Archie Battersbee: RIP

[Mr Pigeon]

Isn't that everything goes now? Nobody wants to take responsibility.

I do get it, I could never pull the plug on my own child, but medical expertise should prevail over the crackpots they have allowed to advise and influence them. It probably should not have been allowed to get this far in the court system.

Reading about some of the things going on around the hospital these last couple of days and I'm appalled. Grief is a hell of a thing but when the mum is always on TV saying that the hospital staff are uncaring and want to execute her son I just start thinking "man, feck you". Then there's the protesters she's rallied outside the hospital, the alleged arguments with hospital staff etc. These people have enough problems trying to keep the kid from falling apart and then she's running around giving them shit all of the time?

Free NHS care as well, mind. Yet she's got a GoFundMe that says it's all for medical costs...

Like I said, grief can make you do fecked up things. A lot of folk have been there, but it is for a microsecond because standing in front of you is an overtired doctor who hasn't done anything wrong. They're just delivering the inevitable message. A few months ago everyone was banging pots for our NHS and now there's swathes of people being led on by conspiracies and think it's okay to take out their anger on them like they're human shaped punching bags. Presumably because those NHS staff just have to stand there and take it. It's bullying, tbh.

Poor kid. Rest in peace. Feck everyone else though.

 

[Frosty]

Archie Battersbee: Family loses appeal to Supreme Court

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-62389726

The Supreme Court said it was "not persuaded that there is an arguable case that the Court of Appeal has so erred and accordingly refuses permission to appeal to this Court".

It also said the Court of Appeal "made the correct decision".

The ruling said it was "not clear that Archie has any more extensive rights in international law" nor was the decision to end treatment a "breach of international law".

"The panel reaches this conclusion with a heavy heart," the ruling said.

Ms Dance, said: "We are extremely disappointed by the Supreme Court's decision and the intervention by the government.

"No authorities, other than the UN CRPD have shown any compassion or understanding to us as a family. The government intervention at the last moment feels like a betrayal.

"We will fight until the end."

According to the family's legal team, the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Steve Barclay, had intervened and government lawyers told the court any UN measures were "not binding".

The Supreme Court said it had considered submissions from the health secretary in reaching its decision.

 

[Pexbo]

My heart breaks for them but their son has gone. It’s inhumane to prolong their suffering whether they realise it or not, that’s why we as a society put our trust in medical science.

Right now we have the remains of a young life being kept fresh by machines, while other lives that could still be saved are being starved of resources.

RIP Archie.

 

[Frosty]

Application may be made to the European Court of Human Rights tomorrow morning. Care is likely to end tomorrow.

More concerningly:

"The Christian Legal Centre, which has been supporting the legal action by Archie Battersbee's parents, has called for changes to the law following Archie's case.

Andrea Williams, chief executive of the Christian Legal Centre, said: "What Archie's case has shown is that systematic reform is needed to protect the vulnerable and their families in end-of-life matters.

"Legislation must be passed reforming the system. Archie's case stands in the gap. The precedent his case sets can go an incredibly long way to fixing a system which has no room for error.""

These 'support' groups deliberately take advantage of familial grief to push their own agenda. This influence really needs challenging.

 

[Stactix]

Lost all support for the mother, complete fecking nutcase.

Be very interested in what an investigation into her brings. Nothing good I imagine.

 

[Penna]

It's a sad case all round, but the medics haven't done anything wrong and shouldn't be berated. Life is being prolonged with no hope of recovery, as will no doubt be shown when the ventilation is withdrawn. If the child by some miracle can breathe on his own without ventilation, then obviously the whole situation would be reviewed again and he'd receive different treatment.

However, if there is catastrophic damage to the brain stem, that's normally the end of any possibility of independent respiration. End of life decisions have to be made all the time, such as when CPR is discontinued on people who've suffered a cardiac arrest. You can fill the lungs with air indefinitely using machines, but when the person is comatose, that's not really living.

I know the mum is grieving and desperate, but this was a tragic accident as a result of a kid trying out a daft thing, as kids will often do. In this case it's had terrible consequences. The healthcare staff would do everything in their power to save this boy's life if it were possible.

 

[Heardy]

Lost all support for the mother, complete fecking nutcase.

Be very interested in what an investigation into her brings. Nothing good I imagine.

