F1 2022 Season

[hobbers]

Are the media biased or just calling it as it is? You could argue that those coming out in support of Horner are the biased ones. The man is an odious little cretin and is the most unlikable team boss I can recall in a long time. I am not fundamentally against Red Bull, I am fundamentally against Horner, and I’m British. There’s no bias there. Just one person seeing another person as extremely unlikable. I don’t dislike Horner because of the nationality of his drivers, I dislike Horner because of Horner. Likewise, I don’t dislike Verstappen because he’s Dutch, I dislike him because of his generally classless and ungracious behaviour, and the fact that for a long time he was a danger to those around him on the track. In my book it’s one thing to be a sore loser, but it takes a special kind of snake to be a sore winner; which is exactly what we’ve seen from Verstappen.

The fact these two won the championship last year with some laughably corrupt race stewarding, all while Horner screamed on the radio, and then to top it all off we found out they cheated on the cost cap too, just goes further to position these guys as pantomime villains. Because of their actions, not their nationality or some inherent bias. That 2021 Verstappen win, will always have an asterisk next to it, and many, myself included, will see it as completely illegitimate.

I don’t think anyone is against the creation of a siege mentality, for the sake of leadership in sports, as we’ve seen many revered managers do the same thing in football. But it’s a fine line between that and purposely stoking division that I think Horner crossed a long time ago.

Horner is a horrible little man, and I think while the sport is richer for the competition Red Bull provide, it is all the poorer for the participation of this particular individual. No matter where you are from.

Horner might live in a few heads in this thread but it looks like he's bought up a few hundred acres of land and built some apartment complexes in yours.

Anyway, I never said the press dislike the foreign dominance in F1 because they're foreign. They end up cultivating an irrational dislike for them because they are all mad stans for the British drivers of the time and get consumed by their own bitterness when they get beaten.

You prove that pretty nicely with your Max hatred. He's a far better character than Russell, on and off the track. Arguably less of a twat than Lando as well, given how he's acted this year.

 

[simonhch]

Horner might live in a few heads in this thread but it looks like he's bought up a few hundred acres of land and built some apartment complexes in yours.

Anyway, I never said the press dislike the foreign dominance in F1 because they're foreign. They end up cultivating an irrational dislike for them because they are all mad stans for the British drivers of the time and get consumed by their own bitterness when they get beaten.

You really didn’t address anything I said with anything even approaching a convincing rebuttal. The refrain of living in someone’s head “rent free” is an overused trope, deployed by respondents who have little in the way of a factual or compelling argument, so instead resort to terms of belittlement popularised by sheeple on social media. It’s use in this instance is no surprise as you rolled it out previously in this debate in an attempt to shut down other posters.

With regards to you not saying the British press were against foreign drivers because they were foreign, your words were:

“The British media were biased against Schumacher, and Alonso, and Vettel, and Rosberg, and now Verstappen. You'd have to be living in cuckoo land to not recognise that.”

Which certainly reads an an implication towards xenophobia. Far be it from me to say elements of the British media aren’t xenophobic, because they certainly are, the insinuation in this case is clearly that Red Bull face bias because Verstappen is Dutch. Not because Verstappen and Horner have acted poorly on numerous occasions and been the beneficiaries of corrupt and incompetent stewardship, as well as actively participated in subverting the financial regulations governing the sport. Both of which bestowed championship winning advantages on them.

If having a contrarian opinion on the popularity, morality, or likability of anyone automatically means that person is living “rent free” in the opiner’s head, then I suppose we must all have a roster of tenants.

 

[hobbers]

You really didn’t address anything I said with anything even approaching a convincing rebuttal. The refrain of living in someone’s head “rent free” is an overused trope, deployed by respondents who have little in the way of a factual or compelling argument, so instead resort to terms of belittlement popularised by sheeple on social media. It’s use in this instance is no surprise as you rolled it out previously in this debate in an attempt to shut down other posters.

With regards to you not saying the British press were against foreign drivers because they were foreign, your words were:

“The British media were biased against Schumacher, and Alonso, and Vettel, and Rosberg, and now Verstappen. You'd have to be living in cuckoo land to not recognise that.”

Which certainly reads an an implication towards xenophobia. Far be it from me to say elements of the British media aren’t xenophobic, because they certainly are, the insinuation in this case is clearly that Red Bull face bias because Verstappen is Dutch. Not because Verstappen and Horner have acted poorly on numerous occasions and been the beneficiaries of corrupt and incompetent stewardship, as well as actively participated in subverting the financial regulations governing the sport. Both of which bestowed championship winning advantages on them.

If having a contrarian opinion on the popularity, morality, or likability of anyone automatically means that person is living “rent free” in the opiner’s head, then I suppose we must all have a roster of tenants.

If you wanted a convincing rebuttal you should have tempted me in with something resembling a cogent argument. Not just another of your furious rants about Horner and Max behaving like a team principal and F1 driver.

