Ok I can get behind this.
Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful
- Thread starter GaryLifo
- Start date
The beauty of homophobia?
Hypothetically if some foreigners did act against those laws, fully expecting and accepting the consequences as a form of protest, would that be absurd in your opinion? And I'm not talking about public displays of affections, because that's illegal regardless of sexuality and so just muddies the waters in this hypothetical
Yeah I agree, although I think those issues pale in comparison to the human rights issues around the stadium constructions and homophobic laws. It's absurd to choose Qatar in the first place, but interrupting the football season isn't a moral issue for instance, although of course it highlights the absurdity of it all.
Ironic. Given the same logic applies for people who are offended by Qatar hosting the world cup. If they don't like it, they can just choose to not go or watch it.
Sarcasm is dead for real.
Irony seems to be very much alive, though.
Not sure who signed that particular statement off. Poorly said.
He'd have been better off telling fans that go the reality (which I'm sure most know, but is worth reinforcing) - it's not worth going to Qatar to take a personal stand over these issues unless you're happy to accept the potential consequences. You're only going to get yourself into shit. It's less about respect and more about pragmatism.
He'd have been better off telling fans that go the reality (which I'm sure most know, but is worth reinforcing) - it's not worth going to Qatar to take a personal stand over these issues unless you're happy to accept the potential consequences. You're only going to get yourself into shit. It's less about respect and more about pragmatism.
Spot on. It's just a big boy club dictating what is morally right and wrong based on their own cultures and values. It is definitely a form of colonisation. Either bend to our rules, or risk being sanctioned to shit.
Not just socially either. More economic ideals. America and the UK destabilized the entire Middle East which killed millions of people and has fecked them up for generations to come (well, that part is not new to the British and their imperial ways). But let's shit on Qatar because they said no PDA!
Western countries (at least the people in power) are a bunch of hypocrites. Apparently human rights only matter when it's Russia or Qatar. Saudi are all good as long as they maintain relations with the US and UK. And feck human rights when they destroyed so many countries for oil and power.
I am not condoning the mistreatment of gays, or anyone based on their religion, country etc. Just pointing out the hypocrisy, human rights is not a switch you can turn on and off based on your convenience.
Going part of the way is not the same thing as going in the wrong direction.
Qatar haven't been sanctioned. Quite the opposite, they've been awarded a huge international tournament. Nor have they bent to any western rules as far as I'm aware.
If it is colonisation it's a shit job of it.
Colonisation 
Isn’t it more about judging the feasibility of holding an international tournament? A lot of the comments in here seem to be about all of the horrible shit that a myriad of countries have been involved in. I don’t think they’re relevant to the point though.
The issue here is that the countries laws and traditions make it a less than welcoming destination for a specific demographic of people, making it (in my opinion) an unsuitable destination for an international tournament, that should always welcome anyone from any background, ethnicity, orientation etc.
It's not just your opinion, more so the opinion of anyone with any sort of common sense. Hosting the worlds second largest sporting event (Olympics first?) in a region with absolutely no infrastructure for football, a questionable human and civil rights record, and then postponing the event to the Winter is foolish at best.
I am a citizen of the country that was colonised. Its false equivalency to compare action of foreign invaders at that stage of human civilisation to the current conversation. No one is even saying Qatar as a country needs to be miscommunicated or boycotted or economically isolated. Having a baseline expectation of basic rights of all humans being respected irrespective of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation for it to hold a global sporting event seems like a bare minimum requirement.
We've already pointed out that this is one of many issues related to Qatar hosting a WC. Therefore the hypocrisy angle isn't a legiitmate point because it doesn't account for all the other problems with Qatar hosting that have nothing to do with human rights.
Yep. Can people really not identify that elements of culture might actually be morally reprehensible? The confederate states claimed slavery was part of their heritage, and it was. So fecking what?
So now the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a tool of western oppression. What a thread.
To be honest most of the other issues you highlighted aren't really issues. The only valid one is the slave labor one, everything else screams "it's inconvenient for Western Europe so it's an issue"
Its inconvenient for football given that Europe and South America are at the center of the football world. Maybe next time the venal fecks at FIFA should find a proper country with a football pedigree to receive their bribes from.