Bit harsh to judge a mother in that situation. She clearly can’t be objective in her thinking as she’s fighting for her Kids life.

From the outside looking in, people can acknowledge that all hope looks lost and an “end of life” call needs to be made, but if she thinks there’s a 0.00001% chance of recovery she’ll fight for it. Hard to berate her for it.

 

[Phil Jones Face]

I read a thread on another forum and it looks like the poor boy came from a highly dysfunctional family and without going into too much detail, there are a lot of questions about the mothers parenting ability.

Just as an example, the lad had a tiktok account called "painhub" and screengrabs before it was deleted show he would post depression related content. Hard to tell whether it was all meme-y but he certainly didn't seem of a sound mind and was unhappy. I suspect there is a lot of guilt on the mothers part which is why she's so vociferous and claiming it was a tiktok challenge gone wrong. For her to accuse the hospital of "executing" her son is despicable though.

 

[hobbers]

I read a thread on another forum and it looks like the poor boy came from a highly dysfunctional family and without going into too much detail, there are a lot of questions about the mothers parenting ability.

Just as an example, the lad had a tiktok account called "painhub" and screengrabs before it was deleted show he would post depression related content. Hard to tell whether it was all meme-y but he certainly didn't seem of a sound mind and was unhappy. I suspect there is a lot of guilt on the mothers part which is why she's so vociferous and claiming it was a tiktok challenge gone wrong. For her to accuse the hospital of "executing" her son is despicable though.

Hopefully she turns some of that guilt and energy once this is over to campaigning against letting kids on social media, rather than trying to draw up hospital staff on murder chargers. Because that should be the real message from this tragedy.

 

[Stactix]

Bit harsh to judge a mother in that situation. She clearly can’t be objective in her thinking as she’s fighting for her Kids life.

From the outside looking in, people can acknowledge that all hope looks lost and an “end of life” call needs to be made, but if she thinks there’s a 0.00001% chance of recovery she’ll fight for it. Hard to berate her for it.

Maybe a little harsh but on one hand shes riling up her facebook knights telling them one thing that he hopefully will recover and then telling the judge etc that she just wants a natural death. All while promoting go fund mes etc.
Going after the staff that work tirelessly to do their best eliminates all sympathy on my part, her actions could lead to hospital staff being attacked.

 

[P-Ro]

I know the mum is grieving and desperate, but this was a tragic accident as a result of a kid trying out a daft thing, as kids will often do.

From the little I've read it looks more like a suicide attempt.

 

[calodo2003]

Smacks a bit of the Terri Schiavo case in the US.

 

[paulscholes18]

I feel really sorry for Archie, to me he has been in a state worse then death for nearly 4 months now, hopefully the court of Human Rights will side with the NHS and then Archie can be set free. Or is there something else the mum can do to stop him from being taken off life support?

How come the doctor doesn’t get the final say? Is it because he’s under 18 or do they always need a loved ones permission to end life Support regardless of age. If it’s the former then maybe the law needs to be looking into, as this is so wrong.

 

[Anustart89]

FAO medical people of the UK, is there a legal difference between “brain stem death” that is mentioned in the articles in this thread, and death? Because by the Swedish legal definition he would, if he was found to be “brain stem dead” he would be pronounced dead, in which case they would’ve been ventilating a deceased person since April. Does the legal definition differ so that it is not the case here?

 

[Frosty]

I feel really sorry for Archie, to me he has been in a state worse then death for nearly 4 months now, hopefully the court of Human Rights will side with the NHS and then Archie can be set free. Or is there something else the mum can do to stop him from being taken off life support?

How come the doctor doesn’t get the final say? Is it because he’s under 18 or do they always need a loved ones permission to end life Support regardless of age. If it’s the former then maybe the law needs to be looking into, as this is so wrong.

With an incapable adult patient, no-one can consent to treatment on their behalf.

With an incapable child patient, the parent can consent to treatment.

In both cases, the decision rests with the doctor as to the treatment options to be offered.

In English law treatment (including withdrawal of treatment) has to be in the 'best interests' of the patient. Here, the parents are challenging that medical judgment that the withdrawal of treatment is in the best interests of Archie. Legally doctors do not need the family's permission to act, but they inevitably try and get the family's agreement in these sorts of situations to help with the grieving process and not to make the issue confrontational.