The verbose forum debater act is nice and all but your post history in last years thread kinda undermines it.

 

[dinostar77]

Are the media biased or just calling it as it is? You could argue that those coming out in support of Horner are the biased ones. The man is an odious little cretin and is the most unlikable team boss I can recall in a long time. I am not fundamentally against Red Bull, I am fundamentally against Horner, and I’m British. There’s no bias there. Just one person seeing another person as extremely unlikable. I don’t dislike Horner because of the nationality of his drivers, I dislike Horner because of Horner. Likewise, I don’t dislike Verstappen because he’s Dutch, I dislike him because of his generally classless and ungracious behaviour, and the fact that for a long time he was a danger to those around him on the track. In my book it’s one thing to be a sore loser, but it takes a special kind of snake to be a sore winner; which is exactly what we’ve seen from Verstappen.

The fact these two won the championship last year with some laughably corrupt race stewarding, all while Horner screamed on the radio, and then to top it all off we found out they cheated on the cost cap too, just goes further to position these guys as pantomime villains. Because of their actions, not their nationality or some inherent bias. That 2021 Verstappen win, will always have an asterisk next to it, and many, myself included, will see it as completely illegitimate.

I don’t think anyone is against the creation of a siege mentality, for the sake of leadership in sports, as we’ve seen many revered managers do the same thing in football. But it’s a fine line between that and purposely stoking division that I think Horner crossed a long time ago.

Horner is a horrible little man, and I think while the sport is richer for the competition Red Bull provide, it is all the poorer for the participation of this particular individual. No matter where you are from.

Agree well said.

 

[Drawfull]

Are the media biased or just calling it as it is? You could argue that those coming out in support of Horner are the biased ones. The man is an odious little cretin and is the most unlikable team boss I can recall in a long time. I am not fundamentally against Red Bull, I am fundamentally against Horner, and I’m British. There’s no bias there. Just one person seeing another person as extremely unlikable. I don’t dislike Horner because of the nationality of his drivers, I dislike Horner because of Horner. Likewise, I don’t dislike Verstappen because he’s Dutch, I dislike him because of his generally classless and ungracious behaviour, and the fact that for a long time he was a danger to those around him on the track. In my book it’s one thing to be a sore loser, but it takes a special kind of snake to be a sore winner; which is exactly what we’ve seen from Verstappen.

The fact these two won the championship last year with some laughably corrupt race stewarding, all while Horner screamed on the radio, and then to top it all off we found out they cheated on the cost cap too, just goes further to position these guys as pantomime villains. Because of their actions, not their nationality or some inherent bias. That 2021 Verstappen win, will always have an asterisk next to it, and many, myself included, will see it as completely illegitimate.

I don’t think anyone is against the creation of a siege mentality, for the sake of leadership in sports, as we’ve seen many revered managers do the same thing in football. But it’s a fine line between that and purposely stoking division that I think Horner crossed a long time ago.

Horner is a horrible little man, and I think while the sport is richer for the competition Red Bull provide, it is all the poorer for the participation of this particular individual. No matter where you are from.

Spot on.

 

[simonhch]

If you wanted a convincing rebuttal you should have tempted me in with something resembling a cogent argument. Not just another of your furious rants about Horner and Max behaving like a team principal and F1 driver.

The verbose forum debater act is nice and all but your post history in last years thread kinda undermines it.

Just more of the same from you. A pivot this time from “rent free” living, to “furious rants”. But essentially all vain attempts at belittlement. Nothing to dissuade from the debunking of your theories or the easily observable poor behaviour of Horner and Verstappen. I make no claim as to not being upset at the results of last years championship, and the role of the afore mentioned two in securing that illegitimate outcome. Nor do I, as a fan of the sport, either hide or deny my distaste and disapproval for the behaviour of the individuals in question. In fact, that’s really the whole point of my original post. Whether I’m calm or angry when I say it, is neither here nor there when it comes to the content of what I’m saying.

 

[simonhch]

Very well said.

Agree well said.

Spot on.

Thank you.

 

[simonhch]

presumably as red bull "allegedly" thought they were accounting for expenses correctly in 2021 they will have continued with the same practices in 2022 and being so far through the season I guess they run a real risk of being over the cap again this year so probably they have cut right back on the catering and even stopped some car developments

I would agree. Being in excess of the cap for two consecutive seasons really wouldnt be good.

I would say that you are both drawing the most logical conclusion here. It would follow logic that these sudden changes at the last minute, to a long term plan, is most likely precipitated by their probable and impending violation of cap rules for this year. For the sake of their team, and the ever widening toxicity and divisions now rife in the sport, it can only be a good thing if they are able to avoid violations two years in a row. If they were to break the cap again, this year, it would cause so much damage to the integrity of the sport; especially, as it is, that it’s integrity has already been severely tarnished by the now infamous Masi/budget cap championship win.

