[sullydnl]

Ultimately I think he's a system player, whose strengths and weaknesses are suited to the CB role in the system ETH wants us to play. And if/when we get to the point where we're playing that system effectively he'll be fine.

But in our team as is we not only look miles away from performing that system correctly, we haven't even added the other requisite parts needed to make it function. Add in the natural time it takes to adapt to the physicality of the league as well and he's been thrown in at the deep end.

But then you can't wait until the system is working until you start adding the players who make the system work either. You just have to bear through the growing pains, which would have been lessened if we'd done a better job of changing the squad into one more suited to what ETH is trying to do.

 

[RuudTom83]

If it was just Martinez then you could start analysing his performance. But when the team has started exactly how then finished last season it’s difficult to come to any conclusions.

New signings get 1 season to adapt. But I’d let him sit out the Liverpool game just so he doesn’t get too affected.

 

[sebsheep]

Exactly. Yes, he was beaten for the setpiece goal but the how the feck did it even reach there ?

I don't really see how an extra 3-4 inches would have helped him on the 3rd goal either, despite commentators putting it down to him being short. He was stepping backwards and didn't manage to move into a position to compete for the ball properly.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

That side mauled nobody. Think you forget how wack we were under Van Gaal.

We literally beat City 4-2 and Liverpool numerous times.

This side just got smashed by Brentford.

 

[Cassidy]

He won some balls absolutely, but the point is that it does not necessarily translate to winning back possession. There were times when this was the easy way for Brentford to move the ball from their goalie /backline in to our half.

Not solely because of Martinez is the point.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Well that is clearly not true if you even watch 5 minutes of the games. I can distinctly remember him beating both Toney and Mbuemo in the air yesterday.

I don't know what to tell you... That's official PL stats

The stats Sully quoted has him winning just one yesterday

 

[VP89]

It's not as simple as who made the mistakes that caused the goals. How did the goals come about? How did they move up field so that we're under pressure in our own half?

They weren't beating our press with intricate play at the back, they were launching long balls up field, the type they wouldn't bother with if they didn't think they had a good chance of winning them. That's a problem.

Right - which of the 4 goals came about in buildup or mistakes, because of Martinez more than any other player?

 

[Cassidy]

I don't know what to tell you... That's official PL stats

The stats Sully quoted has him winning just one yesterday

You really did not see him win a single ariel duel? Ha

 

[Annihilate Now!]

You really did not see him win a single ariel duel? Ha

They're the official stats.

I don't recall him winning any, but I'm happy to be shown otherwise with any timestamps or anything.

 

[Leftback99]

Right - which of the 4 goals came about in buildup or mistakes, because of Martinez more than any other player?

I'd rather not go back and relive it to be honest.

If the Brentford manager himself thought it was a factor in the result I'll leave it at that.

Asked whether his side deliberately targeted the 24-year-old, Brentford boss Frank told Sky Sports: "We knew we'd more likely either win it or the second ball around it.

"Of course we looked at what Brighton did well against them, and Brighton are also like us in the way they want to play.

"Normally Brighton always build from the goalkeeper, but they went long every single time so of course we looked at that.

"We knew we had that weapon so that's why we did it."

 

[A-man]

They're the official stats.

I don't recall him winning any, but I'm happy to be shown otherwise with any timestamps or anything.

You really did not see him win a single ariel duel? Ha

It’s not enough to win an aerial. It must be a solid duel in the air or else it will end up under clearance. The same when he couldn’t defend for the third goal, he didn’t challenge enough for that to be a lost duel in the stats, even though most people would say he lost that aerial. This is why one must be a little careful with aerial stats.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Apart from being beaten in the air, anyone else think he’s partially at fault for their opener? Seemed to retreat far too deep and invite the shot, with a poor effort to block at the end of it.

 

[VP89]

I'd rather not go back and relive it to be honest.

If the Brentford manager himself thought it was a factor in the result I'll leave it at that.

Asked whether his side deliberately targeted the 24-year-old, Brentford boss Frank told Sky Sports: "We knew we'd more likely either win it or the second ball around it.

"Of course we looked at what Brighton did well against them, and Brighton are also like us in the way they want to play.

"Normally Brighton always build from the goalkeeper, but they went long every single time so of course we looked at that.

"We knew we had that weapon so that's why we did it."

I watched the whole interview. Did you?

He doesnt single out Martinez. They ask him if they targetted him and he agreed it was part of their game plan but obviously not the sole route in.

He said the corner specifically was a collective issue, because at 2 goals down the losing team will be low on confidence and the winning team will feel invincible. Worth also noting the corner wasnt fecking dealt with by DDG or at the back post before Martinez was put in a compromising position.

This idea that Martinez was the problem is so laughable its a joke.