FAO medical people of the UK, is there a legal difference between “brain stem death” that is mentioned in the articles in this thread, and death? Because by the Swedish legal definition he would, if he was found to be “brain stem dead” he would be pronounced dead, in which case they would’ve been ventilating a deceased person since April. Does the legal definition differ so that it is not the case here?

Those are medical, not legal, distinctions, in England. Death would be when someone stops living. Brain stem death where the patient is breathing (even assisted breathing) is not a legal term. Archie is legally alive and if a non-medical professional killed him, it would still be murder.

 

[Anustart89]

Those are medical, not legal, distinctions, in England. Death would be when someone stops living. Brain stem death where the patient is breathing (even assisted breathing) is not a legal term. Archie is legally alive and if a non-medical professional killed him, it would still be murder.

I see.

Like I said, in Sweden, once someone’s been proven to have lost all brain stem function with two separate exams at least two hours apart, they are legally dead whilst still being kept on a ventilator for donation purposes.

I’ve never considered what would happen if someone stabbed such a person in the heat resulting in an instant loss of circulation though.

 

[TheReligion]

I hope someone sees sense and lets the little lad go.

His mum will regret this further down the line

 

[BeltUp]

It's so sad but I completely underrated why his parents are clinging on. Denial is part of the grief process and letting go is so bloody difficult.

 

[paulscholes18]

I hope someone sees sense and lets the little lad go.

His mum will regret this further down the line

The end is close, thankfully the ECHR have said they are not getting involved.

 

[iammemphis]

I hope someone sees sense and lets the little lad go.

His mum will regret this further down the line

Maybe she will, Maybe she won't. Can't say if i found myself in her position that i would handle it any better or differently. I don't blame her for doing everything within her power but its obvious, to all the proffesionals at least, that she's only stalling the inevitable. She's just been praying for a miracle this whole time and it doesn't look like it's going to come. Heart breaking.

 

[Frosty]

Archie Battersbee: Legal battle at the end, says mum

From the BBC:

The mother of 12-year-old Archie Battersbee has said the legal battle to postpone the withdrawal of her son's life support was at "the end".

On Wednesday, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) refused an application from the boy's parents to delay any changes to his treatment.

Life-sustaining treatment for Archie has been in place since April and was due to be withdrawn earlier.

The ECHR said it "would not interfere" with the UK courts' rulings.

The family had applied to the the ECHR after an appeal against the decision to end treatment was refused by the Supreme Court on Tuesday.

Archie's mother, Hollie Dance, said the court's decision to refuse their application was "another heart-breaking development".

The family have now said they want to file an application to the High Court to transfer Archie to a hospice.

 

[Eyepopper]

I hope someone sees sense and lets the little lad go.

His mum will regret this further down the line

Dunno mate, I have a brother who totally disowned his entire family over end of life issues and care for our dad.

He argued the toss with all of us & the medical evidence, accusing us of all sorts, over treatment for our 82 year old dad, who'd spent 6 months in a coma after a stroke (following treatment for cancer).

When our dad finally died my brother doubled down, his first question was what was the official recorded cause of death!?!

He hasn't spoken to any of us since (almost 4 years now).

 

[McGrathsipan]

Dunno mate, I have a brother who totally disowned his entire family over end of life issues and care for our dad.

He argued the toss with all of us & the medical evidence, accusing us of all sorts, over treatment for our 82 year old dad, who'd spent 6 months in a coma after a stroke (following treatment for cancer).

When our dad finally died my brother doubled down, his first question was what was the official recorded cause of death!?!

He hasn't spoken to any of us since (almost 4 years now).

That's very sad. A death is hard enough.

Can't begin to thunk what Archies parents are going through . It's so so sad. Heart breaking

 

[Frosty]

The family of Archie Battersbee were "devastated" that all legal routes have been exhausted, campaign group Christian Concern has said.

The 12-year-old must spend his final days in hospital after the High Court ruled he could not move to a hospice.

The family requested the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) intervene, but was told it "fell outside" its scope.

Archie has not regained consciousness since an accident at home in Southend, Essex, on 7 April.

The family's long legal battle to continue his life-sustaining treatment ended when the ECHR said it "would not interfere" with the UK courts' rulings, paving the way for support to be stopped.