Sooner rather than later we need some rapprochement between the two sides, both in the paddock and on the stands. Right now, things are set on a pretty ugly path and Horner and Verstappen are only deepening divisions. His (Horner’s) recent manipulative gaslighting of his critics as causing mental health issues in his team, is typical of a man who doesn’t have a self reflective bone in his body, and seemingly no capacity to hold himself accountable for his actions that led us to this point. It’s everyone else’s fault, he’s the victim, and his poor work colleagues are suffering because fans, pundits, commentators, and the media, have the temerity to call out the legitimacy of a championship won under both highly controversial, and illegitimate circumstances. If his team and driver, under his auspices, had behaved properly in the first place, there wouldn’t be this level of scrutiny and negative commentary. He’s further manipulating by attempting to create the impression that he is protecting and shielding his employees from the villainous fans and commentators, yet it strikes me that having created these circumstances in the first place, what they need protecting from, is him.

I would dearly love to be able to talk about the racing, and just the racing next season, but with the characters involved I think that we are more than likely set up for more ridiculous, off the track, drama. Unfortunately, much like the rest of society these days, the fans also seem extremely polarised, and I only see that getting worse in the near future.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Are the media biased or just calling it as it is? You could argue that those coming out in support of Horner are the biased ones. The man is an odious little cretin and is the most unlikable team boss I can recall in a long time. I am not fundamentally against Red Bull, I am fundamentally against Horner, and I’m British. There’s no bias there. Just one person seeing another person as extremely unlikable. I don’t dislike Horner because of the nationality of his drivers, I dislike Horner because of Horner. Likewise, I don’t dislike Verstappen because he’s Dutch, I dislike him because of his generally classless and ungracious behaviour, and the fact that for a long time he was a danger to those around him on the track. In my book it’s one thing to be a sore loser, but it takes a special kind of snake to be a sore winner; which is exactly what we’ve seen from Verstappen.

The fact these two won the championship last year with some laughably corrupt race stewarding, all while Horner screamed on the radio, and then to top it all off we found out they cheated on the cost cap too, just goes further to position these guys as pantomime villains. Because of their actions, not their nationality or some inherent bias. That 2021 Verstappen win, will always have an asterisk next to it, and many, myself included, will see it as completely illegitimate.

I don’t think anyone is against the creation of a siege mentality, for the sake of leadership in sports, as we’ve seen many revered managers do the same thing in football. But it’s a fine line between that and purposely stoking division that I think Horner crossed a long time ago.

Horner is a horrible little man, and I think while the sport is richer for the competition Red Bull provide, it is all the poorer for the participation of this particular individual. No matter where you are from.

Totally agree.

 

[hobbers]

Who’d have thought Syed was a caf member.

Gatekeeping who gets to talk about mental health and who gets to suffer from bullying is next level classless sophistry. All because their favourite driver isn’t winning.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Are the media biased or just calling it as it is? You could argue that those coming out in support of Horner are the biased ones. The man is an odious little cretin and is the most unlikable team boss I can recall in a long time. I am not fundamentally against Red Bull, I am fundamentally against Horner, and I’m British. There’s no bias there. Just one person seeing another person as extremely unlikable. I don’t dislike Horner because of the nationality of his drivers, I dislike Horner because of Horner. Likewise, I don’t dislike Verstappen because he’s Dutch, I dislike him because of his generally classless and ungracious behaviour, and the fact that for a long time he was a danger to those around him on the track. In my book it’s one thing to be a sore loser, but it takes a special kind of snake to be a sore winner; which is exactly what we’ve seen from Verstappen.

The fact these two won the championship last year with some laughably corrupt race stewarding, all while Horner screamed on the radio, and then to top it all off we found out they cheated on the cost cap too, just goes further to position these guys as pantomime villains. Because of their actions, not their nationality or some inherent bias. That 2021 Verstappen win, will always have an asterisk next to it, and many, myself included, will see it as completely illegitimate.

I don’t think anyone is against the creation of a siege mentality, for the sake of leadership in sports, as we’ve seen many revered managers do the same thing in football. But it’s a fine line between that and purposely stoking division that I think Horner crossed a long time ago.

Horner is a horrible little man, and I think while the sport is richer for the competition Red Bull provide, it is all the poorer for the participation of this particular individual. No matter where you are from.

Perfect responce.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

OK its the Express but still.


Max Verstappen has been told he could "fund the team" after Red Bull were hit with a major fine for breaking cost cap rules. Ex-F1 driver David Coulthard admitted Verstappen was "earning significant money" which he could put back into the constructor during their current crisis.

However, he revealed Verstappen would not be getting affected by the off-track issues despite the public humiliation for the team. He told Channel 4: "I think Max is just so focused on what he has to do. He's just numb to the political side.

"Of course, he feels for his team, they're taking a financial hit. He's earning significant money, if he feels really bad he can help fund the team for that. But I think there's always a background noise in Formula One. It doesn't matter whether it's Schumacher era or Hamilton's and some of his amazing victories, there's always going to be a little bit of controversy."