 

[Champ]

no he didn't you need to stop drinking while watching games.

he lost 1 duel all half which was the goal, that's barely repeatedly is it?

Drinking is the only way to get through the game at the moment

But I believe someone has already pointed out he hasn't actually won any aerial duels yet, now stats are collected differently and without context are fairly meaningless.

But the issue still remains that of two teams we have faced this season, both have targeted Martinez, which of itself is an issue as it's clearly an effective strategy!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I watched the whole interview. Did you?

He doesnt single out Martinez. They ask him if they targetted him and he agreed it was part of their game plan but obviously not the sole route in.

He said the corner specifically was a collective issue, because at 2 goals down the losing team will be low on confidence and the winning team will feel invincible. Worth also noting the corner wasnt fecking dealt with by DDG or at the back post before Martinez was put in a compromising position.

This idea that Martinez was the problem is so laughable its a joke.

The “compromising position” was to deal with the ball in the same way it wasn’t dealt with at the back post. He was clearly at least equally culpable to anyone else.

 

[VP89]

Apart from being beaten in the air, anyone else think he’s partially at fault for their opener? Seemed to retreat far too deep and invite the shot, with a poor effort to block at the end of it.

No.

 

[Leftback99]

I watched the whole interview. Did you?

He doesnt single out Martinez. They ask him if they targetted him and he agreed it was part of their game plan but obviously not the sole route in.

He said the corner specifically was a collective issue, because at 2 goals down the losing team will be low on confidence and the winning team will feel invincible. Worth also noting the corner wasnt fecking dealt with by DDG or at the back post before Martinez was put in a compromising position.

This idea that Martinez was the problem is so laughable its a joke.

You're right it is laughable, because no one is saying Martinez was THE problem. We have too many to count. But to deny it was an issue at all is laughable.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No.

I just watched it again. He wasn’t retreating too deep. That was Shaw. Poor effort at a block though.

 

[Cassidy]

I just watched it again. He wasn’t retreating too deep. That was Shaw. Shocking effort at a block though. He turned his back.

You seem to be reaching for things here

 

[JPRouve]

Apart from being beaten in the air, anyone else think he’s partially at fault for their opener? Seemed to retreat far too deep and invite the shot, with a poor effort to block at the end of it.

No, it was a bad shot opportunity and his positioning was perfectly normal, that's how team deal with this type of situation almost all the time. There is only one person at fault, it's the goalkeeper who messed up on a poor shot attempt.

 

[sullydnl]

Well that is clearly not true if you even watch 5 minutes of the games. I can distinctly remember him beating both Toney and Mbuemo in the air yesterday.

I don't know what to tell you... That's official PL stats

The stats Sully quoted has him winning just one yesterday

From what I've read online the Fbref definition of an aerial duel requires it to literally be two players in the air at the same time competing for the ball

But that ignores other situations where one or both of the players aren't jumping to compete for the ball. So if Martinez is clever and nips in ahead of the CF to the ball, it doesn't count. Or if Martinez knows he isn't winning the duel and opts to let the CF go for it without challenging him in the air, it also doesn't count.

An example would be Welbeck's header in the below at the 1.28 mark.


You could count that as Welbeck winning the header, because he obviously gets to it first. You could also count it as Martinez successfully beating Welbeck, because his challenge for the ball immediately clears it. But I don't think Fbref would count it as an aerial duel at all, because they aren't both in the air challenging for it at the same time. They'd see it as Martinez blocking an attempt on goal or something.

 

[fallengt]

Apart from being beaten in the air, anyone else think he’s partially at fault for their opener? Seemed to retreat far too deep and invite the shot, with a poor effort to block at the end of it.

Was 100% Fred's fault, his positioning was awful. Ronaldo lost the ball but he got no support from our mid field.

 

[Cassidy]

Was 100% Fred's fault, his positioning was awful. Ronaldo lost the ball but he got no support from our mid field.

Quite obviously not 100% ha

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Was 100% Fred's fault, his positioning was awful. Ronaldo lost the ball but he got no support from our mid field.

this place…

 

[Melvin Udall]

I watched the whole interview. Did you?

He doesnt single out Martinez. They ask him if they targetted him and he agreed it was part of their game plan but obviously not the sole route in.

He said the corner specifically was a collective issue, because at 2 goals down the losing team will be low on confidence and the winning team will feel invincible. Worth also noting the corner wasnt fecking dealt with by DDG or at the back post before Martinez was put in a compromising position.

This idea that Martinez was the problem is so laughable its a joke.

Who is saying that he was the main or only problem? That’s not what I’m seeing on here.everyone knows that the glazers, Maguire, etc are huge issues on their own. What I am seeing on here is disappointment that our new 57 million pound center back has not improved the team. People were worried about his height when he signed, and it’s already been a problem just two games in. Also, he was benched at halftime. That’s a pretty strong indication that ETH was unhappy with his performance, regardless of what ETH might say to the press.