They hoped to move him to a hospice but doctors warned he was too unstable to move by ambulance and it would "hasten premature deterioration".

The High Court ruled Archie should remain at Royal London Hospital in Whitechapel, east London.

The family sought permission to appeal against the decision, but that bid was rejected by three justices at the Court of Appeal.

They then asked the ECHR to intervene, but late on Friday, the court said the request could not be dealt with.

In her ruling earlier on Friday, Mrs Justice Theis concluded it was not in Archie's best interests to be moved.

She said: "Archie's best interests must remain at the core of any conclusions reached by this court.

"When considering the wishes of the family, why those wishes are held, the facilities at the hospice, what Archie is likely to have wanted... the risks involved in a transfer... and the increasing fragility of his medical condition, I am satisfied... he should remain at the hospital when treatment is withdrawn."

Mrs Justice Theis also noted Archie's family's "unconditional love and dedication", which she said had been a "golden thread that runs through this case".

"I hope now Archie can be afforded the opportunity for him to die in peaceful circumstances, with the family who meant so much to him as he clearly does to them."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-62444331

 

[Tiber]

It's all very tough.

If it means that much to the family I struggle to see why they won't just move him for his final hours like the family want. I know the official reason is it's too much risk, but if the hospital also says he has functionally been dead for months it doesn't seem a huge risk at this point if it gives the family comfort.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

It's all very tough.

If it means that much to the family I struggle to see why they won't just move him for his final hours like the family want. I know the official reason is it's too much risk, but if the hospital also says he has functionally been dead for months it doesn't seem a huge risk at this point if it gives the family comfort.

The mother says she only wants to move her son because they can't get privacy, which is due to the boy needing constant 1:1 care with a nurse. I'm actually appalled at some of the things she's been saying on Sky News (they're executing my child, the nurses don't care, they should be investigated etc)

The courts are only concerned with what the child needs. The poor boy doesn't know the difference, but the mum wants to put him at great risk during transport because she wants to be somewhere more quiet. That's putting her comfort before her child's safety, and should tell you everything.

 

[hobbers]

It's all very tough.

If it means that much to the family I struggle to see why they won't just move him for his final hours like the family want. I know the official reason is it's too much risk, but if the hospital also says he has functionally been dead for months it doesn't seem a huge risk at this point if it gives the family comfort.

The only reason the family wanted him moved is that they've burned all the bridges at the hospital accusing the nurses and doctors of x y and z.

If the court is ruling solely on what's in his best interests, then that is for him to die in a controlled environment with his family around him, not in the back of an ambulance.

 

[africanspur]

It's all very tough.

If it means that much to the family I struggle to see why they won't just move him for his final hours like the family want. I know the official reason is it's too much risk, but if the hospital also says he has functionally been dead for months it doesn't seem a huge risk at this point if it gives the family comfort.

Because this assumes that he gets to the hospice in the first place. If this kid's heart stopped beating in the back of the ambulance, I'm sure the mum would be the first to be in the media accusing the hospital of having killed her son etc etc.

Ultimately our responsibility is towards the patient, not towards the relatives. Often those interests overlap. Sometimes they don't and sometimes they are sadly directly contradictory.

As an aside, I don't know how paediatricians do it. Awfully stressful specialty.

 

[Red the Bear]

I just found out about this, I don't know what to say , It must be hell.

I really don't know if the courts are right on this one or not, I understand that it might be best to let him pass away with dignity but It doesn't feel right forcing his family like this, I doubt there's any right answers in this case.

Rip.

 

[Frosty]

Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-62455467

The family of Archie Battersbee have said nobody should go through what they had to and have called for an inquiry into the legal battle surrounding the withdrawal of his life support.

The 12-year-old, who was at the centre of a court row between his parents and doctors, died on Saturday.

In a statement, they said they were "stripped of all our rights".

Barts Health NHS Trust said its staff had provided "high quality care with extraordinary compassion".

Archie had been in hospital since being found unconscious at his home in Southend, Essex, in April.

He suffered severe brain injuries and needed life-sustaining support, including mechanical ventilation and drug treatment. He never regained consciousness.

'Backed into a corner'

In a statement released on Sunday, the family said the pressure of the process had been "unbelievable".

"We want something good to come out of this tragedy and the horrendous experience we have been put through by the system," they added.

"No parent or family must go through this again.