Max Verstappen told he can 'help fund the team' after Red Bull hit with cost cap penalty (msn.com)

 

[slyadams]

He said it multiple times, and the underlying message was pretty obviously not referring to the safety car. I appreciate your posts and I think we would get on over a pint or two mate but this one seems to me to be a bit willfully thick.

As I said earlier, Kravitz is more than welcome to express that opinion on other platforms - but for him to do so on an official F1-licensed broadcast is out of bounds.

I've found this is a strange take because its so easily repudiated. If pundits aren't allowed to give opinions then when Crofty asks Brundle "whose fault was that impact" Brundle would have to say "that's an opinion, I can't comment". If the response is "well that's a sporting opinion not a rules opinion" then that means they can't say a penalty was harsh or that one was warranted when not given (which they do all the time) or in football that any ref's call was wrong or in tennis (before hawk-eye) that a ball was incorrectly called in/out, or in cricket (before DRS) that an LBW call was poor. And so on. Pundits/commentators should not be off limits to talk about the governing bodies of the sports they commentate on. To make that so is authoritarian.

 

[Leg-End]

Are the media biased or just calling it as it is? You could argue that those coming out in support of Horner are the biased ones. The man is an odious little cretin and is the most unlikable team boss I can recall in a long time. I am not fundamentally against Red Bull, I am fundamentally against Horner, and I’m British. There’s no bias there. Just one person seeing another person as extremely unlikable. I don’t dislike Horner because of the nationality of his drivers, I dislike Horner because of Horner. Likewise, I don’t dislike Verstappen because he’s Dutch, I dislike him because of his generally classless and ungracious behaviour, and the fact that for a long time he was a danger to those around him on the track. In my book it’s one thing to be a sore loser, but it takes a special kind of snake to be a sore winner; which is exactly what we’ve seen from Verstappen.

The fact these two won the championship last year with some laughably corrupt race stewarding, all while Horner screamed on the radio, and then to top it all off we found out they cheated on the cost cap too, just goes further to position these guys as pantomime villains. Because of their actions, not their nationality or some inherent bias. That 2021 Verstappen win, will always have an asterisk next to it, and many, myself included, will see it as completely illegitimate.

I don’t think anyone is against the creation of a siege mentality, for the sake of leadership in sports, as we’ve seen many revered managers do the same thing in football. But it’s a fine line between that and purposely stoking division that I think Horner crossed a long time ago.

Horner is a horrible little man, and I think while the sport is richer for the competition Red Bull provide, it is all the poorer for the participation of this particular individual. No matter where you are from.

Nailed it.

 

[slyadams]

Are the media biased or just calling it as it is? You could argue that those coming out in support of Horner are the biased ones. The man is an odious little cretin and is the most unlikable team boss I can recall in a long time. I am not fundamentally against Red Bull, I am fundamentally against Horner, and I’m British. There’s no bias there. Just one person seeing another person as extremely unlikable. I don’t dislike Horner because of the nationality of his drivers, I dislike Horner because of Horner. Likewise, I don’t dislike Verstappen because he’s Dutch, I dislike him because of his generally classless and ungracious behaviour, and the fact that for a long time he was a danger to those around him on the track. In my book it’s one thing to be a sore loser, but it takes a special kind of snake to be a sore winner; which is exactly what we’ve seen from Verstappen.

The fact these two won the championship last year with some laughably corrupt race stewarding, all while Horner screamed on the radio, and then to top it all off we found out they cheated on the cost cap too, just goes further to position these guys as pantomime villains. Because of their actions, not their nationality or some inherent bias. That 2021 Verstappen win, will always have an asterisk next to it, and many, myself included, will see it as completely illegitimate.

I don’t think anyone is against the creation of a siege mentality, for the sake of leadership in sports, as we’ve seen many revered managers do the same thing in football. But it’s a fine line between that and purposely stoking division that I think Horner crossed a long time ago.

Horner is a horrible little man, and I think while the sport is richer for the competition Red Bull provide, it is all the poorer for the participation of this particular individual. No matter where you are from.

 

[goalscholes]

presumably as red bull "allegedly" thought they were accounting for expenses correctly in 2021 they will have continued with the same practices in 2022 and being so far through the season I guess they run a real risk of being over the cap again this year so probably they have cut right back on the catering and even stopped some car developments

Are the media biased or just calling it as it is? You could argue that those coming out in support of Horner are the biased ones. The man is an odious little cretin and is the most unlikable team boss I can recall in a long time. I am not fundamentally against Red Bull, I am fundamentally against Horner, and I’m British. There’s no bias there. Just one person seeing another person as extremely unlikable. I don’t dislike Horner because of the nationality of his drivers, I dislike Horner because of Horner. Likewise, I don’t dislike Verstappen because he’s Dutch, I dislike him because of his generally classless and ungracious behaviour, and the fact that for a long time he was a danger to those around him on the track. In my book it’s one thing to be a sore loser, but it takes a special kind of snake to be a sore winner; which is exactly what we’ve seen from Verstappen.