The Saudis do it. And we know what all arabs are like ... Right?
On a serious note, I'm gay and it's part of life that you avoid certain places. I live in Holland and not rural Poland for a reason (no disrepect to our red Polaks).
Ideally there should be some sensible standards regarding inclusivity that hosts should adhere to. That way the "our country, our rules" bollocks doesn't fly (which it does now).
"They hate women, gays and slaves. It's their culture, be respectful!"
Nah. Feck off.
"Supporting human rights is modern day colonialism"
Nah. Feck off.
Can't the silent majority stay silent instead of vomiting their vitriol.
Nah. Feck off.
"Supporting human rights is modern day colonialism"
Nah. Feck off.
Can't the silent majority stay silent instead of vomiting their vitriol.
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The single biggest disconnect I see with western morals is timelines.. they don't realise that the rest of the world is not on the same timeline of development.
Europe Industrialised in the 1800. China's only been doing it the last 50 years. People rightly decry the treatment of Uighurs in labour camps, and yet very few people realise just how much western economies relied on slavery to build their own countries when the west was industrialising. Slaves quite literally built modern society by providing the labour for things like sugar, wool etc harvesting. If you read into it's surprising just how widespread slavery was here in the UK, cities like Liverpool and Manchester were built off of it.
Western countries decreminalised sexual relationships what, 50 years ago? Qatar and the middle east are not on the same developmental timeline as the west, that's obvious, you cannot expect them to overturn 2 millennia of their own culture when their society is at a completely different developmental stage to western countries. The whole notion that every other country has to confirm to western standards of LGBT rights despite western countries having a near 200+ year head start on other countries politically and economy just smacks of entitlement. Obviously LGBT people deserve respect and equality, but it's also not hard to say, okay we understand why you think they way you do, I don't agree with it but we respect and will do our best to conform.
Europe Industrialised in the 1800. China's only been doing it the last 50 years. People rightly decry the treatment of Uighurs in labour camps, and yet very few people realise just how much western economies relied on slavery to build their own countries when the west was industrialising. Slaves quite literally built modern society by providing the labour for things like sugar, wool etc harvesting. If you read into it's surprising just how widespread slavery was here in the UK, cities like Liverpool and Manchester were built off of it.
Western countries decreminalised sexual relationships what, 50 years ago? Qatar and the middle east are not on the same developmental timeline as the west, that's obvious, you cannot expect them to overturn 2 millennia of their own culture when their society is at a completely different developmental stage to western countries. The whole notion that every other country has to confirm to western standards of LGBT rights despite western countries having a near 200+ year head start on other countries politically and economy just smacks of entitlement. Obviously LGBT people deserve respect and equality, but it's also not hard to say, okay we understand why you think they way you do, I don't agree with it but we respect and will do our best to conform.
I don't really accept this "we're on different timelines". Countries don't exist in vacuums these days. 150 years ago no-one in the Middle East had much idea about what was happening in the West, and vice-versa. No-one travelled between countries as a matter of course, no-one read anything about the culture and values of far-away countries.
We can't wait for a hundred years to enable other countries to "catch up" in terms of human rights. The people ruling those countries have all their human rights protected (and live in the lap of luxury). They know what's right and what's wrong. Their citizens are entitled to the same rights.
The religion issue is a red herring and a way for those who rule with an iron fist to maintain their complete control. If it wasn't religion being used as the excuse it would be something else, as in China or North Korea.
We can't wait for a hundred years to enable other countries to "catch up" in terms of human rights. The people ruling those countries have all their human rights protected (and live in the lap of luxury). They know what's right and what's wrong. Their citizens are entitled to the same rights.
The religion issue is a red herring and a way for those who rule with an iron fist to maintain their complete control. If it wasn't religion being used as the excuse it would be something else, as in China or North Korea.
Absolute rubbish.
Justifying fecking slavery and draconian social views because “they’re not as developed as us”.
What our own ancestors did was appalling but that doesn’t mean we should just let those views continue to thrive elsewhere. It’s our responsibility to bring forth global enlightenment and education. I mean feck me we’ve done more than enough damage to the Middle East ourselves over the last 20 years nevermind the last 200, the absolute LEAST we can do is push for equality of life as well as protections for the working classes.