 

[Adam-Utd]

From what I've read online the Fbref definition of an aerial duel requires it to literally be two players in the air at the same time competing for the ball

But that ignores other situations where one or both of the players aren't jumping to compete for the ball. So if Martinez is clever and nips in ahead of the CF to the ball, it doesn't count. Or if Martinez knows he isn't winning the duel and opts to let the CF go for it without challenging him in the air, it also doesn't count.

An example would be Welbeck's header in the below at the 1.28 mark.


You could count that as Welbeck winning the header, because he obviously gets to it first. You could also count it as Martinez successfully beating Welbeck, because his challenge for the ball immediately clears it. But I don't think Fbref would count it as an aerial duel at all, because they aren't both in the air challenging for it at the same time. They'd see it as Martinez blocking an attempt on goal or something.

At the end of the day if the ball gets launched long and he gets to the header before the striker, he's won that duel for me.

I don't really care how the nerds want to differentiate it. Anybody who watched that game yesterday can see he won more than his fair share of headers.

People who say he had a nightmare or was bullied are purely sheep who clearly can't see what they are watching. They're sucked in by the commentators fitting their agenda.

The only true error he made all half was the slip for the 3rd and missed 1 slide tackle down the line.

 

[VP89]

You're right it is laughable, because no one is saying Martinez was THE problem. We have too many to count. But to deny it was an issue at all is laughable.

I never once denied his height was an issue. Im saying its no way near as material as the idiots on SkySports claim.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You seem to be reaching for things here

Maybe. I remember wondering why the feck nobody closed the shot down. Watching the replays there’s definitely something wrong with our defending. Why is Martinez (our LCB) having to sprint so far to his left to try and block a shot from the centre of the box? Probably down to our usual complete lack of communication and organisation, so might be harsh to blame the new guy!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

At the end of the day if the ball gets launched long and he gets to the header before the striker, he's won that duel for me.

I don't really care how the nerds want to differentiate it. Anybody who watched that game yesterday can see he won more than his fair share of headers.

People who say he had a nightmare or was bullied are purely sheep who clearly can't see what they are watching. They're sucked in by the commentators fitting their agenda.

The only true error he made all half was the slip for the 3rd and missed 1 slide tackle down the line.

Are you blaming the commentator’s agenda for him getting subbed off at half time?

 

[Cassidy]

Who is saying that he was the main or only problem? That’s not what I’m seeing on here.everyone knows that the glazers, Maguire, etc are huge issues on their own. What I am seeing on here is disappointment that our new 57 million pound center back has not improved the team. People were worried about his height when he signed, and it’s already been a problem just two games in. Also, he was benched at halftime. That’s a pretty strong indication that ETH was unhappy with his performance, regardless of what ETH might say to the press.

Its not been a big a problem as is being made out by “I told you so” merchants.

 

[VP89]

Who is saying that he was the main or only problem? That’s not what I’m seeing on here.everyone knows that the glazers, Maguire, etc are huge issues on their own. What I am seeing on here is disappointment that our new 57 million pound center back has not improved the team. People were worried about his height when he signed, and it’s already been a problem just two games in. Also, he was benched at halftime. That’s a pretty strong indication that ETH was unhappy with his performance, regardless of what ETH might say to the press.

SkySports are driving the narrative with their article header and quotes.

 

[fallengt]

this place…

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Still funny. 100% his fault. Good one.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Are you blaming the commentator’s agenda for him getting subbed off at half time?

I don't know why he was subbed, maybe he wanted to take him out of the firing line? maybe he had an injury?

For all the talk of 'bullied, targeted' he barely put a foot wrong.

I'd say the issue of having 2 midgets in CM with barely any physicality was much more of a reason why the long ball was working.

Martinez could win the header but they'd sweep the ball up.

 

[sammyhol]

There are people here desperate to defend a new signing that are reaching further than Lisandro has to when getting something of the kitchen counter

 

[sebsheep]

Still funny. 100% his fault. Good one.

You were looking to pass some of the blame to Martínez a few minutes ago.

 

[Adam-Utd]

There are people here desperate to defend a new signing that are reaching further than Lisandro has to when getting something of the kitchen counter

People here are also desperate to try and blame the new defender because he's small? doesn't matter how he plays though, small = bad right?

 

[fallengt]

Still funny. 100% his fault. Good one.

Was Ronaldo's fault then. He broke De Gea in the 2018 world cup. DDG never been the same ever since

 

[bond19821982]

Sorry, what's this supposed to mean ?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You were looking to pass some of the blame to Martínez a few minutes ago.

Now google the difference between “some of” and “100%”.

Then rewatch the goal and try and work out the identity of the United player who is closest to the player that takes the shot.