The fact these two won the championship last year with some laughably corrupt race stewarding, all while Horner screamed on the radio, and then to top it all off we found out they cheated on the cost cap too, just goes further to position these guys as pantomime villains. Because of their actions, not their nationality or some inherent bias. That 2021 Verstappen win, will always have an asterisk next to it, and many, myself included, will see it as completely illegitimate.

I don’t think anyone is against the creation of a siege mentality, for the sake of leadership in sports, as we’ve seen many revered managers do the same thing in football. But it’s a fine line between that and purposely stoking division that I think Horner crossed a long time ago.

Horner is a horrible little man, and I think while the sport is richer for the competition Red Bull provide, it is all the poorer for the participation of this particular individual. No matter where you are from.

Well put. To all but the most blinded RB fans, this should be fairly obvious.

The weird thing about Horner is that he is a win at all costs guy who likes to create a siege mentality. But he also clearly has a massive desire to be liked, a huge ego and can’t understand why people don’t love him.

To Brits, generally the combination is grating. I liked him a lot more when I heard a lot less from him. But I imagine he’s more liked in America, who admire egotism and ruthlessness.

I actually think Max is fine when he is winning, but the second something doesn’t go his way (hasn’t happened much this season) he becomes very petulant and angry at his team. Which again isn’t very endearing.

 

[hp88]

No idea what the race will be like but it’s going to look pretty amazing in the evening.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Zlaatan]

Are the media biased or just calling it as it is? You could argue that those coming out in support of Horner are the biased ones. The man is an odious little cretin and is the most unlikable team boss I can recall in a long time. I am not fundamentally against Red Bull, I am fundamentally against Horner, and I’m British. There’s no bias there. Just one person seeing another person as extremely unlikable. I don’t dislike Horner because of the nationality of his drivers, I dislike Horner because of Horner. Likewise, I don’t dislike Verstappen because he’s Dutch, I dislike him because of his generally classless and ungracious behaviour, and the fact that for a long time he was a danger to those around him on the track. In my book it’s one thing to be a sore loser, but it takes a special kind of snake to be a sore winner; which is exactly what we’ve seen from Verstappen.

The fact these two won the championship last year with some laughably corrupt race stewarding, all while Horner screamed on the radio, and then to top it all off we found out they cheated on the cost cap too, just goes further to position these guys as pantomime villains. Because of their actions, not their nationality or some inherent bias. That 2021 Verstappen win, will always have an asterisk next to it, and many, myself included, will see it as completely illegitimate.

I don’t think anyone is against the creation of a siege mentality, for the sake of leadership in sports, as we’ve seen many revered managers do the same thing in football. But it’s a fine line between that and purposely stoking division that I think Horner crossed a long time ago.

Horner is a horrible little man, and I think while the sport is richer for the competition Red Bull provide, it is all the poorer for the participation of this particular individual. No matter where you are from.

I get if you don't like them and that's fine, but I truly don't understand why the actions of the race stewards or Horner screaming on the radio to them could ever be a reason for it, as if he (and Max?) had control over Masi while Toto didn't or that he shouldn't have done what every single team boss did and had been given the opportunity to do for the entire season. You simply didn't like the outcome in the end, which is understandable, but to say that it further Horner's and Max's positions as pantomime villains just makes no sense at all since they didn't have anything more to do with what happened than Toto and Lewis did.

The same can be said for inserting Max into the cost cap thing which, unless he moonlights as the teams head accountant, makes even less sense.

 

[goalscholes]

I get if you don't like them and that's fine, but I truly don't understand why the actions of the race stewards or Horner screaming on the radio to them could ever be a reason for it, as if he (and Max?) had control over Masi while Toto didn't or that he shouldn't have done what every single team boss did and had been given the opportunity to do for the entire season. You simply didn't like the outcome in the end, which is understandable, but to say that it further Horner's and Max's positions as pantomime villains just makes no sense at all since they didn't have anything more to do with what happened than Toto and Lewis did.

The same can be said for inserting Max into the cost cap thing which, unless he moonlights as the teams head accountant, makes even less sense.

Firstly, can this thread stop avoid responding to discussions around RB/ Horner by saying 'yeah but Mercedes'? And vice versa. It cheapens the thread.

It is for example possible, to think (as I do) that Wolf AND Horner are dislikeable (although the latter is more so).

If Pep and Klopp are screaming in the fourth official's face, and the ref gives a dubious penalty to Liverpool, it's a really stupid argument to say 'well actually, Klopp is likeable because Pep was also screaming in the linesman's face, and it's what good managers do'.

Secondly, of course the outcome matters. All managers encourage their players to push the rules to gain an advantage, but of course (unless you support that team) you're going to dislike the manager who gets rewarded for rule breaking far more than others, and gets given decisions that are clearly against the spirit and wording of the rulebook. Fairness around rules is incredibly important in sport.