Using “development timelines” is such a weird view to internalise your own prejudices. If you actually cared you wouldn’t be defending those practises under a thinly veiled justification. Countries are not a vacuum, and in some areas these countries can be seen ahead of the west. It’s downright offensive to them as well to say they’re 100 years behind us. They’re choosing to use slaves, they’re choosing to oppress women and LGBTQ minorities.
Global events like the World Cup are absolutely opportunities to shame these back-wards cultures into the modern world. They’re buying the west’s attention, and they want further links with the west. If they won’t play ball with basic human decency why should we economically or socially engage with them?
This is so far beyond the pale of “respecting a countries culture”. Anyone in this thread who has attempted to defend slavery, racism, patriarchal misogyny and homophobia should be ashamed of themselves.
Can't drink wine and eat pork at Qatar ?
No it’s not. When you are bidding to host an event on your own for the whole world and after bribing, slavery and whatnot you get the event to host for the whole world then that event is for everyone and you must be welcoming of the situation regardless whatever your religion may or may not allow. The onus is on Qatar to understand it not the other way round.
It’s like begging to hold an event at your home and inviting Multi cultural guests for dinner but telling them to follow your shit bigoted house rules which discriminate towards some guests but you expect them to follow it anyway or there would be consequences. Well in that case, either don’t fecking hold the event or be welcoming for everyone.
Are they contractually obliged to change their laws because they won the WC bid? If not they don't have to and anybody going there has to abide by their laws. That's as simple as it is. Hopefully this event can somehow be used as a vehicle for change there. But without some sort of revolution, it would be moronic for random folk going there to expect a country with an archaic mindset to suddenly transform for them as 'guests'.
Yap. Their place. Their say. Dont like their laws. Just dont go there.
As I understand it, was told this during the South Africa WC, the country hosting does give up certain rights and becomes a FIFA run place for the duration. Obviously not in all aspects but the stadia etc. Think they had war ships in the waters and what not.
That would be good. But I don't trust FIFA nor the Quatari regime to have agreed on that.
Doesn't change the fact the tournament should never have been given to them. How many people died on their construction sites again?
The arts, cuisine, architecture, geographical etc are all things that make the world different.
Discrimination of people isn’t one of those things I’d describe as beauty. Weird to even suggest so.
No it actually makes perfect sense. When you want to criticise something you just need to make sure you criticise everything bad that's every happened too - just to be fair.
So many people are missing the point.
For example:
For example:
Have you read some of the complaints of the people in this thread?
It was a terrible analogy. Drugs can ruin lives and destroy communities. Taking drugs is also a choice, being gay isn't.
Religion is also a choice I might add, so following one which discriminates against certain groups based on sex or gender is not something that I think deserves too much respect.
Unfortunately gay people will have to be careful in Qatar, but let's not confuse fear and respect. Fearing someone is not the same as respecting them, especially if that respect is not even close to being reciprocated through no fault of your own.
This. I don't see why this uproar has occurred in this thread.
You're going to an entirely different country and accordingly have to obey their laws. If their laws seem non-sense or make you feel like your rights are being taken away from you, just don't go.
I agree that slavery, discrimination and corruption should not be tolerated. Any modern nation should have policies aiming to protect against such problems and Qatar is still far in doing so.
But I think it’s very egotistical to say Westeners need to bring “global enlightenment and education” to these folks whom do have a very different upbringing and cultural views as you and me. Do you know where do these views come from? Do you know the background surrounding their views towards women, for example? I do not agree with such views but at the same time I don’t know why they are there in the first place, and if these have deep roots into something established for hundreds of years I don’t think an argument like “your traditions are unfair and anti-X and anti-Y. Mine are much better” is not going to solve anything.
Lastly, using the shame coin to criticize people who do not adopt to your views is childish in my opinion. Prejudices are part of human nature and I bet you prejudice people from other groups in ways you don’t even understand. That is why it’s important understanding the origin of everything.
I kind of hoped it was obvious enough that my post wasn't serious.
Alcohol and pork is available for purchase in Qatar