis women - cis women who continue to beat trans women more times than not, despite all their supposed physical advantages. if it's fairness of trans people that is mentioned, then suddenly it doesn't matter. some would argue that is problematic.
The bolded is important and underlines what I already thought. You want transwomen to have a shot at silverware and instead of welding the medals yourself you want them to beat congenital females first to validate their achievement, even when it has been pointed out transwomen (ie congenital men) have an innate advantage that makes these two groups competing with each other unsafe and unfair.
No mate, it's not discrimination if a guy with a 25 inch vertical isn't good enough to play in the NFL. It's not discrimnation if a congenital male chooses to take hormone blockers and therefore isn't good enough to compete with other congenital males.
A lot of people waive their chance at possibly competing at the highest when they make certain life choices. The fact that transitioning is important to them should not force us to pretend they do not have an advantage competing over congenital females, which is what these suits on committees are effectively doing by allowing transwoman to compete with and against congenital women. This is the actual issue at hand.
I'm criticizing their decisions because it's ignorant of the science, presumably because of public pressure, or because they're plain stupid. Either way, since you're so insistent on using this term, the real "farce" is transwomen competing against women and pretending they're physically one and the same.
In the absence of a transwoman's division, I don't see the point in fecking up sports for all congenital women to appease a group of people that want transwomen to be able to transition and win medals. How about they give up their chance at winning a medal instead of all other women giving up theirs and in many cases making it unsafe to compete at all.
Transwomen are perfectly capable of living fulfulling lives without medals, like 98% of this forum.
The women in red isn't some random small girl but an actual athlete at the asian handball championships. Would you want the women in your life competing against a transwoman in a physical contact sport?
Saying that the williams sisters got wrecked and that the best female athletes are not going to compete in mens tournaments has nothing to do with what I wrote.
If there is an open division a women can choose, if they want, to compete in that division. A lot will choose not to, but there would most likely be some women who are happy to compete in it. In the majority of sports athletes compete in different divisions based on style e.g. swimming frontstroke, breast etc as well as weight divisions or in tennis competing in singles and doubles, mixed etc. So it would be another division that a female sex athlete could choose to compete in which has the added benefit of increasing the numbers of the open division if for example male sex athletes are excluded based on not wanting to seem to be pushing trans athletes into mens divisions. Regarding the point about what is the point for the trans athlete to compete if they cannot win a medal...well you are describing the majority of athletes in the world who know they have no chance of winning a medal, yet they compete because its what they love. An open div to me with or without male sex athletes comes the closest to resolving most of the issues.
option 3: Trans women compete against cis women at every level of sport except for the very tiny % of women who compete at the very highest level. At that level each individual sporting organisation has to decide how to level the playing field. Which is what FINA have done here. A decision that is completely irrelevant for the vast vast majority of women, cis and trans.
Trying to drag decisions like this into the overall culture war around trans rights helps absolutely nobody.
Do you have data on this? A source?
By his own admission, the poster I was responding to cared about the medals. Don't take my post out of context.
And with regards to the Williams sisters, yes it's relevant. It proves the point that it's just talk and no woman would do it for the competition, but rather as a pr stunt.
You act like this is a given, but this is bullocks and you have zero evidence to back this up. I'd put my money on a good amateur player any of the day week. The Williams sisters lost to someone that would smoke during changeovers according to his wikipedia page.
"Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centred around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple bottles of ice cold lager"
And there's been other such male vs female contests:
https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2017/06/27/595296da468aeb99218b464c.html
u15 footy teams have beaten women's teams at the highest level on more than one occasion:
What happened to girl power? Australia's national women's soccer team the Matildas lose 7-0 to an under FIFTEENS boys' side
" Australia's national women's soccer team have suffered a devastating defeat in the lead up to the Rio Olympics - going down 7-0 to the Newcastle Jets under-15 boys side. "
Swedish football ladies beaten by teen boys
" Sweden's women's national football team suffered a crushing defeat during a friendly in Stockholm on Tuesday, with the country's top female players finding themselves shutout by an undermanned local boys team."
Anecdotally, one of the best Dutch female powerlifters I know benches 170kgs and juices (she's a former bodybuilder). There's multiple amateur men in her gym that are clean and bench that amount and the men's national record is easily over 300kgs. In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't an amateur at every powerlifting gym capable of it. Strength and power production have a carry over in practically every sport. Women competing against men is a fantasy and I'm amazed we're discussing something so trivial on page 35.
Go make a thread on it and see how many people agree that a good amateur tennis player can beat Serena or Venus on their prime.
And just because it happens doesn't mean it's a fact and would always happens.
I could list professional team obliterating amateur (Andora vs. England, Macedonia, Australia vs. Vanuatu) or Judith Polgar a female playing chess against 20 opponent that's not even amateur while blindfolded.
FACTHS is a funny thing my friend.
Not commenting on the post at all, but this is funny.
How do I respond to someone that cites an instance of Judith Polgar giving a blindfold simul to 20 people "that's not even amateur" in an effort to downplay the differences in athletic performances between men and women?
Checkmate.
I am commenting on this though...
I know for a fact US women's Olympic team gold medalists would lose to good high school boys in the same weight class.
I've actually watched a Pan-Am Games bronze medalist get beat bad by one of our guys.
Just saying that there are always exceptions to the rules.
You get some good amateurs, but statistic wise professional athlete performs better than amateurs.
A MTF might still get beaten by a very good world class female athletes (as the olympics suggest) but the advantages they have over similar classed natural female is not up for debate.