 

[hobbers]

I get if you don't like them and that's fine, but I truly don't understand why the actions of the race stewards or Horner screaming on the radio to them could ever be a reason for it, as if he (and Max?) had control over Masi while Toto didn't or that he shouldn't have done what every single team boss did and had been given the opportunity to do for the entire season. You simply didn't like the outcome in the end, which is understandable, but to say that it further Horner's and Max's positions as pantomime villains just makes no sense at all since they didn't have anything more to do with what happened than Toto and Lewis did.

The same can be said for inserting Max into the cost cap thing which, unless he moonlights as the teams head accountant, makes even less sense.

Dont look for rationality where there is none to be found.

 

[RoadTrip]

Dont look for rationality where there is none to be found.

The thing is, posts like this don’t help your cause. You can’t just conclude that anyone who doesn’t agree with you in this thread are either biased / irrational / hypnotised by the media. Well, you can, but you’re not going to achieve anything by it.

 

[hobbers]

The thing is, posts like this don’t help your cause. You can’t just conclude that anyone who doesn’t agree with you in this thread are either biased / irrational / hypnotised by the media. Well, you can, but you’re not going to achieve anything by it.

I don’t think anything like that. There are 2 or 3 clearly very bitter posters who post risible bile. Everyone else is fine.

For instance, there’s a big difference between disliking Horner for his personality and hating him and Max for things out of their control. And regurgitating nasty gatekeeping gunk from the likes of Matthew Syed.

 

[muller]

Are the media biased or just calling it as it is? You could argue that those coming out in support of Horner are the biased ones. The man is an odious little cretin and is the most unlikable team boss I can recall in a long time. I am not fundamentally against Red Bull, I am fundamentally against Horner, and I’m British. There’s no bias there. Just one person seeing another person as extremely unlikable. I don’t dislike Horner because of the nationality of his drivers, I dislike Horner because of Horner. Likewise, I don’t dislike Verstappen because he’s Dutch, I dislike him because of his generally classless and ungracious behaviour, and the fact that for a long time he was a danger to those around him on the track. In my book it’s one thing to be a sore loser, but it takes a special kind of snake to be a sore winner; which is exactly what we’ve seen from Verstappen.

The fact these two won the championship last year with some laughably corrupt race stewarding, all while Horner screamed on the radio, and then to top it all off we found out they cheated on the cost cap too, just goes further to position these guys as pantomime villains. Because of their actions, not their nationality or some inherent bias. That 2021 Verstappen win, will always have an asterisk next to it, and many, myself included, will see it as completely illegitimate.

I don’t think anyone is against the creation of a siege mentality, for the sake of leadership in sports, as we’ve seen many revered managers do the same thing in football. But it’s a fine line between that and purposely stoking division that I think Horner crossed a long time ago.

Horner is a horrible little man, and I think while the sport is richer for the competition Red Bull provide, it is all the poorer for the participation of this particular individual. No matter where you are from.

Amazing post. Really well put. Will always be a massive asterisk next to any race win and title from the last 2 years and the next few at least.

 

[slyadams]

I don’t think anything like that. There are 2 or 3 clearly very bitter posters who post risible bile. Everyone else is fine.

For instance, there’s a big difference between disliking Horner for his personality and hating him and Max for things out of their control. And regurgitating nasty gatekeeping gunk from the likes of Matthew Syed.

No one dislikes Max or Horner because of what Massi did, they’re disliked in that context because of their reaction to it. Imagine how respectable and classy it would’ve been to come out and said “We don’t think the rules were applied correctly but there’s not much we can do about it. We appreciate why Mercedes are frustrated and we congratulate Lewis and them on a fantastic season. We’ll fully support any FIA investigation into the result”. They’d have lost nothing for this but being graceful and sporting is genuinely beyond Horner.

 

[hobbers]

No one dislikes Max or Horner because of what Massi did, they’re disliked in that context because of their reaction to it. Imagine how respectable and classy it would’ve been to come out and said “We don’t think the rules were applied correctly but there’s not much we can do about it. We appreciate why Mercedes are frustrated and we congratulate Lewis and them on a fantastic season. We’ll fully support any FIA investigation into the result”. They’d have lost nothing for this but being graceful and sporting is genuinely beyond Horner.

“I can understand that, if you’re a Lewis or a Mercedes fan, you’d feel pretty aggrieved by the events in Abu Dhabi. If you’re a Max fan you feel it’s redemption for what happened earlier in the year. Sport is always going to be polarising."

If you think RB's reaction in the aftermath of winning the world title should have been anything other than celebration then you're putting laughably absurd expectations on them, that you certainly wouldn't put on Mercedes were they in that position.