"We have been forced to fight a relentless legal battle by the hospital trust while faced with an unimaginable tragedy.

"We were backed into a corner by the system, stripped of all our rights, and have had to fight for Archie's real 'best interests' and right to live with everything stacked against us.

"This has now happened too often to parents who do not want their critically-ill children to have life-support removed.

"There must be an investigation and inquiry through the proper channels on what has happened to Archie, and we will be calling for change."

 

[Rhyme Animal]

So sad. RIP little man, and I hope, so much that you didn’t suffer.

I’ve found it very odd that there hasn’t been much talk of what actually happened to inflict such awful injuries on Archie. Like if it was a ‘social media challenge’ as stated, I’m incredibly surprised that there isn’t absolute uproar about whatever encouraged him to injure himself.

Or if it was something else, what? I mean it’s a 12 year old child ffs.

 

[hobbers]

You’d think any family going through this would want an enquiry into how social media drove a preteen to be hanging from the top step of a bannister. Not the court system.

 

[Drainy]

Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-62455467

The family of Archie Battersbee have said nobody should go through what they had to and have called for an inquiry into the legal battle surrounding the withdrawal of his life support.

The 12-year-old, who was at the centre of a court row between his parents and doctors, died on Saturday.

In a statement, they said they were "stripped of all our rights".

Barts Health NHS Trust said its staff had provided "high quality care with extraordinary compassion".

Archie had been in hospital since being found unconscious at his home in Southend, Essex, in April.

He suffered severe brain injuries and needed life-sustaining support, including mechanical ventilation and drug treatment. He never regained consciousness.

'Backed into a corner'

In a statement released on Sunday, the family said the pressure of the process had been "unbelievable".

"We want something good to come out of this tragedy and the horrendous experience we have been put through by the system," they added.

"No parent or family must go through this again.

"We have been forced to fight a relentless legal battle by the hospital trust while faced with an unimaginable tragedy.

"We were backed into a corner by the system, stripped of all our rights, and have had to fight for Archie's real 'best interests' and right to live with everything stacked against us.

"This has now happened too often to parents who do not want their critically-ill children to have life-support removed.

"There must be an investigation and inquiry through the proper channels on what has happened to Archie, and we will be calling for change."

'no, it's the legal system that is wrong'

 

[izec]

RIP Archie

 

[Pexbo]

You’d think any family going through this would want an enquiry into how social media drove a preteen to be hanging from the top step of a bannister. Not the court system.

From what I’ve read it’s more likely it was suicide and his home life was difficult to say the least.

I read this on Twitter and cannot verify it’s credibility.

 

[Damien]

From what I’ve read it’s more likely it was suicide and his home life was difficult to say the least.

I read this on Twitter and cannot verify it’s credibility.

His tiktok was called "painhub" with a bunch of numbers at the end, constant videos referencing depression. It's all so sad. No doubt in my mind it was suicide (no phone filming, method used) and after their first 30 media appearances they've dropped the mentions of a tiktok challenge to go down this different avenue of they know best and how he would have wanted them to fight for him despite what happened saying otherwise.

RIP Archie. Religious groups are leaping on this like vultures for their own means.

 

[hobbers]

It was 100% a suicide. It’s negligent of the bbc and others to keep this pandering nonsense about some fictitious tiktok challenge. Literally creating something out of nothing.

The fault still lies with letting children use social media, all the same. It’s obvious his use of social media played a part in it.

 

[Penna]

Poor Archie was essentially dead months ago, if you read the history of the progression of the brain scans (the Court documents are available online). I'm sure any parent in this situation would want everything to be attempted, but having now read a lot about this case online, things are not all as they might seem.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

It was 100% a suicide. It’s negligent of the bbc and others to keep this pandering nonsense about some fictitious tiktok challenge. Literally creating something out of nothing.

The fault still lies with letting children use social media, all the same. It’s obvious his use of social media played a part in it.

It's also negligent of them to claim he was in a coma, as if there was a chance he would suddenly wake back up. The kid was bloody brain dead, literally sinking into his spine.

 

[hobbers]

It's also negligent of them to claim he was in a coma, as if there was a chance he would suddenly wake back up. The kid was bloody brain dead, literally sinking into his spine.

Exactly, people in a coma dont have necrotic brain and lung tissue.