Would probably help some people look a bit less blinkered if, every time they want to rage against Red Bull/Horner/Max, they stop and ask themselves "would I think the same way if Mercedes did this?". Because on the evidence of this thread, 9 times out of 10 the answer would be no.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

“I can understand that, if you’re a Lewis or a Mercedes fan, you’d feel pretty aggrieved by the events in Abu Dhabi. If you’re a Max fan you feel it’s redemption for what happened earlier in the year. Sport is always going to be polarising."

If you think RB's reaction in the aftermath of winning the world title should have been anything other than celebration then you're putting laughably absurd expectations on them, that you certainly wouldn't put on Mercedes were they in that position.

Would probably help some people look a bit less blinkered if, every time they want to rage against Red Bull/Horner/Max, they stop and ask themselves "would I think the same way if Mercedes did this?". Because on the evidence of this thread, 9 times out of 10 the answer would be no.

Correct. Silverstone says hi.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Correct. Silverstone says hi.

Max should have given more space or backed out btw

 

[pacifictheme]

Comparing Silverstone and Abu Dhabi is laughable at best but expecting red bull to do anything but celebrate is weird.

 

[Amar__]

 

[Zlaatan]

Firstly, can this thread stop avoid responding to discussions around RB/ Horner by saying 'yeah but Mercedes'? And vice versa. It cheapens the thread.

It is for example possible, to think (as I do) that Wolf AND Horner are dislikeable (although the latter is more so).

If Pep and Klopp are screaming in the fourth official's face, and the ref gives a dubious penalty to Liverpool, it's a really stupid argument to say 'well actually, Klopp is likeable because Pep was also screaming in the linesman's face, and it's what good managers do'.

Secondly, of course the outcome matters. All managers encourage their players to push the rules to gain an advantage, but of course (unless you support that team) you're going to dislike the manager who gets rewarded for rule breaking far more than others, and gets given decisions that are clearly against the spirit and wording of the rulebook. Fairness around rules is incredibly important in sport.

I didn't say that Horner is likable for any reason nor do I think I made any sort of 'yeah but Merc' argument, if anything it was more of a 'they did nothing wrong just like Merc'. Anyway, my entire point was that no team boss let alone any driver broke any rules for screaming at the stewards since they had all done that, and were allowed to do it, the entire season. The only one who pushed any rules was Masi, so hating on Horner and especially Max for any of that doesn't make sense to me.

I agree that in some cases the outcome does matter when it comes to whether you dislike the people benefiting from it or not, but 99% of the time that's decided by bias and bias alone. To call Max and Horner villains because they benefited from Masi's shit call only shows you're biased against them, it just can't be used as an example of how they cheated or how they were rewarded for breaking the rules, because they didn't do that.

 

[RoadTrip]

Correct. Silverstone says hi.

Comparing two completely different things. But if you want to bring this up, Hamilton evidentially asked how Max was. What did Max do when he drive right over Hamilton at Monza?

 

[RoadTrip]

“I can understand that, if you’re a Lewis or a Mercedes fan, you’d feel pretty aggrieved by the events in Abu Dhabi. If you’re a Max fan you feel it’s redemption for what happened earlier in the year. Sport is always going to be polarising."

If you think RB's reaction in the aftermath of winning the world title should have been anything other than celebration then you're putting laughably absurd expectations on them, that you certainly wouldn't put on Mercedes were they in that position.

Would probably help some people look a bit less blinkered if, every time they want to rage against Red Bull/Horner/Max, they stop and ask themselves "would I think the same way if Mercedes did this?". Because on the evidence of this thread, 9 times out of 10 the answer would be no.

The problem with this though is that all you’re doing is speculating. Every time someone says something bad about Max or Red Bull your first response is to deflect to something Mercedes did wrong. It doesn’t work. And you seem to then assume that because of that, you infer that people would react differently if the roles were reversed and Hamilton had won the title the way Max did. You have no basis for that assumption and many have clearly said that regardless the situation was not appropriate and it wouldn’t have been if any other combination of drivers were involved, including the two who were the other way round.

Your whole argument stems from the assumption that people are biased simply because they don’t agree with you. It’s just flawed.

On the point about celebration, absolutely. Don’t and wouldn’t have expected RB not to celebrate that night. It’s a tough season which they won, regardless of how, they’re well within their right. But as someone pointed out, it’s not about what happened that day. Or even perhaps the few days after. It’s how they’ve behaved since.

 

[RoadTrip]

I didn't say that Horner is likable for any reason nor do I think I made any sort of 'yeah but Merc' argument, if anything it was more of a 'they did nothing wrong just like Merc'. Anyway, my entire point was that no team boss let alone any driver broke any rules for screaming at the stewards since they had all done that, and were allowed to do it, the entire season. The only one who pushed any rules was Masi, so hating on Horner and especially Max for any of that doesn't make sense to me.

I agree that in some cases the outcome does matter when it comes to whether you dislike the people benefiting from it or not, but 99% of the time that's decided by bias and bias alone. To call Max and Horner villains because they benefited from Masi's shit call only shows you're biased against them, it just can't be used as an example of how they cheated or how they were rewarded for breaking the rules, because they didn't do that.

I think someone already clarified this. It’s how they behaved subsequently. And not after the race or a few days after, they’re well entitled to spend that time celebrating. But after that, they could have handled it much better and in a much more endearing way.

 

[Zlaatan]

I think someone already clarified this. It’s how they behaved subsequently. And not after the race or a few days after, they’re well entitled to spend that time celebrating. But after that, they could have handled it much better and in a much more endearing way.

That might be the case for some but it's far from the impression I've gotten from the majority who are whining about this. It's all talk about asterisks and cheaters, not that they weren't humble enough after the season ended.

 

[Leg-End]

Silverstone 2021, the reverse Uno card of any Abu Dhabi 2021 discussion it seems. Didn't work then, doesn't work now.

 

[slyadams]

“I can understand that, if you’re a Lewis or a Mercedes fan, you’d feel pretty aggrieved by the events in Abu Dhabi. If you’re a Max fan you feel it’s redemption for what happened earlier in the year. Sport is always going to be polarising."

If you think RB's reaction in the aftermath of winning the world title should have been anything other than celebration then you're putting laughably absurd expectations on them, that you certainly wouldn't put on Mercedes were they in that position.

Would probably help some people look a bit less blinkered if, every time they want to rage against Red Bull/Horner/Max, they stop and ask themselves "would I think the same way if Mercedes did this?". Because on the evidence of this thread, 9 times out of 10 the answer would be no.

Again, you reply to something with a glib and reductive response. Did I say they couldn't celebrate? No, to suggest otherwise is laughable? I said they could have taken a classier overall response to the situation than "any doesn't mean all" and the continual implication that any mention of the rules being bent/broken was a personal attack against Max and/or Horner, a position you've repeated in this thread. I feel like you are incapable of understanding any shades of grey at all on this subject.

Sport is littered with sportspeople being good winners and consoling, even commiserating, with their opposition, especially after close finishes. Horner, and seemingly Max, seem beyond that level of sportsmanship. Max I can understand, he's young, he's grown up in a very unusual environment and seems to have matured greatly this year, but Horner is a grown man with abundant world experience, he should know better.

 

[slyadams]

Silverstone 2021, the reverse Uno card of any Abu Dhabi 2021 discussion it seems. Didn't work then, doesn't work now.

Monza, slapping a reverse on a reverse.

 

[keithsingleton]

You really didn’t address anything I said with anything even approaching a convincing rebuttal. The refrain of living in someone’s head “rent free” is an overused trope, deployed by respondents who have little in the way of a factual or compelling argument, so instead resort to terms of belittlement popularised by sheeple on social media. It’s use in this instance is no surprise as you rolled it out previously in this debate in an attempt to shut down other posters.

With regards to you not saying the British press were against foreign drivers because they were foreign, your words were:

“The British media were biased against Schumacher, and Alonso, and Vettel, and Rosberg, and now Verstappen. You'd have to be living in cuckoo land to not recognise that.”

Which certainly reads an an implication towards xenophobia. Far be it from me to say elements of the British media aren’t xenophobic, because they certainly are, the insinuation in this case is clearly that Red Bull face bias because Verstappen is Dutch. Not because Verstappen and Horner have acted poorly on numerous occasions and been the beneficiaries of corrupt and incompetent stewardship, as well as actively participated in subverting the financial regulations governing the sport. Both of which bestowed championship winning advantages on them.

If having a contrarian opinion on the popularity, morality, or likability of anyone automatically means that person is living “rent free” in the opiner’s head, then I suppose we must all have a roster of tenants.

Could listen to your all day, so eloquently put too. I wish I could put your argue/debate across so well but can’t Great post.

 

[hobbers]

Your whole argument stems from the assumption that people are biased simply because they don’t agree with you. It’s just flawed.

You need to reread everything a lot more carefully if this is what you take from the last couple of pages. What argument are you even talking about?

Again, you reply to something with a glib and reductive response. Did I say they couldn't celebrate? No, to suggest otherwise is laughable? I said they could have taken a classier overall response to the situation than "any doesn't mean all" and the continual implication that any mention of the rules being bent/broken was a personal attack against Max and/or Horner, a position you've repeated in this thread. I feel like you are incapable of understanding any shades of grey at all on this subject.

Where?

 

[RoadTrip]

That might be the case for some but it's far from the impression I've gotten from the majority who are whining about this. It's all talk about asterisks and cheaters, not that they weren't humble enough after the season ended.

Well hang on, now you’ve changed the discussion. Saying there is a an asterisks doesn’t mean you hate Max and Horner. It’s just the reality after what happened. You can say both. As for cheaters, well they went over the budget. I’m struggling to understand how staying those things means a) someone must be biased, b) mean that someone wouldn’t think the same thing if it were any other team and c) must just be whining.